Thoughts on Level 50-60 Content. . .
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-02-20 18:12 in Suggestions and Ideas
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And just how is it that you see my honesty as hypocrisy?
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Can I laugh at the hypocrisy of this sentence?
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because you go from saying that we are heroes who shouldn't have to profit off of everything to you wanting rewards.
this is not WoW or any of those other games that have no imagination to expand sideways instead of up. this game is all about alts. the DEVS have even STATED on these forums in one of these types of posts that THEY DO NOT WANT TO INCREASE the level cap. they would rather refine what we have and add more to the areas that need attention. a level cap IS NOT ONE OF THEM.
And this automatically means it cannot even be discussed? And I still do not see how being honest is hypocrisy. I also play villians.
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pretty much. this is one thing the have been adament about. there are plenty of things to do at 50. it is not the end of the hero.
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Originally Posted by Remaugen
And this automatically means it cannot even be discussed?...
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Random exercises in futility stop feeling fun after the third iteration of the same topic.
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Originally Posted by Remaugen
And this automatically means it cannot even be discussed?
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And yet you still feel the need to slam me for it.
pretty much... it's called learn to use the search function. this idea has been shot down several times within the last 8-10 months.
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No one is "slamming" you for anything, Remaugen. You know the level cap isn't going to be increased, you know this thread is pointless as a result. You've been given ample reasons why increasing the level cap is both unnecessary and even undesired--instead of addressing them, you just restated your original reasons for wanting them, which sounds a lot like "But you don't understand, I waaaaaant it!". I'm sorry, but that's why you're getting the responses you're getting at this point.
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Originally Posted by Remaugen
And yet you still feel the need to slam me for it.
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Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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Like a Teddy with scissors you do it mostly to yourself.
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Originally Posted by Remaugen
And yet you still feel the need to slam me for it.
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Remaugen,
I feel the need to make a statement here, and I want to make sure you understand me clearly.
There is no valid reason at all for in this game of City of Heroes/City of Villains for the level cap to be raised.
Stop! I know what you're thinking. You want to keep progressing your heroes. You want to get more shinnies, and make your characters feel more special, and epic, like those heroes you read in the comics. You want more reward. Unfortunately the only reward your fifties get is inf. You the player wants reward, that's what you get. You get money! How is this not enough for you?
To the point of my statement, you have given us the reasons you want the level cap to be raised. And every time we have come back to you telling you why it's not necessary.
1: Hitting 50 means retiring a toon for many people
-This is a choice and opinion that many people disagree with.
2: Adding new content
-Moot point. New content is being added with every issue. Maybe not your preferred/desired content, but new content none the less.
3: It would bring back players that have previously left.
-And upon reaching the new level cap(Regardless of length it takes) they would leave again. Hence, time is better spent on maintaining the influx of new players and retaining the current subscribership.
4: You feel 50 is too soon to stop a characters growth.
-And you're welcome to your opinion. Opinions are like... well you know. Everyone has one, and they all stink(Yes, mine too!). The devs have stated their opinion on this, and it completely disagrees with yours.
5: 50-60 will take longer, possibly even the same amount of time it takes to go from 1 to 50.
-Okay... so it takes longer to get to the end. Upon reaching 60, wait around for a year, when the level cap gets increased again. Upon reaching the next level cap etc. etc. etc. Where exactly does it end? A line must be drawn at some point, and that line is 50.
Those are all the reasons that you gave, that I could find, with the responses given against those reasons. There were also reasons given that were not in direct response to your reasons for the level cap increase. Such as...
A: Going Rogue is coming out soon, adding new content for all level characters, not just those at 50.
B: Purple sets/Hami-o's would become pointless.
C: The time spent on making all the content for 50-60 can be better spent increasing content for 1-50. Especially if the content needed to get to 60 from 50 would take the same amount of time to complete as it does to go from 1 to 50.
D: Getting to level 50 doesn't mean you beat the game. There could potentially be hundreds of hours of content you didn't do on your way to 50.
There's probably others, but I'm getting tired at this point. Either way, until you can come up with new reasons, that are good reasons and make sense, and could convince the development team of this game, you really shouldn't expect a level increase to happen.
Think of it this way. No matter how hard you train, how much you do, and how long you do it, eventually you will no longer be able to be any better than what you are. You have a limit of how much you're capable of doing. So do your heroes and villains. When they reach level 50, they are at their pinnacle. They can keep doing everything they've done before, fighting/making crime, put out/starting fires, protecting/injuring the timeline. But it won't make them any better at it.
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What good is the "Money" once your slotted?|
Originally Posted by Maniac_Raid
Remaugen, <Snip!>You get money! How is this not enough for you?
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Originally Posted by Maniac_Raid
<Snip!> 5: 50-60 will take longer, possibly even the same amount of time it takes to go from 1 to 50.
-Okay... so it takes longer to get to the end. Upon reaching 60, wait around for a year, when the level cap gets increased again. Upon reaching the next level cap etc. etc. etc. Where exactly does it end? A line must be drawn at some point, and that line is 50. |
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Originally Posted by Maniac_Raid
<Snip!> B: Purple sets/Hami-o's would become pointless.
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Originally Posted by Maniac_Raid
C: The time spent on making all the content for 50-60 can be better spent increasing content for 1-50. Especially if the content needed to get to 60 from 50 would take the same amount of time to complete as it does to go from 1 to 50.
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Just how many times do we run the same high level TFs?
I confess that I am somewhat stunned at the extreme depth reaction my post has brought. I am honestly confused by the vehemence that some folks are displaying, but thats fine, we are all entitled to our opinions.
Thank you all for taking the time to present your views!
Remaugen, you have yet to answer one question we have asked you repeatedly.
Where does it stop? Where in your version of the game is the level cap? Is there one at all?
Say they implement your level cap idea of 60, requiring the same amount of XP to get from 50-60 as it did to get from 1-50. So, we're at most, looking at 100 more hours of playtime.
If you only play two hours a day, that's 50 days to get from 50-60.
Ok so you added a month and a half to that character. Now, do they get more rewards for leveling?
More power slots? Higher damage powers? More enhancement slots?
Will we get more powerful IO sets? What about just more powerful common IO's?
You do realize that means taking even more developer time away from Issues and Updates to now rebalance everything for a 60 cap, right?
The game was designed to be capped at 50.
I'm sure if all the people you claim want the level cap bumped would come here and post it on the forums, in one thread, the devs might even seriously consider bumping up the level cap, but the general consensus from the community to the developers is that the level cap is just fine where it is.
What I don't understand is why you think you need to retire at 50?
Just the other day I did an ITF, helped a team help Penelope Yin find her father, ran with a level 4 team through the sewers, made 250 million Influence on Wentworth's, then went and paid my base upkeep all on the same character. Not once did I ever think I needed to retire that character to play with my low-level friends, or needed to switch characters to run the ITF.
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Hami-Os work exactly the same as SOs, in the sense that they only work for a specific level range. Once you hit 53, those Hami-Os do literally nothing. As they require an extraordinary effort to obtain, it's highly, highly unlikely that the devs are going to invalidate that effort without an even more extraordinary reason.|
Originally Posted by Remaugen
Why would they be pointless? They will still work the same regardless of the level.
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| I confess that I am somewhat stunned at the extreme depth reaction my post has brought. I am honestly confused by the vehemence that some folks are displaying, but thats fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. |
It's something we want to let die a long-deserved death. And when someone thinks they need to dig it up again, we tend to get a little irritated. It's nothing personal.
We'll always have Paragon.
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Originally Posted by Remaugen
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And I would have no objections at all (Indeed it would please me) to see level 70 content a year or two down the road, and level 80 at some point beyond that! So many people are asking "Where does it stop?", well I think that those levels will become so slow to attain that it will not really be an issue for some time to come. But I do feel that level 50 is too soon to stop a characters growth. I really don't want to max out every possible power with purple built to some formula. I want a character that I like, one that, given enough options, is not exactly like everyone else's and has room to continue growing in it's own direction. |
To a certain extent I did answer that question. But if I need to be a bit more specific, I do not have an ultimate final number, again that would be highly subjective. But I would certainly like to continue for a while longer. If level 50-60 takes as long to get to as 1-50 did and level 60-70 takes as long as 1-60 did, then I think it will be a good while before we see very many 70s, but I really see no reason to stop there yet.
Still though I do accept that many folks posting replies here feel there "Has to Be" a cap of sorts. To pick a number out of the air, lets say 80ish for now. That would be roughly eight times as long as it takes to get to 50 and it could mean (For a player like me) years of play. Undoubtedly there will be power levelers who could do it in less than a month, but I expect they are the exception rather than the rule.
I only have four 50s, three heroes and one villain even though I started this game when it debuted. I quickly got tired of running the same TFs that most all of the 50s that I have teamed with seem to run over and over almost on a schedule. I would object less to the repetition if I saw some form of reward. I left for a while (Over a year in fact) largely because of the level 50 Cap (And at the time the level 40 cap in Villains). It felt like I had invested so much time and effort in my toons and then suddenly hit a "Whats Next/Nothings Left" wall. While I am pretty much satisfied with the way my 50s are slotted, I would just like to see them grow some more, I want them to earn something for being played. Yeah realize that I am probably just being greedy, but it is a game we are paying money to play, is it really so wrong to want some form of reward like continued character growth? Gaining Influence alone just doesn't work for me.
If folks are so set on a level 50 cap, then could they perhaps at least still see a way to allowing 50s some form of continued growth? Perhaps new sets, they could "Invest" the XP they "Would Have" gained if they were still leveling, into new power sets and additional slots. This way, nobody would have to change their enhancements, which seems to be a commonly voiced worry. When I opened this thread I offered some suggestions for 50+ sets. Take the "Sidekick/Minion" set that I offered up in the intitial post, just for an example, the level 50 toon would be able to invest XP they would have been gaining to train and elevate a sidekick with that power set, thus still seeing some form continuing growth after a fashion.
Of course this is not, by any means, an absolute statement of any kind. Just tossing out an idea to fill a need that I personally perceive, and perhaps also a bit of a plea of sorts for some understanding of that need.
Thanks Again!
THIS GAME ISN'T WoW. enough said. end of story. close the book and bury the horse. let it stay dead to because right now all we have left to bury is the damn head.
Remaugen, did you seriously just quote yourself? Unbelievable. And no, you haven't answered his question--you essentially said, "I don't know, and I don't want to pick a number." You haven't responded to any of the reasons why people are opposed to the idea, instead you pretend that the responses you've recieved thus far were personal attacks.
We are crystal clear on what it is you want--that's not the problem. The problem is that in order to get what you want, you'd cause a lot of other problems in the process. Adding ten more levels comes with a heck of a price tag: character/powerset rebalancing, invalidation of Hami-O enhancements, market fluctuations and frustration over level 50 purple sets becoming obsolete, leveling curve resmoothing, PvP reconfiguration, etc. Not to mention the intense development effort required would significantly slow new content that could be available for all levels, new taskforces, new enemies, new zones, new powersets, etc--basically everything else would get put on hold so that you can tack 50-60 on a game designed around 1-50.
Stop pretending that people are out to get you, and respond to these concerns. If you don't take them seriously and propose workarounds or solutions, then why should we take you seriously?
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
Ok, I feel this is never going to end, so I'll respond to this last post, and then I'm done. I don't see the point to going round and round with you over this any more
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This is you being picky. You're given money, but you want something else. You want a reward for continuing to play a character that no longer levels but it's not the reward you want. The money is good for things once you're slotted the way you want. Base building, IOing out alts, playing the market, getting the inf earned badges. Unfortunately, if none of this interests you, then you'll just have to come to terms with that.|
Originally Posted by Remaugen
What good is the "Money" once your slotted?
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| I am not sure why it must end there, but given that it must end somewhere, "Then why not higher?" is my whole point. |
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| Why would they be pointless? They will still work the same regardless of the level. |
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| We already have the existing content to level 50 with more coming soon in Going Rogue, so why can't it be applied to 50 plus? |
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| Just how many times do we run the same high level TFs? |
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| I confess that I am somewhat stunned at the extreme depth reaction my post has brought. I am honestly confused by the vehemence that some folks are displaying, but thats fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. |
I am sorry if this post comes off as rude, my intention is to be blunt. I tried before to respond in a way that addresses to anyone who agrees with you that the level cap needs to be raised, but each of your replies you have emphasized how much you want this and why you don't understand why we keep saying it's not a good idea. So this time, I address it to you and you alone.
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Please, try to read this in as positive a light as you can, because I won't be held responsible with how it comes out. But...|
Originally Posted by Remaugen
To a certain extent I did answer that question. But if I need to be a bit more specific, I do not have an ultimate final number, again that would be highly subjective. But I would certainly like to continue for a while longer. If level 50-60 takes as long to get to as 1-50 did and level 60-70 takes as long as 1-60 did, then I think it will be a good while before we see very many 70s, but I really see no reason to stop there yet.
Still though I do accept that many folks posting replies here feel there "Has to Be" a cap of sorts. To pick a number out of the air, lets say 80ish for now. That would be roughly eight times as long as it takes to get to 50 and it could mean (For a player like me) years of play. Undoubtedly there will be power levelers who could do it in less than a month, but I expect they are the exception rather than the rule. |
ARE YOU NUTS?!? Eight times as long as the game currently lasts? When Jack and Matt got together and designed the 40-50 game, they decided to make it last as long as the 1-40 game. And you know what that created? Endless padding, crap missions, awful narrative and A BIG WASTE OF TIME. Otherwise decent stories are stretched out and stretched out until they're no longer interesting and they are a PAIN to do. To Save a Thousand Worlds is a good idea in principle. By the third time you're investigating Dimension 1, then Dimension 2, then Dimension 3, even the most patient player will admit that this is shameless, needless, AGGRAVATING padding. Saving the Statesman from a sinister prison should make for a good story, but when the bulk of it is spent getting the "I'm sorry, but your Statesman is in another dimension" screen over and over again, then it turns into a crap story.
Granted, World Wide Red is a great story, but it's three story arcs all strung together into a single one, and Crimson has three-mission mini-arcs for ALL of his other missions. The sheer amount of work gone into just one contact is staggering, and he doesn't even give you more than a couple of levels, all told.
Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that the whole game turn into an endless series of Dr. Quaterfield followed by Unai Kemen followed by Sara Moore? THIS IS NOT FUN! They specially sped up levelling in the 40-50 range exactly BECAUSE people found it a huge, unfun, boring drag to slog through level after level after level with no visible progress and all the powers they actually wanted, with the possible promise of return at some point in the distant future when they get to 50 and can start amassing whatever the "epic loot" is at the time. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy an endless grind.
And, really, the game HAS to end, and end in such a way that EVERYONE can see this end and get the closure it brings. I HATE HATE HATE games that waste my time and still never end. I hate games that take so long that I grow old before I see the end. I hate games that dick around hold me down because of someone else's arbitrary idea of how long I should take to level up. The very idea that MMOs should take a frikkin' long time is absurd, and is little more than a developer trick to make money. It is not, nor has it ever been, a good thing that players should want.
Just like I don't watch a series that never gives me an ending, so I would never, ever, EVER play a game that never finished. At all. And there's a very good reason why this is the only MMO I play.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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OK I skipped to the end here and read the last few replies. I already knew what MY opinion (right or wrong) is on the issue. 
Essentially I agree with Maniac and the Devs. *MY* reason here is that I've seen higher level content utterly ruin playability at lower levels in other games. I spent the greatest amount of time out of CoX playing Everquest 2, so I'll use it as the example.
As soon as even the level 60 content hit, it was all but impossible to get any dort of a team together at lower levels. I had a level 34 Fury that tried for months to get on a team to hit Deathfist Citidel. Never happened. Everybody was too busy working the high levels. All the old, lower level material went by the wayside. Start a new character? The established guilds just PL'ed alts up to the high levels. It only got worse as the level 70 stuff came out.
I spent enough time in World of Warcrap (2 months was all I could stand), to see the same thing to a greater extreme there. Join a guild? You've got a week to get your new toon to level 60 and start helping with raids. WTF?!? What if I'm new or an RP'er and actually want to take the time to explore the game's content? What if I just have a life and can't spent 14 hrs a day online to meet that deadline?
That's my VERY longwinded way of saying keeping the level cap at 50 keeps the character levels just close enough (in my opinion) where highbies are still willing to help lowbies instead of only PL a guildie or leave all the lowbies hanging.
The bigger thing I've seen, which I FREELY admit was added to by the greater ease of transferring money between toons in other games, was that the game economics got COMPLETELY out of whack. When you have a level 60, 70, or 80 who's making *billions* per run, he's not going to think anything of dropping 100,000 gold in the auction house for a item for his new level 5 character. How's a new player or casual player supposed to keep up with that? Especially when enough of those new lowbie alts completely decked out in purple gear start whining that the low level content is too easy?
Farmers in the game here already have the ecomony a LITTLE out of whack. There's NO way a casual player is ever going to scrape up 300,000,000+ for some of the recipes out there. THe counter arguement that they're supposed to be rare is correct too, but anybody being honest would have to admit that kind of pricing is out of balance none the less.
Now imagine if we did raise the level cap to 60 or 70 and the highest level characters were making 10 times what they are now, then trading money to their alts via friends. Anybody here REALLY want to have to start dishing out a million a pop for mid level IOs because some people have it to burn?
Maniac had the right idea I think. New content for existing levels, and hopefully eventually an overhaul of some of the dead zones. I LOVED Perez Park WAY back in issue one. Try getting a team together there now, lol.
Anyhoo, the Devs decision to freeze the level cap may not be popular with some. Heck occasionally I wonder what it'd be like to take one of my nine 50s higher. Still, I can at least see the logic behind the decision and what doing different has caused other games.
With the recent announcenment of issue 17 I imagine that any idea about level cap raising is firmly squished. Thank goodness!
The Positron TF is being rewritten with a new enemy faction included. It will be in two parts. It is not a new 50 arc, but a rewrite of a painful 10-15 TF that forms part of a very useful accolade.
New arcs for Red and Blue levels 20-30: Although there is a lot of content for those levels already, please consider that much of the Hero stuff (apart from Striga and Croatoa) is running around Independence Port... Whilst I enjoy Christine Lansdale's timed missions and the Freaklympics arc, I will enjoy more content for 20-30 which, without any further details, I believe will be the set-up for Going Rogue. (The issue is called 'Through the Glass Darkly' or similar)
The cap on number of active missions will be raised from 3 to 7.
At level 50, whilst you can probably have 4 or 5 active missions due to contacts (at least Blueside, including RWZ and Cimerora) I think this will benefit more the characters levelling from about 25 onwards, when XP does take a slight hike in rate to achieve the next level. It should also make teaming (everyone doing the same arcs for Reward Merits) more accessible.
My point? These kinds of QoL and new content additions to the game are far more worthy of my time than an increase from 50-60 and so on. What bigger threat can the OP devise than the Praetorians, Requiem, Malta et al? I'd rather see more movement of level ranges for existing mobs so that, perhaps, Banished Pantheon range from 20-50 without that mysterious gap after 30 or so.
Variety is the spice of life, and quality wins over quantity any day of the week.
[QUOTE=Remaugen;2648864]What good is the "Money" once your slotted?
What do you mean what good is the money after the toon is slotted? I myself use my 50s over and over again. Now the toon I might be playing atm is slotted, and I do not need money for her. I do however have other toons that are going to need to be slotted. The money I have earned on the slotted 50 is then transfered to a toon that I need the money on, or I get the stuff I need for the other toon craft it put it in base and the other toon then takes it. So there is a use for the money you earn on a fully slotted 50.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters