the devs do not want it and have stated that we are lucky we get to keep 10 of them.
When I hear this suggestion (and yes I have heard it a number of times before); I have to stare in wonder. Although, you do at least give a nod to a slightly-somewhat-kinda plausible reason for the change you desire. Why my discomfiture at this question? Two reasons.
1) IF (and I mean, really, 'if') one goes through all the pain and trouble to create a Build with certain IO Sets, and specifically per your post, Purple/PvP sets; why on earth do we consider that they would be so shortsighted as to not have researched said Build to create it with at least a nod towards frugality in the first place? I mean; in order to Max this 'Awsome Build' out in the first place; they must have researched what they wanted a bit in the first place. So with all the number crunching, they forgot to 'count the cost' of what they were doing? Meh. Anything's possible.
Can this happen? Sure it can. My Main Villain is kinda facing this possible problem as we speak. Of course, he has only ever used 1 Respec (a Freebie a couple years ago) and has the max stock of Earned Respecs, VetSpecs, yada yada; why waste time talking about it. So I can see the possibility and the desire, but the need I do not see; especially with Dual Builds.
And taking the above into consideration; Reason Two begs the question.
2) Is it 'really' to completely change the Build you have gotten to 50 to 'purple out' into a PvP beast, or is it (in my own conspiratorial mindset) that the Player now has another new Character and Build which could make use of many of the Advanced IO Sets better than the 'Now Soon-to-be Abandoned in favor of Another' Character? I hate to say that I (personally) believe it is the latter more likely. But then I dont believe that people are 'basically good and honest' at the core of things. We all raise the Jolly Roger when we want something bad enough; and want what we want, the way we want it, NAO!
Not that I am against this, but then it doesnt necessitate a change either.
But that is what this Forum is for (and also the reason it is in the 'For Fun' Grouping). And Quint has the rationale correct anywho.
And all that just to go along with the Mods desire that I not just say /unsigned. Cant say I dont try to follow the rules.
Ninus Lvl 50 Bots/Dark/SM Mastermind Badges: 1384 @Ninus on Global
Put an Ebil MasterMind in the Obal Office: It wont be the first time
Campaigning for Global Global Ignore Champion since 2009!
Personally, I don't believe respecs should leave any enhancements behind in your tray at all. It's not a popular position, but understand that I'm not really in favour of making it even easier to salvage slotted enhancements.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think they should modify the enhancement tray to allow for more than 10 enhancements in your tray after a respec, but never allow you to take on any more than 10 outside of the respec. Basically only allow someone to hold more than 10 enhancements for respecs but never in any other case (as it currently is).
Eg, if you had 15 enhancements you didn't slot outside of the respec, it would keep them in your tray and say 15/10, and not allow you to take on any further enhancements until you got them down to 9 or fewer.
Alternatively, it would be nice instead of just discarding them it would automatically fill them into your auction house slots instead, so you could potentially have 30+ enhancement slots after a respec instead of a measly 10.
Going through 5+ respecs just to salvage out IOs/Hamis that you have hanging around because of the various changes over the years is NOT a good QoL feature.
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This right here is INTENDED behavior. Enhancements are meant to be an inf sink. They should probably remove the 10 Enchancement tray from the Respec screen, IMO, not increase it.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
Regardless, my suggestion comes from the issue of having someone fully purple/pvp slotted and then deciding on a different style or sets. Doing a respec to save some of your billions investment only saves 10 at most. There's bound to be many others that will be lost or have to be placed again temporarily until you can get another respec recipie (which I've heard people will actually do, respec after respec to save their IOs).
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/unsigned
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Going through 5+ respecs just to salvage out IOs/Hamis that you have hanging around because of the various changes over the years is NOT a good QoL feature.
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Designers do things that are bad ideas all the time. Example: Thermal Clips in Mass Effect 2. |
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Perhaps not in your opinion, but it is WAI.
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Just because a feature is working as the designers intended is not a valid reason to keep the feature.
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Except that Thermal Clips were possibly the best addition to ME2.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Designers do things that are bad ideas all the time. Example: Thermal Clips in Mass Effect 2.
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And there is no way that the 10 enhancement limit will be changed. Respecs are meant to let you change your power selections, not to let you rip out all your enhancements. They're supposed to be semi-permanent.
We'll always have Paragon.
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Go play your shooters and stop trying to inject "challenge" (read: resource management) into my RPGs.
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Originally Posted by NeverDark
Except that Thermal Clips were possibly the best addition to ME2.
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I would say it the other way around. Traditionally RPGs have been a lot more about resource management than shooters. In shooters the only resource management is ammunition, and normally only ammunition in the clip at that since spare ammo is easy to find. RPGs on the other hand tend to have a lot of different consumables and different gear sets and managing them to avoid running out at the wrong time or having the wrong gear on at the wrong tiem is a major part of the game.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Go play your shooters and stop trying to inject "challenge" (read: resource management) into my RPGs.
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in any case I'll say no for pretty much the same reason as everyone else. There are precious few inf sinks in the game and the current market seems to be inflationary as it is. Given that I'd rather not eliminate one of the few inf sinks the game has.
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WAI is not always the best situation and it doesn't preclude that the system couldn't be improved either. There's lots of things that were WAI and subsequently were replaced to improve QoL. You can include things like SK/SSK, Recipe drop/TF merit rewards, Exemplaring in TFs, even turning off email from non-friends. Every single one of those items were WAI before the changes yet they were all modified to improve QoL.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
This right here is INTENDED behavior. Enhancements are meant to be an inf sink. They should probably remove the 10 Enchancement tray from the Respec screen, IMO, not increase it.
... Perhaps not in your opinion, but it is WAI. |
Disagreeing with the OP's premise is fine, but dismissing it because it is WAI isn't.
As far as inf sinks go, Hamis cannot be bought from vendors so losing them isn't exactly an inf sink per se unless you were needing to repurchase them.
In terms of what enhancements are meant to be, I would see their primary function as providing a performance increase or bonus when slotting as opposed to inf sinks like market fees or base upkeep costs. If you have a redname quote saying that Enhancements were intended to be inf sinks, I'd like to see it.
As far as removing the tray from a respec, that one's a non starter.
PS. Some of the features the devs may not consider only come after other MMOs implement such features too. Keeping up with the Jones' maybe a good idea sometimes.
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The devs never came to the forums and said, "You'll never have SSK. In fact, you're lucky to have SKing at all." They have done so on allowing you to keep more than 10 enhancements during a respec.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Disagreeing with the OP's premise is fine, but dismissing it because it is WAI isn't.
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We'll always have Paragon.
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You are correct, enhancements aren't technically an Inf sink, I was using "inf sink" as a generic term for anything that removes value from the economy. Enhancement sink would be better but saying "slotting enhancements is an enhancement sink" sounds a bit silly. The point I wanted to make was that the limitations on the ability to unslot enhancements serves to (effectively) take enhancements out of circulation. In the case of SOs this isn't actually doing anything, the SOs sell for their purchase price during a respec so the value actually remains in the economy. But in the case of the more valuable IOs and HOs the value is lost. This helps to maintain the value of lower rarity IOs (and especially common IOs) and HOs since people will tend to buy new rather than slotting an old character. It has less impact on the higher value IOs and HOs since people will tend to respec several times to recover the value rather than buying new.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
As far as inf sinks go, Hamis cannot be bought from vendors so losing them isn't exactly an inf sink per se unless you were needing to repurchase them.
In terms of what enhancements are meant to be, I would see their primary function as providing a performance increase or bonus when slotting as opposed to inf sinks like market fees or base upkeep costs. If you have a redname quote saying that Enhancements were intended to be inf sinks, I'd like to see it. |
If people could remove enhancements freely the value of common IOs would drop dramatically. Most people would maintain a few sets of mid-level ones for leveling alts instead of crafting a new set for every character.
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Go look for straw men somewhere else. Being able to reload a weapon instantly, rather than waiting on ludicrously long cooldown timers is far superior, and I will easily trade the limited (read: not really) resources that you trip over every time you round a corner for that convenience. I would much rather have a sniper rifle that reloads almost instantly after a shot over one which overheats on one shot and then cools down for four seconds.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Go play your shooters and stop trying to inject "challenge" (read: resource management) into my RPGs.
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Just because YOU dislike a particular design implementation does not make it bad, nor does it mean other people agree with you. Try and keep a bit of perspective.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This comes to play when I learn something new about IOs I didn't know before. Or there's a game change that makes them not work the way they used to. Or a new set comes out that you want to replace (say the PVP sets) but you want to preserve your really expensive stuff for your other characters.
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Originally Posted by Ninus
When I hear this suggestion (and yes I have heard it a number of times before); I have to stare in wonder. Although, you do at least give a nod to a slightly-somewhat-kinda plausible reason for the change you desire. Why my discomfiture at this question? Two reasons.
1) IF (and I mean, really, 'if') one goes through all the pain and trouble to create a Build with certain IO Sets, and specifically per your post, Purple/PvP sets; why on earth do we consider that they would be so shortsighted as to not have researched said Build to create it with at least a nod towards frugality in the first place? I mean; in order to Max this 'Awsome Build' out in the first place; they must have researched what they wanted a bit in the first place. So with all the number crunching, they forgot to 'count the cost' of what they were doing? Meh. Anything's possible. Can this happen? Sure it can. My Main Villain is kinda facing this possible problem as we speak. Of course, he has only ever used 1 Respec (a Freebie a couple years ago) and has the max stock of Earned Respecs, VetSpecs, yada yada; why waste time talking about it. So I can see the possibility and the desire, but the need I do not see; especially with Dual Builds. And taking the above into consideration; Reason Two begs the question. 2) Is it 'really' to completely change the Build you have gotten to 50 to 'purple out' into a PvP beast, or is it (in my own conspiratorial mindset) that the Player now has another new Character and Build which could make use of many of the Advanced IO Sets better than the 'Now Soon-to-be Abandoned in favor of Another' Character? I hate to say that I (personally) believe it is the latter more likely. But then I dont believe that people are 'basically good and honest' at the core of things. We all raise the Jolly Roger when we want something bad enough; and want what we want, the way we want it, NAO! Not that I am against this, but then it doesnt necessitate a change either. But that is what this Forum is for (and also the reason it is in the 'For Fun' Grouping). And Quint has the rationale correct anywho. And all that just to go along with the Mods desire that I not just say /unsigned. Cant say I dont try to follow the rules. |
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I'm confused. Why is an influence sink a good thing? And even that being the case, the core issue here is that the supply on those is so low and the price so high that I care at all. If I could make a Purple/PVP build in less than a year, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned about saving some of it.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I would say it the other way around. Traditionally RPGs have been a lot more about resource management than shooters. In shooters the only resource management is ammunition, and normally only ammunition in the clip at that since spare ammo is easy to find. RPGs on the other hand tend to have a lot of different consumables and different gear sets and managing them to avoid running out at the wrong time or having the wrong gear on at the wrong tiem is a major part of the game.
in any case I'll say no for pretty much the same reason as everyone else. There are precious few inf sinks in the game and the current market seems to be inflationary as it is. Given that I'd rather not eliminate one of the few inf sinks the game has. |
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That sort of makes sense, but since you can't slot purples until 50 anyway, they won't affect the market for lower rarity sets.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
You are correct, enhancements aren't technically an Inf sink, I was using "inf sink" as a generic term for anything that removes value from the economy. Enhancement sink would be better but saying "slotting enhancements is an enhancement sink" sounds a bit silly. The point I wanted to make was that the limitations on the ability to unslot enhancements serves to (effectively) take enhancements out of circulation. In the case of SOs this isn't actually doing anything, the SOs sell for their purchase price during a respec so the value actually remains in the economy. But in the case of the more valuable IOs and HOs the value is lost. This helps to maintain the value of lower rarity IOs (and especially common IOs) and HOs since people will tend to buy new rather than slotting an old character. It has less impact on the higher value IOs and HOs since people will tend to respec several times to recover the value rather than buying new.
If people could remove enhancements freely the value of common IOs would drop dramatically. Most people would maintain a few sets of mid-level ones for leveling alts instead of crafting a new set for every character. |
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Well, I think my second post did a better job of explaining why being able to unslot enhancements would be a bad thing for the in-game economy but I'll also answer this question. Whenever you play the game and defeat enemies you earn Inf which is injected into the in-game economy. Additionally since only the most basic enhancements (SOs and common IOs) can be purchased from vendors most inf is used in trades with other palyers and remains in the economy after use. The purpose of Inf sinks is to remove some portion of that Inf from the economy to compensate. In an ideal world the amount of Inf removed in this manner is exactly equal to the amount generated. Obviously in real life this isn't the case and the sinks will remove either more or less than the amount generated. The difference between the amount generated and the amount removed is what causes inflation or deflation (a change int he buying power of 1inf). If you removed all Inf sinks from the game then the amount of inf would only increase and this would lead to hyperinflation, more Inf is generated everyday but without a sink to remove it the value of each Inf declines rapidly. After a while (I'm not really sure how long it would take) you'd end up with a situation where Inf was essentially worthless for player to player trade. Once that happens players will either switch to using some semi-common item as a form of currency or just switch to straight barter. I don't know if you ever played Diablo 2 but that is basically what happened there: gold was worthless so the player economy was based on the Stone of Jordan, a unique ring that was duped in sufficient quantities to make a viable economy.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
I'm confused. Why is an influence sink a good thing? And even that being the case, the core issue here is that the supply on those is so low and the price so high that I care at all. If I could make a Purple/PVP build in less than a year, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned about saving some of it.
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Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
That sort of makes sense, but since you can't slot purples until 50 anyway, they won't affect the market for lower rarity sets.
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Have a direct quote or is this anecdotal or blasted off with the old forums? I also remember them saying no to playing as villains either.
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Originally Posted by NeverDark
The devs never came to the forums and said, "You'll never have SSK. In fact, you're lucky to have SKing at all." They have done so on allowing you to keep more than 10 enhancements during a respec.
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Uh, P-B, he wasnt saying that as a direct quote from the Devs, but rather that there never was such a direct quote made by the Devs. Just thought I'd clarify how I read it. And BTW, your Link was to a CoH Launch interview which was dealing with 'how things are going to be in CoH' not 'how things will be when CoV is launched in a year or so'. Being that we know by Dev caveat that CoV was already in development by Issue 2; Player Villains were acknowledged as coming (just not publicly at the time). And that being the case, it is still true. One cannot play as a Villain in Paragon City, or to quote Jack Emmert; "However, the player villains will not be able to actually commit crimes in the game." This is of course solely for City of Heroes/Paragon City, and does not apply to the denizens of the Rogue Isles.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Have a direct quote or is this anecdotal or blasted off with the old forums? I also remember them saying no to playing as villains either.
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Ninus Lvl 50 Bots/Dark/SM Mastermind Badges: 1384 @Ninus on Global
Put an Ebil MasterMind in the Obal Office: It wont be the first time
Campaigning for Global Global Ignore Champion since 2009!
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Sorry I was referring to the second part of his statement and not the first, where he stated that they DID directly talk about the 10 enhancements during a respec, nothing to do with SSK.
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Originally Posted by Ninus
Uh, P-B, he wasnt saying that as a direct quote from the Devs, but rather that there never was such a direct quote made by the Devs. Just thought I'd clarify how I read it. And BTW, your Link was to a CoH Launch interview which was dealing with 'how things are going to be in CoH' not 'how things will be when CoV is launched in a year or so'. Being that we know by Dev caveat that CoV was already in development by Issue 2; Player Villains were acknowledged as coming (just not publicly at the time). And that being the case, it is still true. One cannot play as a Villain in Paragon City, or to quote Jack Emmert; "However, the player villains will not be able to actually commit crimes in the game." This is of course solely for City of Heroes/Paragon City, and does not apply to the denizens of the Rogue Isles.
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Ah. Thanks. I misunderstood. Although I believe I have heard them say that; I cant be dogmatic about it (because I am too tired at the mo' to try and search that statement out). |
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Sorry I was referring to the second part of his statement and not the first, where he stated that they DID directly talk about the 10 enhancements during a respec, nothing to do with SSK.
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Ninus Lvl 50 Bots/Dark/SM Mastermind Badges: 1384 @Ninus on Global
Put an Ebil MasterMind in the Obal Office: It wont be the first time
Campaigning for Global Global Ignore Champion since 2009!
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Taking this stance and claiming that we should be able to keep IOs after a respec makes no sense.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
PS. Some of the features the devs may not consider only come after other MMOs implement such features too. Keeping up with the Jones' maybe a good idea sometimes.
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In the other games, when you have Bind on Pickup or Bind on Equip equipment, it doesn't magically unbind, allowing it to be passed on to others when you respec. It stays bound, leaving you with the option of banking it for personal use, not to trade, deleting it, or vendoring it.
We can always delete an enhancement, we can't always vendor an enhancement, but we can during a respec, and when we pull it out to bank it, we can pass it on to others.
I think we have the more lenient system here.
@Roderick
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In other words, why governments in real life don't just print more money every time they need more capital. In real life, money isn't created out of thin air. It has to come from somewhere, or rather, from someone else. The government earns money from people paying taxes, people earn money either from other people or from government jobs. Every time large amounts of new currency is printed without an equal amount of old currency being retired (e.i. new bills aren't printed to replace old bills), currency devalues, prices increase and people tend to suffer as they still have the same amount of money, but that money isn't worth as much. I already watched the cost of everything increase a hundred-fold overnight in my own country (cost us a government the next day) and I've had to go through a denomination switch, where 1000 of the old currency was worth 1 of the new one.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Well, I think my second post did a better job of explaining why being able to unslot enhancements would be a bad thing for the in-game economy but I'll also answer this question. Whenever you play the game and defeat enemies you earn Inf which is injected into the in-game economy. Additionally since only the most basic enhancements (SOs and common IOs) can be purchased from vendors most inf is used in trades with other palyers and remains in the economy after use. The purpose of Inf sinks is to remove some portion of that Inf from the economy to compensate. In an ideal world the amount of Inf removed in this manner is exactly equal to the amount generated. Obviously in real life this isn't the case and the sinks will remove either more or less than the amount generated. The difference between the amount generated and the amount removed is what causes inflation or deflation (a change int he buying power of 1inf). If you removed all Inf sinks from the game then the amount of inf would only increase and this would lead to hyperinflation, more Inf is generated everyday but without a sink to remove it the value of each Inf declines rapidly. After a while (I'm not really sure how long it would take) you'd end up with a situation where Inf was essentially worthless for player to player trade. Once that happens players will either switch to using some semi-common item as a form of currency or just switch to straight barter. I don't know if you ever played Diablo 2 but that is basically what happened there: gold was worthless so the player economy was based on the Stone of Jordan, a unique ring that was duped in sufficient quantities to make a viable economy.
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In a computer game, players just normally playing the game are constantly printing money. Everyone can get rich, everyone has money to spend, so it takes more money for people to sell, which inflates prices and hurts the few people who DON'T have money to burn. Influence needs to sink out of the game to prevent inflation and maintain a relatively static amount of currency floating through the game. There will always be people who have more, but the point is to keep that more as a percentage of everything, not "just more."
When everyone is rich, no-one is rich at all.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Wa ha ha. Yeah... that was mine.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
the Stone of Jordan
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Not entirely true. Purples and lower rarity IOs are similar to substitute goods (they obviously aren't strict substitutes). As the market price for purples goes up fewer people are willing to buy them and the demand for set IOs that slot in the same powers increases.
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So we're imbalanced somehow. The 50s have an extrodinary ammount of money for some reason and it's pushing purple and pvp IOs to ridiculous values, but that shields the rest of the market from their ridiculous purchasing power. Does that sound right?
I searched, I really did, but in 5 years they haven't really improved the search function that much so if its there, I couldn't find it. I suppose my first suggestion is to allow keyword search using booleans along with tags. Maybe live results would be good too.
Regardless, my suggestion comes from the issue of having someone fully purple/pvp slotted and then deciding on a different style or sets. Doing a respec to save some of your billions investment only saves 10 at most. There's bound to be many others that will be lost or have to be placed again temporarily until you can get another respec recipie (which I've heard people will actually do, respec after respec to save their IOs).
If the enhancement tray grew like the Inspiration tray, say to 40 or 50 eventually, not only would that help with the respec issue which would help with the market scarcity issue, but then people wouldn't have to constantly go to the market to sell dropped enhancements (or just leave them full or delete them like I do). That would improve the market for regular enhancements too.
Anyway, my two cents. Thoughts?