Trying to tap into evil...
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2010-02-04 11:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Stalkers, at least at low level before they get all their defenses in place, are generally better at the "strike and run away" tactic instead of hanging around and scrapping it out. They're also more geared towards running against smaller spawns of higher level enemies.
However, my katana/electric stalker is quite capable of sitting and scrapping it out with a x3 or x4 average-difficulty-type spawn largely due to Divine Avalanche. By using that as often as I can, she can have her melee and lethal defense up to the soft-cap and higher with no trouble. She has a resistance based set, so any hits that get through do less damage than they otherwise would. And she has a heal. Really, her main problem is being hit by ranged non-lethal attacks, but since most enemies will close to melee if they can, that isn't as often as you think.
I've only played a handful of stalkers myself, but I'm sure there are other combinations that have similar benefits.
I have the exact same problem, I started with a tank, moved to (and love) scrappers and can't enjoy either a brute or stalker.
Imho stalkers are too different in how they play, and I hate attacks like AS that take ages to animate (Plus I actually hate all the AS animations themselves) so I don't think they are a good match to scrappers/tanks as you might think.
Brutes on the other hand are affected by fury, which is a mechanism that some love, but I personally hate, and it might be this that gets to you too. What I hate about fury isnt the fact that you need to always keep moving (Though I do dislike it whenever i make a cup of tea and have to build it all over again) but it is that you do sod all damage until you get it high. I personally find them the worst hybrid of tanks and scrappers that the devs could have made, though I know my opinion doesn't match up with most peoples, you could well be in the same boat as me.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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EA has its proponents and it's not so much terrible as SR and Ninjitsu are more popular choices. SR boasts better defense, debuff resist, and scaling resists. Ninjitsu has less defense but a better self-heal and some other active defenses like Caltrops, Blinding Powder, and Smoke Flash. Ninjitsu is probably the most popular Stalker choice for several reasons:|
Originally Posted by protector_knight
[edit] I have seen people talk about energy defesne, aura, w hatever the defensive set is called. What is so bad about it? that is all I hear is it is a terrible set. curious as to why?
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1. It's a Stalker exclusive set.
2. With IOs you can make up for what it lacks vs. SR in defense and knockback protection.
3. Depending on how many of the trick powers you want to take it can be a pretty loose build.
My recommendation to a scrapper player just coming over to Stalkers would be Ninjitsu paired with either Ninja Blade or Broadsword. NB strikes me as a bit more thematic for a finesse fighter. Quick strikes though each slightly less damaging than the heavier/slower Broadsword. Either will give you the self buff to defense in Divine Avalanche / Parry which together with the self-heal, defense toggles, and (at the very least) caltrops, can make for a pretty survivable and scrappy combo.
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I had the same issues regarding red side melee toons until I dedicated some time there. I have a few Stalkers that all seem pretty scrapperish now that I have them leveled up and IOd.
/Ninj unhittable
/Regen unkillable (have to be careful on initial alphas, unless you build for that)
/WP very durable
I think once you put some time into the toons, you can appreciate them more. Initially I just decided I didnt like them after leveling upto lv20ish with SOs but I put off playing heroes until I found vills I enjoyed playing.
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Energy Aura's problem is that it has a whole bunch of little issues that combine into one big one:|
Originally Posted by protector_knight
[edit] I have seen people talk about energy defesne, aura, w hatever the defensive set is called. What is so bad about it? that is all I hear is it is a terrible set. curious as to why?
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1.) It uses typed defense. This means that it's open to being hit with anything that's only positional. For example, Web Grenade is only considered a Ranged attack. SR or Ninjitsu will protect against, but EA won't. There are a whole lot more powers that are positional only than there are typed only. It also means that it's harder to softcap with IOs, because you need to reach 45% with all 6 of its types, rather than only the 3 positional (and you still have holes).
2.) The types it has exclude Toxic (because Toxic defense doesn't exist) and Psionic. It has a little bit of Toxic resistance in one of the passives, but the only method of getting Psi defense is in Energy Cloak, and even then it's not very much.
3.) The passives are underwhelming, and they don't stack with the rest of the set. Being resistance rather than defense, the passives don't contribute as much as, say, SR's passives, which stack with the rest of the set. Being passives, they're automatically not very potent, so the lack of stacking makes them even less appealing. But at least one (Energy Protection) is still necessary, because it's the only place to get protection from Toxic damage.
4.) Its esoteric protections are lacking compared to other sets. It gets less defense debuff protection than, say, SR, which is particularly bad because it doesn't have as much defense as SR. Where SR gets slow protection, EA gets resistance to repel and teleport, which aren't important in PvE.
EA's tradeoffs for lesser mitigation are protection to effects that rarely show up, and a power that restores End and heals a very small amount. It's not exactly broken; I took my EA brute to 45 even before the change to Energy Drain. But all of the other options for both archetypes that get access to it tend to be better.
We'll always have Paragon.
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One thing to do, might be to wait till EA gets ported to Tankers/Scrappers, which I think will see a massive change/buff to the set, as Conserve Power will likely get a similar (though different) treatment as CP did in Electric Armor.
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Originally Posted by NeverDark
Energy Aura's problem is that it has a whole bunch of little issues that combine into one big one:
1.) It uses typed defense. This means that it's open to being hit with anything that's only positional. For example, Web Grenade is only considered a Ranged attack. SR or Ninjitsu will protect against, but EA won't. There are a whole lot more powers that are positional only than there are typed only. It also means that it's harder to softcap with IOs, because you need to reach 45% with all 6 of its types, rather than only the 3 positional (and you still have holes). 2.) The types it has exclude Toxic (because Toxic defense doesn't exist) and Psionic. It has a little bit of Toxic resistance in one of the passives, but the only method of getting Psi defense is in Energy Cloak, and even then it's not very much. 3.) The passives are underwhelming, and they don't stack with the rest of the set. Being resistance rather than defense, the passives don't contribute as much as, say, SR's passives, which stack with the rest of the set. Being passives, they're automatically not very potent, so the lack of stacking makes them even less appealing. But at least one (Energy Protection) is still necessary, because it's the only place to get protection from Toxic damage. 4.) Its esoteric protections are lacking compared to other sets. It gets less defense debuff protection than, say, SR, which is particularly bad because it doesn't have as much defense as SR. Where SR gets slow protection, EA gets resistance to repel and teleport, which aren't important in PvE. EA's tradeoffs for lesser mitigation are protection to effects that rarely show up, and a power that restores End and heals a very small amount. It's not exactly broken; I took my EA brute to 45 even before the change to Energy Drain. But all of the other options for both archetypes that get access to it tend to be better. |
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There are a few scrappers that might enjoy energy aura, but I don't see it being met with joy if it was brought to tanks. As energy is basically a 'gimp' version of ice, the only reason to actually choose energy over ice is probably going to be aesthetic.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
One thing to do, might be to wait till EA gets ported to Tankers/Scrappers, which I think will see a massive change/buff to the set, as Conserve Power will likely get a similar (though different) treatment as CP did in Electric Armor.
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I want my ice broot.
I've already heard the arguments, and I still want one
One of the newer combos you might enjoy solo is claws/wp for brutes. If you like scrappers, you'll probably enjoy this combination a lot. Once you add IO's it really gets sick.
For stalkers, I'd even perhaps recommend elec/nin for a little fun. Lightning Rod is a fun little power, and the thought of a nuke from nowhere sounds deliciously evil.
*rolls a elec/SR stalker*
edit: Nope, nevermind. No elec/sr in the works. I think it might be an elec/nrg stalker for fun.
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First: EVERYTHING villainside sucks until you get to about level 20. I've deleted or abandoned about six brutes in the teens, three or four corruptors as well. | fm/da, sm/invun, electric/energy aura, claws/wp, dm/sr |
Second: A lot of Brute sets are slow starters. I can only personally comment on Elec and Fire primaries on brutes- Elec felt weak and annoying until level 33, after which I loved, loved, loved it. Fire is a good primary- and invuln and willpower as secondaries. Willpower is a very very good brute secondary. Invuln is slow-starting, again, and (redside) there's a lot of enemies that rip you apart.
Theorycrafting, Dark Armor is good for anything BUT a brute (brutes are end-starved at all times and Dark Armor is the world's worst end hog), and Super Reflexes is going to suck before SO's.
So you've got a lot of slow starters in that batch, AND you've got the villain "slow starter" feel in general. AND you've got the lowbie Brute problem in general: by the time you've cooked up a decent batch of Fury you're practically out of endurance.
What can you do to get to the levels where you are a glorious monster of death?
1) Slot End Red in your attacks. One EndRed before any Damage.
2) IO out early and often- level 20 IO's are significantly better than DO's, you can slot two acc/dam IO's to get even better results, you may even be able to pick up a little bit of Recovery or some cheap extra EndRed.
3) Willpower secondary. I told a friend "Axe/Will" once, when she was bored and looking for an alt, and the next day she was like "I love it! I've been playing her for six hours!" I can't guarantee it will work for YOU but it's a nice combo.
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Dark Armor's reputation as an end hog is no longer valid, not that it ever was IMO. Skip the fear aura and put the +end proc in the heal. The remaining toggles have a lower end cost than other sets generally.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Theorycrafting, Dark Armor is good for anything BUT a brute (brutes are end-starved at all times and Dark Armor is the world's worst end hog)
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If there is any problem with DA with regards to end it is simply that it doesn't have a +end or +recovery power. However it isn't alone in this, and isn't any worse in that regard than any other secondary that lacks such a power.
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The 20% endurance discount to your main 3 armors fails (horribly) to make up for the fact that Death Shroud and Cloak of Darkness are not discounted. Shroud costs as much as 2 normal armors from any other set--just like the other damage auras, except that both other damage aura sets get endurance management powers! Turning off Cloak gets you immobilized (and hurts your defense a bit), which is even worse for a Brute than it is for a Scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
Dark Armor's reputation as an end hog is no longer valid, not that it ever was IMO. Skip the fear aura and put the +end proc in the heal. The remaining toggles have a lower end cost than other sets generally.
If there is any problem with DA with regards to end it is simply that it doesn't have a +end or +recovery power. However it isn't alone in this, and isn't any worse in that regard than any other secondary that lacks such a power. |
If running the equivalent of 5.5 armor toggles with no endurance management assistance wasn't bad enough, there's the part where doing so is still leaving you weaker than other sets. You have to fill a knockback hole with IO's; your damage toggle is unusually weak (less damage than Fire but no compensating debuff or endurance discount); you have a partial hole to Energy damage, which is rather common; you have no protection from defense debuff; your heal, which you need, is the single most expensive power in the game (other than crashing powers) and yet barely even as effective as many other self-heals. Even your self-rez only works situationally.
Edit: You might try playing a Dominator. They're pretty Scrappy. Again, though, you might need to get to higher levels to see their full potential. (Might. The endurance help from Domination makes things easier, as does the status protection, and now that their base damage was increased they can kill pretty fast at all levels.)
I like DA. But it's an end hog.
You have about as much END cost from your pure protection toggles as other sets. I am not going to talk about Cloak of Fear because I don't take it, and I don't think you need it, so it's an irrelevant end hog. And Op. Gloom is a bargain.
That leaves you with both a damage aura and a giant effect/giant cost heal. The damage aura hurts your END because it's like having an AOE attack on auto... except that you can use other attacks at the same time for double the END cost. The heal, while worth it, is indeed an enormous END cost. 3-slotted for END reduction it still costs more endurance than any attack Scrapper get except Fire Sword Circle. I think that's a bargain for 90% (depending on how you do playing chicken with your health bar) of your HP but it's not something to hit casually.
I'll admit that I generally run Tough and Weave, but seriously? Dark is an end hog.
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So you think you're a hero, huh.
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Just a couple of pennies,
I prefer heroes to Villains, so Redside is my guilty pleasure. Stomping stuff just cause you can and might making right are heaps of fun, but its hard for me to stick with it on redside....Unless I have a great backstory.
The plots on red side are very interesting and with the right backstory its a blast to uncover them.
So my advice would be make a killer story for your character.
The next bit of advice is this, IO's can ease the rough edges of just about any character. Make use of the black market and you can either strengthen your strenghts to the point where you are unstoppable or mitigate your weaknesses to the point where you cant be killed by them anymore (Hurt, sure, but not killed).
Since Uberness or relative Uberness is possible for any character you choose to make, it's a matter of sticking with the character long enough, and for me that means a great back story.
If I like my character I'm ok with not liking his stats until I can improve them.
Feel The Burn
My DM/SR brute started out a little slow.
But it kept getting better and better. Once I hit the 40s it was a maniacally cackling engine of destruction.
My DM/Ninjitsu stalker is quite a scrapper actually. I was on a team going to take on Eochai (Halloween event), and I fought him for a good 8 or 9 minutes.......and then realized I was the only one fighting him, apparently I scrapperlocked and the rest of the team was just watching in awe that I was still alive. It was pretty funny. Hmmm....mght have to see if I can solo one someday.
For me, playing villainside is definitely a mindset. If I have a crappy day at work, nothing helps blow off steam like logging a brute in and destroying anything dumb enough to get in my way. Or logging in a stalker and destroying things that didn't even realize they were in my way.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Well, im someone else who doesnt like Brutes.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I have the exact same problem, I started with a tank, moved to (and love) scrappers and can't enjoy either a brute or stalker.
Imho stalkers are too different in how they play, and I hate attacks like AS that take ages to animate (Plus I actually hate all the AS animations themselves) so I don't think they are a good match to scrappers/tanks as you might think. Brutes on the other hand are affected by fury, which is a mechanism that some love, but I personally hate, and it might be this that gets to you too. What I hate about fury isnt the fact that you need to always keep moving (Though I do dislike it whenever i make a cup of tea and have to build it all over again) but it is that you do sod all damage until you get it high. I personally find them the worst hybrid of tanks and scrappers that the devs could have made, though I know my opinion doesn't match up with most peoples, you could well be in the same boat as me. |
I have a Brute only because I cant get the EM/EA Combonation on a Tanker, and its a theme deal for me.
I never worry about my Fury Bar with this build, and I treat him like one of my Tanks because the Fury mechanic bugs me to no end.
I may acctually remake this Brute into a Tanker, which wouldnt be the first time iv done that.I remade my level 24 Axe/SD Brute into a Tanker and couldnt be happier,If I remake the EM/EA, I am not sure what armor set ill give him.
Prolly be Invln/EM.It wouldnt have the same impact on my theme as the EA does, but then again, it seems like Brutes and Stalkers are getting more love then Tankers are when it comes to sets.
I cant really deal with many scrapper builds.However I do enjoy a Spine/FA or Spines/Elec build.Not for Min/Max power gamming, but for the theme I can place with them.
I currently have no Scrappers though.
I have tryed multiple brutes lvl 28 fm/da, sm/invun, electric/energy aura, claws/wp, dm/sr. I just can't seem to grab hold of a villian toon and run with them.
I was (still am) a avid tank player blue side, and I tryed a few scrappers. I now tend to prefer the scrapper, becasue of the damage potential, and also when you IO slot them, they show vast improvement in survival, over the tanker counter part.
Maybe what I am doing is trying to stick to a brute, but would really need to be playing a stalker. I tryed a couple stalkers, it is just they are so damn squshie...
Now I say this before SO's cuz I only carried one toon over that point. What is the major differences between the two sets?
[edit] I have seen people talk about energy defesne, aura, w hatever the defensive set is called. What is so bad about it? that is all I hear is it is a terrible set. curious as to why?
protector-knight: lvl 50 invun/axe tank
Lillian Brick: lvl 50 stone/stone/pyre tank
Hybrid-knight: lvl 50 db/regen scrap
Vengful-Nature: lvl 50 spines/sr/bod scrap
Element-Wizard: lvl 50 fire/storm/stone troll