New tactic for RMTers
Honestly I wouldn't know, it was before I started playing but that's just it, you "bet" because nobody knows. I was simply pointing out that while yes some people did that the logic that those same people would use RMT and therefore wreck the game is flawed, for several reasons but that's one.
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Of course no one knows an exact number, but I will guarantee it was a lot more than what you think.
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yea, Ignored them. Couldn't send a petition because I was about to go to bed.
But I was just standing there talking to a few nice people who happend to be new people and some others that are ingame friends. Then this guy goes bounding away spamming what he was spamming.
Ignored as spammer, yep!
And a big NO to buying infl outta game!
"every defender needs to fight. I don't care if you have to use BRAWL!"
I am beginning to think that you are supporting RMT. If players took advantage of easy XP (as they have done since day 1 of CoX and every other MMO), what makes you think they won't take advantage of easy, cheap influence? Saying "I think NCSoft should sell inf because it will stop RMT spamming" does not represent any kind of fact either. What you have been presented with is more than reasonable facts to support the opposite of your assertion. If you really need 100% concrete proof, I don't know what to tell you. |
Both of these things are indicative that my point has gone past you. I don't support RMT. I don't necessarily think that those that took advantage of easy xp wouldn't take advantage of cheap legal influence, in fact I agree they probably would but you can't prove that they would.
The second part of this quote you put words in my mouth... I NEVER, EVER said "I think NCSoft should"... I said it would likely be the only way that RMT would actually stop. I could also say that the death penalty is the only guarantee that a criminal will not become a repeat offender but that doesn't mean I support it. Beyond that I never said it was a fact... I've stated REPEATEDLY that it's all speculation and theory. Both sides of the argument are and you've proven that by saying you can't provide 100% concrete proof... neither can I.
You're also arguing the wrong point... you're approaching it as if I think they should do it... which again... I never said. I was simply speculating that it would likely (in theory) stop RMT, because if you could get it cheap legally, why would you violate the EULA? NEVER did I say it would definitely stop it nor did I say I wanted it.
Ultimately let me say all I think you really want to hear. I agree that legal RMT would have a negative impact on the game (don't know that I'd go as far as to say shut it down as some have implied), and hell I never even said that I DIDN'T agree I just said it couldn't be proven one way or the other. Playing devil's advocate I simply pointed out that we'll never know for certain unless NCSoft does it.
Nobody here wants it to happen and we all know it is extremely unlikely that it will. All we can do is speculate, come up with theories and debate over what would happen if it did but regardless of how well a point is argued nothing is fact until it happens.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
Of course no one knows an exact number, but I will guarantee it was a lot more than what you think.
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Having said that I'm sure you're right... however...
You can't make a guarantee without proof.
So, prove it.
That's what you and Miss_Freeze_NA don't seem to get. I'm not disagreeing with the issues at hand... I'm just saying the effects of something that isn't happening can't be proven unless it does happen. We can only guess.
I'm out for now... please again don't any think I'm trying to argue. Well I'm debating but honestly I enjoy it lol.
Take care.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
I don't think the intent was to say "all players" would buy inf if NCSoft sold it. I wouldn't use it either, but I know quite a few who would simply because it would be dirt cheap to buy and take less time than farming. I would bet that enough players would use it to signficantly hurt the game.
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I just said it couldn't be proven one way or the other. |
However, the absence of a rigorous proof does not render us intellectually defenseless; we can still form reasonable postulates and attack and defend them. This may prove one point or another, in the sense of "prove" that a court of law uses.
( I find "You can't prove it" is usually the argument of someone who has no other defenses . )
Likewise, I find reducing RMT to zero to be a very rigorous definition of success. If we cut RMT trading by 90% from its peak [whatever and whenever that was; I have no measurements of it] I would call that beating the spammers.
Personally, I've kept one of my friends from buying inf from RMT spammers; I consider that to be a small but measurable contribution to quality of life in this game.
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RMT Spammer Behavior
Huh? now why would an RMT spammer think that their most profitable area would be in Atlas in the AE building or in WW? I can conjecture on this, but I think it is pretty clear actually. Just ask yourself why players that would be in either location would be more willing to break the EULA to purchase illegal in-game inf in the AE in Atlas or the WW in Atlas as opposed to other locations in the City? I really think that the DEVs need to be asking themselves this same question. |
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I don't want to see inf sold in the game period.
RMT's are breaking the EULA by selling it.
Players that buy it are breaking the EULA by doing it.
Giving the ability to players to buy inf in game empowers the wealthy in real life to be come wealthy in-game immediately.
Those that are poor and real life then take a hit from the economy changing in game by allowing others to buy inf with real world dollars.
My subscription gives me the same rights in game as anyone else.
Selling inf for real world dollars just opens the can of worms. It solves nothing.
RMT's also offer power-leveling (as a means to get your info so they can steal form you and use your character for RMT'ing), so then there is selling levels for real world dollars.
Then what?
Sell enhancements for real world dollars?
Sell badges for real world dollars?
Allowing multi-boxing is bad enough. The EULA says that there are to be no bots or mechanized game play. Multi-boxing is certainly just that.
Selling Inf seems a great win for the wealthy. It does nothing to stop RMT'ing - it will simply modify their illegal service.
If you want to play a game where you can buy your way to a win, there are plenty on the market.
City of Heroes is not one of them nor do I ever want to see it become one.
True, in the scientific sense; we don't have a control MMO so we can sell currency in one but not the other.
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"You can't prove it" is simply my way of pointing out when something is stated as a matter of fact when in reality, it is not.
Not trying to resurrect the debate but I was thinking and have a semi related question.
Are the spammers trial accounts? If so why not just limit their methods of communication? I know that might limit those on a trial account even more than they are (not sure what the specifics on trial restrictions are) but I imagine it would help.
If they're "real" accounts do the RMTers seriously pay the $20 every time an account gets banned?
Contrary to the impression I apparently gave I do not want to see RMT of any kind... I've just become complacent with the fact that it's probably never going away.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
True, in the scientific sense; we don't have a control MMO so we can sell currency in one but not the other.
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I don't want to see Influence sold in this game, but everyone who wants to buy it already does, that's the reality, so if there is any damage to be done, it's been done. Only, NCsoft isn't getting the profits. The gold sellers are.
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If you asked me where to find the most people in range of a local tell, I'd say "Freedom, Atlas Park, AE or under Atlas or Wentworth's."
If you asked me where to find the most people who were coveting inf RIGHT NOW I'd say "Wentworth's."
So they really are just going where the customers are. Any subtle putdowns of various groups of players are... overthinking things, at best.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
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@Boltcutter in game.
Actually, we do have MMOs that sell in-game currency. There's an entire sector of the MMO industry based around it (Free Realms; Mabinogi; Silk Road Online; many, many others). The model is very financially sound (over 1,000,000 people play Silk Road Online; Habbo Hotel's population dwarfs ours). In fact, the MMO industry in general is heading in this direction (with companies like Cryptic and Sony Online Entertainment leading the charge).
I don't want to see Influence sold in this game, but everyone who wants to buy it already does, that's the reality, so if there is any damage to be done, it's been done. Only, NCsoft isn't getting the profits. The gold sellers are. |
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Actually, we do have MMOs that sell in-game currency. There's an entire sector of the MMO industry based around it (Free Realms; Mabinogi; Silk Road Online; many, many others). The model is very financially sound (over 1,000,000 people play Silk Road Online; Habbo Hotel's population dwarfs ours). In fact, the MMO industry in general is heading in this direction (with companies like Cryptic and Sony Online Entertainment leading the charge).
I don't want to see Influence sold in this game, but everyone who wants to buy it already does, that's the reality, so if there is any damage to be done, it's been done. Only, NCsoft isn't getting the profits. The gold sellers are. |
Anyway, while I don't want to see RMT in CoX I wouldn't be opposed to it in future MMOs as long as it is as Raj mentioned with SOE's games where it is server specific that way you could choose whether or not you wanted to take part in an economy like that.
On the flip side that raises the question... do the people on the non RMT servers buy from 3rd parties to have an advantage over everyone else?
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
True, in the scientific sense; we don't have a control MMO so we can sell currency in one but not the other.
However, the absence of a rigorous proof does not render us intellectually defenseless; we can still form reasonable postulates and attack and defend them. This may prove one point or another, in the sense of "prove" that a court of law uses. ( I find "You can't prove it" is usually the argument of someone who has no other defenses . ) |
It does not take a degree in particle physics or rocket science to understand that if cheap inf were made available, a great deal of the game population would take advantage of it. This would, in turn, directly impact those players who would not take advantage of it, thereby hurting the game.
This. Especially the last part.
It does not take a degree in particle physics or rocket science to understand that if cheap inf were made available, a great deal of the game population would take advantage of it. This would, in turn, directly impact those players who would not take advantage of it, thereby hurting the game. |
I don't want to see RMT in CoX, but the games that Daemondand listed and their success does indicate that it is highly plausible for MMOs to offer such a service without hurting the game.
Edit: Let me also point out that I was not using "you can't prove it" as a defense. I'm not defending RMT. There just isn't sufficient evidence to support either side of what impact it would have on CoX. Personally I hope we never find out.
Edit2: I also don't understand why people use RMT in this game anyway... I'm about to hit 50 on my first toon and half his powers are already filled with set IOs. That's with me keeping him in new IOs every 5 lvls until he hit lvl 40. If there's anything easier than actually leveling in this game, it's making inf.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
Interesting that you seemed to focus on what would support your point of view while looking over something that negates it.
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I could give a hoot less over what other games do. What works for one game does not necessarily mean it will work for CoX, which is the game we are discussing here.
A separate server where RMT is available would need an independent marketplace so as not to impact the other "non RMT" servers.
Pot, meet kettle.
I could give a hoot less over what other games do. What works for one game does not necessarily mean it will work for CoX, which is the game we are discussing here. A separate server where RMT is available would need an independent marketplace so as not to impact the other "non RMT" servers. |
But before you jump to the conclusion of me saying it's plausible meaning that I want it to happen just stop and realize that I'm looking at it objectively rather than the frustrated point of view that you seem to have concerning RMT. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be frustrated but I think it keeps you from being objective.
There are three points of view concerning RMT... those that get angry or frustrated about it (you), those that have accepted it as an issue present in every MMO that will likely never go away and are indifferent about it (me) and those that use/support it (nobody that's going to admit it here). I used to be you on this... when I played WoW I would go out of my way to report every spam I got. I even went as far as to report the name of every toon corpse (about 20) that was used to spell out a specific website in orgrimmar (a high traffic area hordeside kinda like Atlas) and the next day they were back with different names. Eventually I gave up and just accepted the random emails and /tells and corpse spelling as part of the game, so when I came to see it in CoX it didn't matter to me and actually, I see it much less in CoX.
Anyway don't think I support RMT, I used to fight the fight all the time... I just gave up as it's pointless to get upset over it or to think that your reporting a name is going to make a huge impact. It's the same thing as fishbots in FFXI which I'm not going to go into detail about but anyone that played it knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Also, in the hypothetical situation that NCSoft pursues RMT I would assume that they would have the foresight to realize that they would need a separate marketplace for RMT servers.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
You're misinterpreting my point. I don't want CoX to do what other games are doing in terms of RMT (or anything really)... but the fact that these other games are doing it and are successful makes it plausible that it could work in CoX. Look at any other business and you will see very similar things... one company tries something risky, it works, other companies follow suit.
But before you jump to the conclusion of me saying it's plausible meaning that I want it to happen just stop and realize that I'm looking at it objectively rather than the frustrated point of view that you seem to have concerning RMT. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be frustrated but I think it keeps you from being objective. There are three points of view concerning RMT... those that get angry or frustrated about it (you), those that have accepted it as an issue present in every MMO that will likely never go away and are indifferent about it (me) and those that use/support it (nobody that's going to admit it here). I used to be you on this... when I played WoW I would go out of my way to report every spam I got. I even went as far as to report the name of every toon corpse (about 20) that was used to spell out a specific website in orgrimmar (a high traffic area hordeside kinda like Atlas) and the next day they were back with different names. Eventually I gave up and just accepted the random emails and /tells and corpse spelling as part of the game, so when I came to see it in CoX it didn't matter to me and actually, I see it much less in CoX. Anyway don't think I support RMT, I used to fight the fight all the time... I just gave up as it's pointless to get upset over it or to think that your reporting a name is going to make a huge impact. It's the same thing as fishbots in FFXI which I'm not going to go into detail about but anyone that played it knows exactly what I'm talking about. Also, in the hypothetical situation that NCSoft pursues RMT I would assume that they would have the foresight to realize that they would need a separate marketplace for RMT servers. |
Do you want them to go away, or don't you?
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The more you bring this up, Radubadu, the more you're making it sound like you support the RMTers. You've been giving excuses for why it's ok that they exist, and even trying to find ways where they could co-exist in the game without harming anyone.
Do you want them to go away, or don't you? |
I've said nothing to the effect that it's ok that they exist just that I've accepted that they do so if you could refrain from putting words in my mouth that'd be appreciated. Never have I said "I'd love to see RMT be legal" or "I wish NCSoft would incorporate RMT". I've also given no excuses for why it's ok they exist so again... don't put words in my mouth.
This all started because I said IF NCSoft did incorporate it then the 3rd party RMT would likely go away... I didn't say I wanted it to or that I thought NCSoft should, I simply stated a cause and effect scenario as indicated by the words "if" and "then". Again, what's so hard to understand about that?
As previously stated I understand the frustration people have concerning RMT. The fact that I don't get worked up about it and can express an objective point of view or a "what if" scenario does NOT mean I'm lobbying for it to be a normal part of the game. If that's what you're interpreting any of my posts as then you need to work on your comprehension and logic.
Since it seems impossible to have a conversation about this without people jumping to conclusions I'm done, I draw the line at having people put words in my mouth. Re-read my posts and if you still think I'm supporting RMT then you just don't understand where I'm coming from and we will have to agree to disagree, but let me make this abundantly clear... I'm not supporting RMT.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
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Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Sure you are. You're saying that NCSoft should get into RMT because it might get rid of other RMT companies. RMT is RMT, regardless of who is doing it.
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Please direct me to the post where I said NCSoft should... I can't seem to find it.
Yes, I said that IF they did then that MIGHT be the effect. I NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD!
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
My question is... has anyone else seen this?
Since they took away email from these people they resort to using local.
The first one I saw was when the /petition system as down. I figured that they - the RMTs - had a window of opportunity to get away with their nefarious behavior.
And yes, in Atlas on Justice - in WWs and then I followed the character into the AE building in Atlas because I wanted to see what they were up to and use the /batsmash on the scum - which provoked /e evillaugh and /e dance from the RMT'r. It is clear they know what they are dong is wrong.
I used the ignore spammer function to ignore the spammer. As the /petition system was down I went to the website and lodged a complaint there.
Luckily the petitions systems are back up. At least I hope they are still back up! http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=207288
Reporting RMT Spammers
Remember using the Ignore Spammer should be followed by a /petition.
You can ignore spammer by left clicking on their name in the chat window and picking the Ignore Spammer option.
/petition [charactername]
which includes why you are petitioning : examples::
[charactername] on [server] [side] related to @[charactername] said [copy] [paste] [textfromchatwindow]
-or
[charactername] on [server] [side] related to @[charactername] is an RMT spammer for [webiste]
I'm using [] to indicate variables and operations.
Click on the Harassment/Conduct button at the top and then send.
You can get the RMT's global (aka @[handle]) in a couple of ways. I use the Add Note feature that you can get from clicking on their name in the chat window. You can also get their global handle by typing /getglobalname [charactername]
Report RMT spammers by using both Ignore Spammer and /petition
Before this gets out of hand again - yes, you need to do both :: ignore spammer and /petition. Regardless of what any other players end up posting here, it is clear from the past that the DEVs want us to use both the ignore spammer and /petition functions.
I can guarantee that a Red Name isn't going to show up for a while to post in regards to doing both these steps. When/if they do they will say they need both. When a thread like this pops up it might take days or weeks for the DEVs to post (if they post) to verify the procedure. That is always what has ended up happening in the past; 1) some players posting that both aren't necessary and 2) If/when the DEVs finally post the indicate that we need to do both.
Some may think they are helping by saying only to do one or the other, but all they are actually doing is helping the RMT spammers avoid being banned or, at the very least, slowing down the process.
This goes on pretty much every time this subject is brought up.
So if you are against the RMT spammers, don't complain about doing both steps. Do both steps and let's get them out of the City.
They faster these two steps start happening from more players, the faster something will happen to stop the activity.
Do your part to help stomp out RMT spammers in the City.
They are villains and they need to be stopped!
RMT Spammer Behavior
Huh? now why would an RMT spammer think that their most profitable area would be in Atlas in the AE building or in WW?
I can conjecture on this, but I think it is pretty clear actually.
Just ask yourself why players that would be in either location would be more willing to break the EULA to purchase illegal in-game inf in the AE in Atlas or the WW in Atlas as opposed to other locations in the City?
I really think that the DEVs need to be asking themselves this same question.
Okay so Why were you at the Scene of the Crime?!
Oh, why was I there?
I have to admit, with bases on most servers, I have characters parked in the zones used to pay base rent because I'm a bit lazy at times.
I was actually solo-ing an AE story arc mission with my character in this instance as well, and it makes me feel bad about using the AE building in Atlas.
The problem is that it shouldn't. I should be able to run my own AE arc anywhere in the City that I want to if my suggestions aren't taken into account in regards to this matter. Those suggestions would have impacted my ability to use the AE there, but it would have also impacted the reason that the RMT spammers are there.
I get critical a lot, but it is because I love this game. The DEVs have implemented not only some things that I have suggested but tons of things that other players have suggested.
However, I do feel that those suggestions would have curbed this kind of behavior as it is occurring now.
It doesn't make me feel bad about being lazy and parking characters there to pay base rent.
Zoning does take time, and it's easier just to run across down from my last Day Job parking spot than it does to zone into the 0-bus, to Atlas, and back to where ever. I already admitted I'm lazy.
However, this chance occurrence that I logged into a character in Atlas to pay the once monthly base rent and running into an RMT spammer seems to indicate that this is an RMT hotspot.
I'm glad I logged in and caught the RMT'r in the act. I always take time to use both steps to ignore spammer and petition RMT spammers.