Tank V Scrapper - damage comparison?
By
Axion_Cortex,
Posted on: 2010-02-22 07:33 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Actually, with that particular powerset combo the scrapper won't be beating you out by that much. SD/SS and SD/DM are among the highest damging tank powerset combos you can have. |
Originally Posted by Psiphon
Hi all,
I've got level 50 Tanks and Scrappers and I know that Scrappers have higher damage modifiers and damage cap. My question is - realistically, without external buffs (soloing) how much damage will each output? I've got a L50 SD/SS Tanker and with AAO and stacked Rage he does great damage, by how much would the current FOTM FM/SD outdamage me? If it's easier to work out how does a SD/FM Tank compare to an FM/SD Scrapper? There are lots of posts on SD Scrappers and how great they are but I've seen no real comparison data compared to the Tank counterpart. Thanks |
I don't know the numbers, but it shouldn't be too huge of a margin. Yes, the scrapper will outdamage you, but it's not as wide a gap as some other powersets.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
Hi all,
I've got level 50 Tanks and Scrappers and I know that Scrappers have higher damage modifiers and damage cap. My question is - realistically, without external buffs (soloing) how much damage will each output? I've got a L50 SD/SS Tanker and with AAO and stacked Rage he does great damage, by how much would the current FOTM FM/SD outdamage me? If it's easier to work out, how does a SD/FM Tank compare to an FM/SD Scrapper? There are lots of posts on SD Scrappers and how great they are but I've seen no real comparison data compared to the Tank counterpart. Thanks |
On a level 50 tanker, Foot Stomp with 5 enemies in range of AAO and double stacked rage does 242.7 points of damage.
On a level 50 Scrapper, Fire Sword Circle with 5 enemies in range of AAO does 302.9 points of damage.
Both attacks have the same recharge, and a fire scrapper can also use build-up and can critical hit on top of that. Scrapper shield charge will do about 50% more damage. And ST damage output using the top chain of each toon favors the fire scrapper even more.
Fire Melee Scrapper wins vs the SS tanker in damage. But then, it's supposed to... no surprise here.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
If it's easier to work out, how does a SD/FM Tank compare to an FM/SD Scrapper?
I'd lay bets that SD/FM out guns FM/SD. With SD/SS that would have long sustainable peaks and a short trough in damage where as SD/FM should have short peaks and long comparative troughs but, those peaks should be good. Down to the player to optimize though.
Worried that I'd turn nerdy I've avoided numbers since 2007 XD
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Answering this one is complicated (for me at least, as I don't normally run DPS comparisons). I can give you some guidance, though.
Side-by-side, most Scrapper powers deal basically 141% of the same power used by a Tanker. Also, Scrapper self-damage-buffs (Build Up, AAO) are 125% of the strength of the same power used by a Tanker.
However, currently Scrappers don't have SS, so there's really no equivalent to Rage or Footstomp for a Scrapper. (If we ever see this ported, it's my opinion it is not likely to be a straight port.) In terms of AoE carnage, this helps close the gap between a SD/SS and a FM/SD. How much I can't say precisely without much more analysis, but I don't think you'll feel like a slouch.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Sorry to go "kind of" off topic...what is the difference in DPS between Martial Arts and Super Strength?
About 1 DPS tweaked to the walls if comparing scrapper MA to what would be scrapper SS.
About 40 DPS in SS favor if using SOs.
Give or take.
Doublestacking rage hurts in the long run from what I saw while MA at massive levels of recharge does very well.
Be well, people of CoH.
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What about Scrapper MA compared to Tanker SS without double stack rage.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
About 1 DPS tweaked to the walls if comparing scrapper MA to what would be scrapper SS.
About 40 DPS in SS favor if using SOs. Give or take. Doublestacking rage hurts in the long run from what I saw while MA at massive levels of recharge does very well. |
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I thought I had crunched those out at one point, but I'm not finding the spreadsheet.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
What about Scrapper MA compared to Tanker SS without double stack rage.
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Gut answer? No tank will ever compare to a scrapper on damage output when comparing equally IOed out builds.
Tanks lower damage cap and complete lack of critical hits means the scrapper wins.
That doublestacked rage, thing... fully double stacked, that means whatever DPS you calculate needs to be reduced by 1/6th of the total due to Rage's crash. Question is, what's better? 80% buff and no damage output 1/12th of the time or 160% buff and no damage output 1/6th of the time?
Be well, people of CoH.
Hey Bill,
Can you explain (in the simplest terms possible) how double stacked rage hurts in the long run?
Not being snarky or disagreeing, just wanna understand some more about game mechanix etc.
Thanks for taking the time.
Feel The Burn
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I disagree on this.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I thought I had crunched those out at one point, but I'm not finding the spreadsheet.
Gut answer? No tank will ever compare to a scrapper on damage output when comparing equally IOed out builds. Tanks lower damage cap and complete lack of critical hits means the scrapper wins. |
It's not only about the damage cap and crits it's also about having the tools to deliver the damage.
My SD/SS out damages my DM/SR over a mission because DM/SR hasn't got the AoE of SD/SS.
So there are exceptions
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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I have a very heavily IO-ed FM/SD scrapper. There's not a single tank out there that I know of that can compete with her in terms of raw damage.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I'd lay bets that SD/FM out guns FM/SD.
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Even then, while that SD/SS tank will probably push out more aoe damage thanks to foot stomp, rage and AAO, it will not be getting anywhere near the single target damage output of the DM/SR scrapper. Unless that DM scrapper has fireball in which case his AoE will probably catch up if not overtake the tank's.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
I disagree on this.
It's not only about the damage cap and crits it's also about having the tools to deliver the damage. My SD/SS out damages my DM/SR over a mission because DM/SR hasn't got the AoE of SD/SS. So there are exceptions |
And the DM/SD scrapper with fireball will kick the carp out of both of them.
Be well, people of CoH.
I would agree in terms of "raw" damage, a Scrapper will win out every time. But in reality, you have to deal with things like raduis of attack powers, recharge, secondary effects, survivbility etc. A lot also depends on the primary and secondary combos and what you want to do with your tank.
A lot of comparisons look at relative strenghts for things like TF's and farming. In my experience I've had more success farming with my SD/SS tank than I have with my SD/Fire scrapper. It may seem like a minor detail, but the huge radius of Footstomp and its frequent availability (high recharge build) along with very good single-target damage make it easier and more effective (for me) to farm with.
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I read what I wrote, I did write it the wrong way around. I should take more time to proof read myself.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
I have a very heavily IO-ed FM/SD scrapper. There's not a single tank out there that I know of that can compete with her in terms of raw damage.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Ah, that makes sense. I didn't figure you'd think that way, so I thought the comment was odd.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I read what I wrote, I did write it the wrong way around. I should take more time to proof read myself.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Ah, that makes sense. I didn't figure you'd think that way, so I thought the comment was odd.
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Crumbs, d'ya live on the boards or what?
It was 3 years ago when I was arguing how no Hero AT beats a Scrapper in terms of "Raw!" DPS. Scrappers have the 1.25 mod while Tankers are at 0.7. I can't believe I wrote that the wrong way around.
*Puts Barbed wire around thighs and wanders into a dark dank empty room with a short cat of nine tails*
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
*Joins PETND*
(People for the Ethical Treatment of New Dawn)
Yeah, my money is on the scrapper. If you are going to compare AoE specialists with ST specialists, you're going to come to different conclusions. At the same time, a DM/SD scrapper can theoretically put out 300 DPS single-target, which should be more than a SD/SS brute is capable of.
FM/SD > SD/FM
Fire/Fire Scrapper > Fire/Fire Tank (though I would loooooove combustion on a scrapper)
DM/SD > SD/DM
Elec/SD > SD/SS tank > SD/Elec tank
The Elec/SD/Blaze is the AoE king of the melee classes, IF Lightning Rod and Shield Charge hit their max targets. In most circumstances, Fire/SD will pull ahead with a faster recharging AoE and better single-target damage. Plus, try explaining someone that throws fireballs and has an endless supply of static electricity.
Well, for the most part, Tankers by design dont do more damage then Scrappers.However this isnt always true to that fact all the time.
I can honestly say that iv seen a FM/SD Scrapper in action.It was pretty impressive, but still didnt out damage my Fire/Fire Tanker in the same team.
His burst damage was nothing to shrug off, but the only thing that allowed me to out damage him (Provided he didnt crit), was only because of the dual BUs that I could trigger out of the mob before entering it for full damage along side a Blazing Aura that yeilds high damage under the BUs.
I noticed a bit that he would SC into the group, and I asked him why, he confided to me that he wont survive the alpha to get the buff and that he tried it before.
As for Tankers them selves, its very possible to match the damage output of damage of a Scrapper due to variables such as damage auras, exotic damages, and possibly lack of AoE vs what the Tanker can dish out in AoE.The biggest diffrence at that point is Crits, and no Tanker can match that.
My SD/Axe Tanker does Surprising Damage, but due to its being lethal Damage and lesser damage on its AoE attacks, a FM/SD Scrapper shouldnt have any issues out damaging him.Its all about what your build is vs the Scrapper, or the Tanker in question.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Well, for the most part, Tankers by design dont do more damage then Scrappers.However this isnt always true to that fact all the time.
I can honestly say that iv seen a FM/SD Scrapper in action.It was pretty impressive, but still didnt out damage my Fire/Fire Tanker in the same team. His burst damage was nothing to shrug off, but the only thing that allowed me to out damage him (Provided he didnt crit), was only because of the dual BUs that I could trigger out of the mob before entering it for full damage along side a Blazing Aura that yeilds high damage under the BUs. I noticed a bit that he would SC into the group, and I asked him why, he confided to me that he wont survive the alpha to get the buff and that he tried it before. |
You're overestimating your capabilities when compared to others. Or, you team with some really, really terrible players. That Fire/SD you teamed with probably was not built well.
Pre-soft cap, Shield is a squishy set. However, post softcap and IO's, you're looking at an entirely different creature.
Saturated Shield Charge on a decent build =on a scrapper does about three times the amount of damage over time of a tanker damage aura. There is no comparison. You're looking at around 700+ plus damage per 16 enemies every 25 seconds. On a tank you're looking at around 250 damage on a damage aura in the same amount of time (this is including buildup/fiery embrace an averaged calculation). No comparison.
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| As for Tankers them selves, its very possible to match the damage output of damage of a Scrapper due to variables such as damage auras, exotic damages, and possibly lack of AoE vs what the Tanker can dish out in AoE.The biggest diffrence at that point is Crits, and no Tanker can match that. |
Tankers start with a much lower modifier, AND lower damage buffs. This is the biggest difference, not crits.
Also, most resistance ranges are +/- 10%, so while it is noticeable, it isn't significant enough to lend a significant advantage to one particular set. The exception being when considering AV resistances.
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| Its all about what your build is vs the Scrapper, or the Tanker in question. |
I'm not doubting your characters can perform well. But, they really cannot match the kill speed of other builds. There's a reason why Elec/SD and Fire/SD scrappers are incredibly popular right now. If Fire/Fire tanks could compete with their kill speed, you'd see more of those. But, you don't.
As someone who knows IO's and various sets very well, and knows how to push builds toward their maximum performance, I can tell you that the tank platform is not the ideal for kill-speed. The maximum kill speed is a fraction of what scrappers and brutes are capable of.
Tonality, you of all people should know that it's not about comparing similarly built examples of each AT, but boastful rhetoric that uses the strongest and/or best built and played Tanker against the weakest and/or worst built and played Scrapper. At least if you have a preferred AT.
You can't arrive at the desired 'truth' without using distortions, half truths and reframing the argument. Cold, hard logic based on empirical evidence has no place in discussions of AT performance.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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F'real. My purpled Fire/Traps did way more than a level 5 Fire/Fire Blaster with Fireball. Therefore, Corrs do much more damage than Blasters :3
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Tonailty, you of all people should know that it's not about comparing similarly built examples of each AT, but boastful rhetoric that uses the strongest and/or best built and played Tanker against the weakest and/or worst built and played Scrapper. At least if you have a preferred AT.
You can't arrive at the desired 'truth' without using distortions, half truths and reframing the argument. Cold, hard logic based on empirical evidence has no place in discussions of AT performance. |
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Tonality, I can certainly agree that a Elec/SD Scrapper can out damage my Tank builds.However that wasnt the compairison, and I didnt include the use of IOs in the builds at all.
In fact, I havnt IOd out any of my characters yet on this account.Im waiting for them to all hit level 50 before doing so.So im going to disscard that part of the counter argument you have given me.
If you look at base Mechanics before IOs.A SD Scrapper has far less survivability using SOs then a FA Tanker does just using SOs.You may be a expert at IOs and I may seek some advice from you in the future if I need help with IOs, but the common thing in this game is that many people if not most of the people who dont come to the boards dont bother with IOs until they have completed the level 50 trudge of there character.
The biggest missconception is that everyone uses IOs by mid career of there characters.Which simply isnt the case.
Also, just to toss it out there.Iv seen a Elec/SD none IOd Scrapper get dropped trying to Alpha a +3 Mob.Yes, he hit the group hard, but he went down after he went in with LR.
The lack of IOs doesnt make him a horrible Scrapper.Its the missconception that he will desimate a map without being IOd out for the job.
One more thing before I await your reply.
Your almost right about a ST Scrapper out damaging my Fire Tankers ST attacks.Almost.
Go look up the damages on Incinerate, Greater Fire Sword, Scorch, and Fire Sword.Then multiply them by a factor of 180% damage boost.Then go and put 3 Standard Damage SOs in all of those attacks after upping the base damages 180%.
It easly allows me to dish out nasty ST damage and many ST Scrappers cant out damage me unless they Crit.So please, go and look those numbers up.A Calculator will do just fine.
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I don't touch them unless they happen to be lucky drops until 50. Even then, I only have two characters that are fully IOed up amongst several 50s.| The biggest missconception is that everyone uses IOs by mid career of there characters.Which simply isnt the case. |
This discussion isn't about survivability. It's about damage output. Might a tank have enough mitigation to survive long enough to take out a spawn that a scrapper would faceplant from before his superior damage could deal with that spawn?
Perhaps. On a good day for the tank maybe.
But again, that's not what this discussion is about. It's about damage dealing and you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Scrapper:
Incinerate: 156.4
GFS: 142.64 + 80%chance of 62.55
Scorch: 52.55 + 80%chance of 18.78
FS: 82.58 + 80%chance of 25.04
Total Scrap Chain Possible: 540.54
Tank:
Incin: 111.2
GFS: 108.55 + 80%chance of 44.5
Scorch: 37.37 + 80%chance of 13.35
FS: 58.72 + 80% chance of 17.8
Total Tank Chain Possible: 391.49
Build Up for Scrapper: 100%
Build Up for Tank: 80%
Fiery Embrace for Scrapper: 125%
Fiery Embrace for Tank: 100%
Buff from 3 damage SOs: 95%
Damage equation: Total of chain*(1+totalbuffs) = Adjusted Damage
Scrapper using your chain:
540.54 * (1+1+1.25+.95) = 2270.268
Tank using your chain:
391.49 * (1+.8+1+.95)) = 1468.0875
And that's not even considering crits. Scrappers have a 5% chance to crit against minions. A 10% chance against LTs on up.
On AVERAGE, that means the scrapper is dealing 2440.5381
That's just under 1000 more points of damage than your tank. With FOUR attacks.
Do you really want to go on believing that a fire tank can get anywhere close to what a fire scrapper is dishing out over the course of a spawn? Or a whole map?
EDIT: Why, yes, there is a reason I don't bother with tanks.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Oh crap... you didnt just throw math at him... I can picture his nervous tick freaking out. Quick! Revert to bad grammar and baseless assumtions to put him at ease!
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't touch them unless they happen to be lucky drops until 50. Even then, I only have two characters that are fully IOed up amongst several 50s.
This discussion isn't about survivability. It's about damage output. Might a tank have enough mitigation to survive long enough to take out a spawn that a scrapper would faceplant from before his superior damage could deal with that spawn? Perhaps. On a good day for the tank maybe. But again, that's not what this discussion is about. It's about damage dealing and you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Scrapper: Incinerate: 156.4 GFS: 142.64 + 80%chance of 62.55 Scorch: 52.55 + 80%chance of 18.78 FS: 82.58 + 80%chance of 25.04 Total Scrap Chain Possible: 540.54 Tank: Incin: 111.2 GFS: 108.55 + 80%chance of 44.5 Scorch: 37.37 + 80%chance of 13.35 FS: 58.72 + 80% chance of 17.8 Total Tank Chain Possible: 391.49 Build Up for Scrapper: 100% Build Up for Tank: 80% Fiery Embrace for Scrapper: 125% Fiery Embrace for Tank: 100% Buff from 3 damage SOs: 95% Damage equation: Total of chain*(1+totalbuffs) = Adjusted Damage Scrapper using your chain: 540.54 * (1+1+1.25+.95) = 2270.268 Tank using your chain: 391.49 * (1+.8+1+.95)) = 1468.0875 And that's not even considering crits. Scrappers have a 5% chance to crit against minions. A 10% chance against LTs on up. On AVERAGE, that means the scrapper is dealing 2440.5381 That's just under 1000 more points of damage than your tank. With FOUR attacks. Do you really want to go on believing that a fire tank can get anywhere close to what a fire scrapper is dishing out over the course of a spawn? Or a whole map? |
Hi all,
I've got level 50 Tanks and Scrappers and I know that Scrappers have higher damage modifiers and damage cap.
My question is - realistically, without external buffs (soloing) how much damage will each output?
I've got a L50 SD/SS Tanker and with AAO and stacked Rage he does great damage, by how much would the current FOTM FM/SD outdamage me?
If it's easier to work out, how does a SD/FM Tank compare to an FM/SD Scrapper?
There are lots of posts on SD Scrappers and how great they are but I've seen no real comparison data compared to the Tank counterpart.
Thanks
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller