City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Markets: Display Best Bid/Offer prices for WW/BM items

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-22 19:09 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post



ok, you obviously still do not understand how this will hurt the market. go ahead and list for 1, now everyone will be to insure they get the best price until they get down to the low ball bids. now, when people see things selling for 1 guess what they will bid, 1. with the system that we have now, everyone has a chance at getting a good price. with your system, everyone gets screwed. this idea will effectively drive everyone away from the market. good luck getting what you want then.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
ok, you obviously still do not understand how this will hurt the market. go ahead and list for 1, now everyone will be to insure they get the best price until they get down to the low ball bids. now, when people see things selling for 1 guess what they will bid, 1. with the system that we have now, everyone has a chance at getting a good price. with your system, everyone gets screwed. this idea will effectively drive everyone away from the market. good luck getting what you want then.
I am unsure how two people reaching a mutually acceptable transaction both are "screwed".
Players do post items for sale at a very low amount in the current market.
My example does not suggest that every player will post their item for a very low amount.

If you need further explanation you are going to have to ask a "market guru".

*EDIT* I have decided to compose a list of possible "market gurus" for you to ask about this suggestion in hopes that they may be able to educate your opinion on the subject.

Explaining to them City of Heroes and its market and this suggestion may be too time consuming. If they are willing to learn about the market and how it works to answer this question then that would be fantastic.

However, I suspect they would not be able to. I suggest asking them "What would a marketplace be like where buyers and sellers discussed purchase price? Would that market function?"

Here's the list:
http://econ-www.mit.edu/faculty/
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty
http://econ.as.nyu.edu/object/econ.staff
http://economics.uchicago.edu/faculty.shtml
http://www.swarthmore.edu/x15604.xml

I can provide more if necessary.

 

Posted

I may be missing something here in all this, but I've seen numerous mentions in this thread of folks who could not afford the listing fee for their drops. This confuses me somewhat.

A listing fee is split when you post an item for sale: You pay half when you post it for sale, and half when you claim the influence. Further, because of the way that our market works, I know that I can get a very rare drop (say, a Deific Weapon) and offer it for sale for 250 inf. This makes the listing fee ridiculously low (something on the order of 7-13 inf). Finally, once posted at that price, it will be sold (usually immedately) to the highest bidder, and any remaining fees deducted from the sale.

It seems to me that you only hurt yourself if you sell really high. It's not a matter of impatience, really. We have a blind market. Lowest bids go to the highest offers, and it's true whether you're buying or selling. That's just how it works.

This understanding (coupled with a never-sell-less-than-the-vendor-will-buy-it-for mentality) has made it very easy for me to accumulate lots of inf on many, many toons. But, I readily admit, I could be wrong--and my understanding of how this works could be fundamentally flawed (I am not an economist). If it works differently, I'm a willing and eager student, and I'd be happy to be corrected.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantMikey View Post
I may be missing something here in all this, but I've seen numerous mentions in this thread of folks who could not afford the listing fee for their drops. This confuses me somewhat.

A listing fee is split when you post an item for sale: You pay half when you post it for sale, and half when you claim the influence. Further, because of the way that our market works, I know that I can get a very rare drop (say, a Deific Weapon) and offer it for sale for 250 inf. This makes the listing fee ridiculously low (something on the order of 7-13 inf). Finally, once posted at that price, it will be sold (usually immedately) to the highest bidder, and any remaining fees deducted from the sale.

It seems to me that you only hurt yourself if you sell really high. It's not a matter of impatience, really. We have a blind market. Lowest bids go to the highest offers, and it's true whether you're buying or selling. That's just how it works.

This understanding (coupled with a never-sell-less-than-the-vendor-will-buy-it-for mentality) has made it very easy for me to accumulate lots of inf on many, many toons. But, I readily admit, I could be wrong--and my understanding of how this works could be fundamentally flawed (I am not an economist). If it works differently, I'm a willing and eager student, and I'd be happy to be corrected.
Here's the thing, if they start showing the list prices it will stop being a blind market. Players will start looking for the best bargain rather than placing a high bid and walking away.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
Here's the thing, if they start showing the list prices it will stop being a blind market. Players will start looking for the best bargain rather than placing a high bid and walking away.
I completely agree, actually. I think the blind market works as is, and should not be touched.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by forbin_project View Post
Players will start looking for the best bargain rather than placing a high bid and walking away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forbin_project View Post
You'll see people selling things for 2, 3, 4 times the amount listed at the market because there will always be people that have to have something immediately.
Contradiction

Players look for a bargain. Instead of paying 2, 3, or 4 times the price off the market they will place a bid on the market for maybe 1.2, or 1.1 times the price.

Competition is the basis of economics and Supply and Demand. When buyers compete for few items they raise their bid price.

 

Posted

tl:dr
I do not understand the point several of you are trying to make. I am trying to understand your point. Please, fill out an example at the bottom as to what would happen so I can learn what you mean. Here is the specific post I am referring to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
/unsigned

This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller.

For example a player gets an extremely valuable drop that normally sells for 50 million but for whatever reason he can only afford to set a price of 2-3 million. under your suggestion instead of getting the true value of the drop, you'd be able to snag it for far less than it's worth.

I believe I count at least three people who agree with this post. Here are some links to what appear to me to be agreement. If I am wrong about your agreement I apoligize. Please let me know if I am mistaken:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...74#post2642874
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...15#post2643215
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...50#post2645950

I am begging you, please, show me an example of how a market would look with changes described in the original post in place. I'll make a form for you. I'll even make an example myself. I understand you will be making numbers up out of thin air. I will be making up numbers out of thin air as well. Just please, give it your best guess and you can say "I'm estimating here" where you are etc.

Current Situation
Pretend these are daily averages.
Respec Recipes. Villainside
41 For Sale. 451 Bidding
Last 5: 138M, 138M, 180M, 140M, 138M
Amount Sold daily average: 10 (3 of the last 5 were listed today, 11 hours into the day. I'll just assume later is more peak hours. Total estimation on my part. I made this number up)
Amount found daily average: 20. Total estimation.

Display Bid/List Amount -- My estimation
Respec Recipe. Villainside
40 for sale. 300 Bidding
Last 5: 165M, 167M, 165M, 160M, 167M
Amount Sold daily average: 10
Amount found daily average: 20
Current highest bid: 162M
Current lowest list: 167M
Amount Sold off market: 2
Prices of all sold off market: 150M, 155M

Quote:
Here's a blank for you to fill in. Just write over the _____s. This is what you think Respec Recipes will look like on villainside if list amounts and bid amounts were displayed
Respec Recipe. Villainside
____ for sale. ____ bidding
Last 5: ___, ___, ___, ___, ___
Amount sold daily average: ____
Amount found daily average: ____
Current highest bid: ___
Current lowest list: ___
Amount Sold off market: ___
Prices of all sold off market: ___, ___, ...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
Contradiction

Players look for a bargain. Instead of paying 2, 3, or 4 times the price off the market they will place a bid on the market for maybe 1.2, or 1.1 times the price.

Competition is the basis of economics and Supply and Demand. When buyers compete for few items they raise their bid price.
The problem is if folks can't get a good price for their items, they will sell them off market. There has to be an incentive to waste your time putting stuff on the market for there to be stuff or buyers to buy. Supply just doesn't magically show up on the markets. Someone has to be willing to put their stuff ON THE MARKET.

If they can get a better price off market, they will sell OFF MARKET. See the PVP IOs being sold off market as a recent example.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
The problem is if folks can't get a good price for their items, they will sell them off market. There has to be an incentive to waste your time putting stuff on the market for there to be stuff or buyers to buy. Supply just doesn't magically show up on the markets. Someone has to be willing to put their stuff ON THE MARKET.

If they can get a better price off market, they will sell OFF MARKET. See the PVP IOs being sold off market as a recent example.
Fill out the form. Show me how its possible and why people wouldn't use the market.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
Fill out the form. Show me how its possible and why people wouldn't use the market.
No need to fill out the form when there ALREADY IS an example of this. PVP IOs.

Even with them selling at the inf cap of 2 billion inf ON the market there are ALREADY NUMEROUS people selling off market for 3-4 billion. Why? Because they discovered they could simply MAKE more by selling off market.

If there isn't an incentive to sell items on the market, folks won't do it.

Many pvpers and market folks PREDICTED this.

Do you think folks just put stuff up on the market because they are nice?

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
No need to fill out the form when there ALREADY IS an example of this. PVP IOs.

Even with them selling at the inf cap of 2 billion inf ON the market there are ALREADY NUMEROUS people selling off market for 3-4 billion.
I am aware that people sell PvP IOs off the market. People sell PvP IOs off the market because they are unable to get the price they want on the market.

What stops players from getting the price they want on the market when List amounts and Bid amounts are displayed?

The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If you think otherwise show me. Make a demonstration. Show me what an item would look like, bid amounts, list amounts, and transactions off market.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
I am aware that people sell PvP IOs off the market. People sell PvP IOs off the market because they are unable to get the price they want on the market.

What stops players from getting the price they want on the market when List amounts and Bid amounts are displayed?

The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If you think otherwise show me. Make a demonstration. Show me what an item would look like, bid amounts, list amounts, and transactions off market.
Right. People sell them off market because they can get MORE for off market.

Full stop.

People put stuff on the market because they want to make money. Your system would make that more difficult. Make it harder to inf via the market and you kill any incentive there is to sell items on the market. Worse case items would become more expensive, as folks would no longer undercut each other, they would list consecutively higher and higher prices.

The current blind system keeps everyone guessing and competitive by helping to keep prices low. Your system would be stupendously easy to manipulate.

Actually you know what I've changed my mind, go ahead and list them.

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Right. People sell them off market because they can get MORE for off market.

Full stop.

People put stuff on the market because they want to make money. Your system would make that more difficult. Make it harder to inf via the market and you kill any incentive there is to sell items on the market. Worse case items would become more expensive, as folks would no longer undercut each other, they would list consecutively higher and higher prices.

The current blind system keeps everyone guessing and competitive by helping to keep prices low. Your system would be stupendously easy to manipulate.

Actually you know what I've changed my mind, go ahead and list them.
Everything you have said in this thread so far is absolutely and utterly insane. Put some numbers to your claims. Show me an example.

*EDIT* I don't understand why anything you are saying is true. Demonstrate it to me with an example. Educate me.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
Everything you have said in this thread so far is absolutely and utterly insane. Put some numbers to your claims. Show me an example.
Nah that's okay. I agree with you now.


I've got my market schemes ready for when they implement this.

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Nah that's okay. I agree with you now.


I've got my market schemes ready for when they implement this.
No. Fill out the example. Show me.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
No. Fill out the example. Show me.

Wouldn't be a very ebil marketer if I revealed my plan now would I?

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

You don't have a plan. Your plan doesn't work.

People will place bids on the market. These bids will compete with each other.
People will list items for sale on the market. These lists will compete with each other.

Everything will go on like it normally does.
When someone lists an item low it will sell to the highest current bidder.
Why pay off market high prices when you can place a bid on the market for less?

Show me, with an example, why my statements don't work.

*EDIT*
Or hell, look at my example and tell me how everything is wrong.

 

Posted

Well, let me see, first we have someone who thinks that being able to see bids/sales figures will be a good thing. Next we have people who are very educated in the market system and how it works explaining how it won't work, and these people have been pretty much on the mark when it comes to guessing what will happen when things change. I have to go with the market peeps on this one.

What will happen is people will bid by increments of 1 to be the first in line. This then causes things to go off market because of "instant gratification" for both parties involved. And before you go saying that they will list it, please tell me that you would list a purple or even just a halfway decent IO if the highest bid was 2001. Wait a new bid came in, 2002. Wait another new one... oh, just 2003. Knowing I can get a much higher price for the item, I go off market and sell immediately for what I wanted thus shafting anyone on the market for the item.

And please, before you go saying that placing things on the market for 1 will net you the highest bid, I will argue that that is not always the case. I have tested this before and can tell you that if anyone has a bid for 1 up and you list something for 1, you stand a very good chance of getting 1 for your item. I will admit I haven't tried this for about 2 yrs but that is how i remember the market working with bids/listings. I appologize if this part has changed.

 

Posted

Thank you for showing me your support in the first paragraph.

However, in the second paragraph, why is there a person paying you a lot of money off the market and not bidding anywhere near that amount on the market?

In the third paragraph, that is changed and I don't believe it ever occurred. The highest bid goes to the lowest list if the bid is higher than the list. There are "odd things" that happen when two people bid the exact same amount.

 

Posted

Actually, the first paragraph was not meant to show you support, but the people that have actually tried to get you to undertand what will happen with a non blind market system. If you do not understand how this will effect the markets in a negative way then there is no need to carry on this discussion.

 

Posted

Why is there a person paying you a lot of money off the market and not bidding anywhere near that amount on the market?

 

Posted

I will bite one last time then that is it. If you do not understand that no supply and all low ball bids for the item will drive off market sales, then you know nothing of what you speak. In your system, it allows the buyer to see the highest bid, in this case we will go back to my example, a highly sought after io/recipe. It doesn't have to be a bid capped io/recipe, it could be an LoTG: def/+increased recharge.

Buyer goes to market, sees 100 bids and the highest is 2,000,000. The buyer seeing this knows that a seller would not list the item seeing these numbers. The buyer asks around if anyone has one and low and behold, someone does and it is even on the same server same side. Buyer and seller reach an agreed price and that is all it takes. Does that clarify why your idea won't work to help the market?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fing M C View Post
Buyer goes to market, sees 100 bids and the highest is 2,000,000. The buyer seeing this knows that a seller would not list the item seeing these numbers. The buyer asks around if anyone has one and low and behold, someone does and it is even on the same server same side. Buyer and seller reach an agreed price and that is all it takes. Does that clarify why your idea won't work to help the market?
The buyer sees the highest bid of 2,000,000 and bids 50,000,000 over top of it. Or 100M, or 200M.

Why doesn't the buyer, who paid more off market, bid more on the market?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriffer View Post
The buyer sees the highest bid of 2,000,000 and bids 50,000,000 over top of it. Or 100M, or 200M.

Why doesn't the buyer, who paid more off market, bid more on the market?
Why on earth would ANYONE who sees the highest bid of 2mil bid 50 mil over top?

I mean besides being a moron?

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

[QUOTE=NordBlast;2642231

It would streamline player's interaction with market, by allowing to make instant decision whether to go into "BUY/SELL IT NOW" mode or not.


Discuss...[/QUOTE]

Okay, so you want to add something to the market to allow players a snap decision about buying and selling stuff on the spot.
Hmm.

  1. The last 5 or 6 sales are listed for each item - including the date (some may not have this if they have been off the market for a while).
  2. The market lists how many people are bidding and how many items are up for sale.
Both of those should give you a pretty good idea of what is going on "right now" in the market.

I think what would really improve the market - in the minds of casual gamers - is a little more patience and a little less "Gotta get them all right now!"
If you HAVE TO sell it now, then you are going to get a lower price than if you posted and waited unless here are a zillion bids and none of the item on the market (and you might even still not get a high of a price as you could have if you would have posted it for higher than what it ended up selling for and waited for someone to pay what you were asking for it)
If you HAVE TO have it now, get ready to shell out the big bucks unless there are 0 bids and a zillion on the market.