I hear ya OP, I'm just letting the account run for a while while I immerse myself in Borderlands.
To reneg on my earlier post:
I haven't canceled my account......I wanted to one day, when for some reason my payment did not go through automatically without me having to do it, which threw off my next veteran reward by a month. 
Joking, but that really did happen.
That said: I did decide to go back and play some old console games that I hadn't finished or in some cases, opened. I thought about getting Final Fantasy 13 to help ease the wait for GR, but from what I hear about it.......nah. Star Ocean 2 and 3 should be more than enough to tide me by until GR releases.
Hell, I've been playing Star Ocean 3 since 2004 and only have half of the battle trophies in the game. 
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
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So you think the Faultline revamp resulted in a tired old zone again?|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
I didnt say remove it all, My thing is to remove half from both CoH and CoV and then bring in MANY new smaller zones with equal amount of content to what is being lost.
Take IP out and bring 4 little mini zones in... With as much content as what was in IP... Terra Volta can just be tacked on to Creys Folly or somethin'. Take out Eden, say the forest overcame it and it was lost... and bring in 2 mini zones to replace it with as much content/ or more than was in Eden to begin with. I am all NOT for revamping old tired zones... |
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Take out half of Nerva and say a tsunami hit that back area... and it is now lost... and replace it with 3 new mini villain zones, and put in enough content for each... I do not see why people are so hell bent on keeping things we have all pretty much done to death, cept for newbies... Let the game snip off the dying parts (meaning dead crappy zones... Skyway anyone?) and have it grow new blossoms in other areas. |
The Hollows revamp wasn't really a revamp in that context.
Also, there is a reason they can't/won't just remove a zone in it's entirety. Mainly because zones also represent a large chunk of game lore and history. Added to that, the storyline for the game going forward may not quite work out with half of the known zones wiped out and things changed so drastically that they are almost unrecognizable.
In addition to all that, you're making that suggestion as a veteran player who has been here for a long time and has seen everything. For new players, as long as the old zones are actually brought up to scratch with the newer stuff, they haven't experienced all that old stuff hundreds of times before so its not 'old' to them.
What you may want is a new game(or at least that's how it comes across), but preserving the basic look and feel of the original game may also be a priority to the dev team.
In my mind, new contacts, missions, arcs and graphics upgrades to old zones pretty much equate to a new zone. Faultline and the Rikti WZ proved this as far as I'm concerned. New content is the aim. New zones only as far as they become necessary to deliver new content is a bit more realistic.
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I can agree to this.
| In my mind, new contacts, missions, arcs and graphics upgrades to old zones pretty much equate to a new zone. Faultline and the Rikti WZ proved this as far as I'm concerned. New content is the aim. New zones only as far as they become necessary to deliver new content is a bit more realistic. |
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Yeah - like if they remade Boomtown or Dark Astoria, they'd both be totally unreconizable from the way they are now - I don't even think of Faultline and the RWZ as being makeovers really, they are new zones.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
In my mind, new contacts, missions, arcs and graphics upgrades to old zones pretty much equate to a new zone. Faultline and the Rikti WZ proved this as far as I'm concerned. New content is the aim. New zones only as far as they become necessary to deliver new content is a bit more realistic.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The important thing here is that they didn't TAKE AWAY anything gameplay-wise when they redid those zones.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yeah - like if they remade Boomtown or Dark Astoria, they'd both be totally unreconizable from the way they are now - I don't even think of Faultline and the RWZ as being makeovers really, they are new zones.
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That's really what it comes down to. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to completely remove old content just out of spite. Yes, some of it is not very good. If anything, I'd like to see missions reviewed and their objectives reassessed, as outdoor defeat-alls with patrols thrown in makes me want to punch people, but by and large, I DO NOT WANT to see content go away to appease the gods of wanton chaos. I'm still sore about the 5th Column being taken out of the game, and that's with them back.|
Originally Posted by Westley
The important thing here is that they didn't TAKE AWAY anything gameplay-wise when they redid those zones.
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And another thing - can we not do massively destructive "revamps" of zones to the point where they may as well BE a new zone? What happened to Faultline is something I never want to see happen to another zone ever again. The reconstruction I'm fine with. The catwalks are all fine and dandy. The lifts are A-OK. But flooding the zone was just a jerk move that destroyed one of the very few truly monumental structures in the game - the Faultline dam wall - by flooding it with water up to about 3/4 of its original height. Dams are impressive. Probably some of the most impressive man-made structures in the world. Flooding the underside of one is just... I don't even know how to describe it without getting myself mod-smacked.
The best way to "revamp" zones is to add better tasks to them and MAYBE add to certain key locations. The Rikti Crash Site to Rikti War Zone transformation was ideal, for instance. The Vanguard base sprung up out of the aether, the old gate shut down and the hospital was boarded up and the Rikti shuttle got levelled up from an almost vertical orientation before, but the zone was not completely changed over. In fact, I recall War Witch explaining that they COULDN'T alter it much as the art team had to choose between massive zone alterations and... I don't remember what else. The Rikti tileset, I believe. Here's what scares me, though - they didn't do it because they couldn't, and if they were able to, they would have. And they SHOULDN'T! The zones themselves are pretty cool, they just need something to DO in them. OK, I can see plopping down a guarded reconstruction project in Boomtown here and there. I can even see turning a few areas into a reconstruction, it has plenty of rubble to go around. But trying to alter the zone in its absolute entirety would be a major mistake.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think it all comes down to the value of the zone in question. How many other people actually thought that flooding Faultline was a massive mistake because the view of the dam was obscured? Basically...if it was just you, then that's not a big enough reason for them not to do it. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The best way to "revamp" zones is to add better tasks to them and MAYBE add to certain key locations. The Rikti Crash Site to Rikti War Zone transformation was ideal, for instance. The Vanguard base sprung up out of the aether, the old gate shut down and the hospital was boarded up and the Rikti shuttle got levelled up from an almost vertical orientation before, but the zone was not completely changed over. In fact, I recall War Witch explaining that they COULDN'T alter it much as the art team had to choose between massive zone alterations and... I don't remember what else. The Rikti tileset, I believe. Here's what scares me, though - they didn't do it because they couldn't, and if they were able to, they would have. And they SHOULDN'T! The zones themselves are pretty cool, they just need something to DO in them. OK, I can see plopping down a guarded reconstruction project in Boomtown here and there. I can even see turning a few areas into a reconstruction, it has plenty of rubble to go around. But trying to alter the zone in its absolute entirety would be a major mistake.
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What I mean is, how much use was Faultline seeing from the game community? We all know that hazard zones were very underutilized. Pretty much all of them became ghost towns a long time ago.
I personally think it's fine to change around a zone that sees practically no use and make it into something useful. That's not something I would do to zones that are always populated...like Atlas, Galaxy, Steel, Cap and St. Martial. That's what Perfect Pain is proposing and I am most definitely not in agreement about it.
well sam, i have to say that i completely disagree with you. if they have good ideas for revamps of dead zones, then its their prerogative and frankly their responsibility to do so. We all have subjective things that may or may not go our way, but as with any suggestion, they ultimately bear the consequences of what suggestions they implement, and holding back a zone improvement because of the pique of a single forum member..well, i think you are realistic enough to understand how it goes.
I just sat in Skyway on one of my 50s on Virtue... and no one was/is there.
Maybe 2 or 3 people... Between the hours of 8Pm EST and 11Pm EST...
A few more came in and out for the TF...
But have you seen HOW MUCH space Skyway is? It is a complete waste of space other than the TF and the badges... They could have a freak electrical storm happen and completely take out 99% of that zone and no one would care, because NO ONE ever goes there...
Well it sure is a good thing that digital space is virtually infinite then, isn't it?
I think I heard a long time ago that the entire Library of Congress could fit on one floppy disk in text format.
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Those zones aren't real, you know? They don't actually take up any 'space'. All bits and bytes. |
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
I just sat in Skyway on one of my 50s on Virtue... and no one was/is there.
Maybe 2 or 3 people... Between the hours of 8Pm EST and 11Pm EST... A few more came in and out for the TF... But have you seen HOW MUCH space Skyway is? It is a complete waste of space other than the TF and the badges... They could have a freak electrical storm happen and completely take out 99% of that zone and no one would care, because NO ONE ever goes there... |
Just thought I'd mention it.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Yeah, I'm not sure what Pain is thinking of. This game can theoretically grow to be as large as the devs feel like making it. The only real limit is the amount of space on our hard drives. And even with all they've added to this game over the years...it takes up less space than a quarter of the space of Dragon Age.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Those zones aren't real, you know? They don't actually take up any 'space'. All bits and bytes.
Just thought I'd mention it. |
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I think you're making it out to be tougher than it is, or than it has to be. One developer can do a LOT to revamp content, so long as by "content" we mean "mission arcs." Sure, one person wouldn't be creating new powers, art, animations, or any of that in addition to missions ... but those things aren't 100% required. There are a ton of assets already available, and if something is really needed, then you could ask a fellow dev to produce the art piece or whatever it is you need.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
thats all nice to say, but i think you really underestimate the manpower commitment needed to do what youa re claiming. as per the recent massively dev interview, we know that mission generation tools were a significant bottleneck and that was one of the reasons that ma came about, coupling that with the until recent stupidly low staffing levels, and do you really think this is feaseable? One developer cant just redo content, it involves a lot of different developers specialties, and would have impacted a number of great things we did get. Now after gr hits, i am hoping for the exact thing you are, that a pass is made on old content, because a lot of fluff could be cut to streamline old taskforces, underused zones, and especially the security chief nonsense, but I am reasonable that if they do that, its going to take more than hiring one new developer. hopefully the accelerated creation tools, plus the increased staffing will allow for a rejuvenated game.
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As for the immediate changes we'd like to see in the old content - like making the contact's cellphone available immediately, and making errands to PvP liaisons and Hero Corps Analysts optional - I'm pretty sure that's just a matter of making adjustments to values in a set of spreadsheets and/or text files. I feel pretty confident it could be done by one person within two days, to all arcs on red side and blue. I don't see how it could possibly be so complicated that it would be otherwise.
On the other hand, if you wanted to include a new Green Line terminal in the southern portion of IP ... I could see where that *might* be a little more complicated because it deals with zone art and animations.
If I was a dev, and I had free rein to do what I wanted to revamp content, I'd begin with the cellphone and errand business outlined above. I might try to do a few other things too, like maybe fix the door errors in the Seer Marino arc, and possibly make changes in the tutorial missions. But the main thing I'd do is start additional, optional lines of content coming from the existing contacts. So you'd visit Azuria, for example, and she'd say something to the effect of "hey, go beat up 10 Hellions as usual - OR - do something new and head to this mission door."
If it is feasible, other methods of acquiring arcs could be employed, such as having contacts appear in instanced zones instead of outside; having an arc be unlocked by defeating a particular street mob; or having an arc unlocked by locating a glowie clue that randomly appears somewhere in a zone.
I'd use the MA interface to generate the basis for the arcs, because it would be much faster than doing it all in text files or spreadsheets. Though of course if I had a special purpose, I could edit the output of the MA to insert features that are not presently in the MA, like a trip trigger, or if I needed to add a sixth mission, or whatever.
If you wanted to revamp a zone - like Boomtown, Perez, or Hollows - that's normally about 5 arcs. You might want to have a new map or set of art assets to give the zone arcs a unique look, so you'd have to request that. I don't think you'd get it done in a month, but unless you got hung up on art, animations, or whatever, it shouldn't take forever.
If I was going to do up a new TF, like an alternate Posi TF, it would probably be aimed at being about 10 missions long, so basically 2 arcs in MA manually pasted together. Style-wise, it would be all door missions; no hunts, patrols, or errands, because I don't really think those are appreciated in TFs. Again, it shouldn't take all that long to work it up; nothing like the six months we often spend waiting for new content.
And, as I've said, the "revamp" or "new content" dev team could be small, even as small as one person.
That's my impression.
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well man, i have to say, i am not a programmer, but from what i have heard the developers say about implementing things that would be similar to your suggestions, they tend to involve a lot more assets than you are considering, and there still is a QA approval system that babs mentioned when asked about breaking up issues to smaller, faster issues, that ads lag too, plus dont forget testing, bugs can pop up during live testing, so give them time for different iterations of each zone "revamp" so add on a few weeks for player beta testing, and there would be testers fatigue if every week had a new test. So i dunno, I'm not calling you out here, but do you have more programming experience than me and can correct these layman's perceptions? or are you making guesses, because they dont seem realistic, but i could easily be wrong.
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Originally Posted by konshu
I think you're making it out to be tougher than it is, or than it has to be. One developer can do a LOT to revamp content, so long as by "content" we mean "mission arcs." Sure, one person wouldn't be creating new powers, art, animations, or any of that in addition to missions ... but those things aren't 100% required. There are a ton of assets already available, and if something is really needed, then you could ask a fellow dev to produce the art piece or whatever it is you need.
As for the immediate changes we'd like to see in the old content - like making the contact's cellphone available immediately, and making errands to PvP liaisons and Hero Corps Analysts optional - I'm pretty sure that's just a matter of making adjustments to values in a set of spreadsheets and/or text files. I feel pretty confident it could be done by one person within two days, to all arcs on red side and blue. I don't see how it could possibly be so complicated that it would be otherwise. On the other hand, if you wanted to include a new Green Line terminal in the southern portion of IP ... I could see where that *might* be a little more complicated because it deals with zone art and animations. If I was a dev, and I had free rein to do what I wanted to revamp content, I'd begin with the cellphone and errand business outlined above. I might try to do a few other things too, like maybe fix the door errors in the Seer Marino arc, and possibly make changes in the tutorial missions. But the main thing I'd do is start additional, optional lines of content coming from the existing contacts. So you'd visit Azuria, for example, and she'd say something to the effect of "hey, go beat up 10 Hellions as usual - OR - do something new and head to this mission door." If it is feasible, other methods of acquiring arcs could be employed, such as having contacts appear in instanced zones instead of outside; having an arc be unlocked by defeating a particular street mob; or having an arc unlocked by locating a glowie clue that randomly appears somewhere in a zone. I'd use the MA interface to generate the basis for the arcs, because it would be much faster than doing it all in text files or spreadsheets. Though of course if I had a special purpose, I could edit the output of the MA to insert features that are not presently in the MA, like a trip trigger, or if I needed to add a sixth mission, or whatever. If you wanted to revamp a zone - like Boomtown, Perez, or Hollows - that's normally about 5 arcs. You might want to have a new map or set of art assets to give the zone arcs a unique look, so you'd have to request that. I don't think you'd get it done in a month, but unless you got hung up on art, animations, or whatever, it shouldn't take forever. If I was going to do up a new TF, like an alternate Posi TF, it would probably be aimed at being about 10 missions long, so basically 2 arcs in MA manually pasted together. Style-wise, it would be all door missions; no hunts, patrols, or errands, because I don't really think those are appreciated in TFs. Again, it shouldn't take all that long to work it up; nothing like the six months we often spend waiting for new content. And, as I've said, the "revamp" or "new content" dev team could be small, even as small as one person. That's my impression. |
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Originally Posted by Slashman
I think it all comes down to the value of the zone in question. How many other people actually thought that flooding Faultline was a massive mistake because the view of the dam was obscured? Basically...if it was just you, then that's not a big enough reason for them not to do it.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
well sam, i have to say that i completely disagree with you. if they have good ideas for revamps of dead zones, then its their prerogative and frankly their responsibility to do so. We all have subjective things that may or may not go our way, but as with any suggestion, they ultimately bear the consequences of what suggestions they implement, and holding back a zone improvement because of the pique of a single forum member..well, i think you are realistic enough to understand how it goes.
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Same deal for Boomtown - I want to see the zone revamped, but I don't want to see the entirety of the rubble removed. Same for Dark Astoria - I want to see more done to the zone, but I don't want to see the fog go.
What am I not saying correctly? How does my wish to retain the LOOK of a zone translate into a wish to not update zones at all? I want to see the zones updated not by remaking the geography, but by giving players a reason to be there. The zones are good enough in terms of terrain. They don't need to be changed. What needs to be added is MISSIONS to do there. That's exactly what happened to the War Zone and no-one ever complained. I don't see why doing the same conservationist update to old zone is suddenly anathema.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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semantics, what counts as a ruining is subjective, you have said as much. that is the point we are making. the devs arent psychic, and cant forsee the specific things players love about zones to know what they can and cant move. Now the fog and rubble are more iconic, but they could be altered if they decide to revamp those zones, and the alteration may or may not sit well with you, thats all i'm saying, that you really cant expect them to read your mind, nor alter their design significantly based on eventual feedback of things that a few players really liked. I'm not saying that you shouldnt like specific elements, nor that you can't be upset when they get altered by a zone revamp, (not that saying that would have any meaning anyhow) just that what you consider ruining really was something that went entirely under the radar of a lot of the players, particularly wehn coupled with the zonewide improvements. Heck, if they change dark astoria, they may change moth graveyard in a manner that i disagree with, but unless it bothers a lot more peopel than me, i just have to accept progress for the whole isnt always progress for me.
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Count me as one of those who liked the original Faultline for what it offered: unique visuals and really, really steep verticals.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
I think it all comes down to the value of the zone in question. How many other people actually thought that flooding Faultline was a massive mistake because the view of the dam was obscured? Basically...if it was just you, then that's not a big enough reason for them not to do it.
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I don't mind that they changed it. Change happens, and I wouldn't chain myself to the dam to prevent it.
But I did like the original. Kudos to whoever designed it.
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| What I mean is, how much use was Faultline seeing from the game community? We all know that hazard zones were very underutilized. Pretty much all of them became ghost towns a long time ago. |
And I bet I wouldn't have been soloing either. There would have been a lot of people in there.
Faultline was uninhabited due to failure to provide content. You see the exact same thing with Perez Park and Boomtown.
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| I personally think it's fine to change around a zone that sees practically no use and make it into something useful. That's not something I would do to zones that are always populated...like Atlas, Galaxy, Steel, Cap and St. Martial. That's what Perfect Pain is proposing and I am most definitely not in agreement about it. |
While they could revamp Boomtown and Perez like they did Faultline, all I really want are some unique stories for those zones.
Perez has, among other things, the Boneyard ... the neighborhood where the Skulls rose up from under the shadow of ... the Shadows. I think we could get more involved with that. Game lore says "most" of the Shadows were killed. What happened to the rest, and what sort of influence were they upon the Skulls? The similarity in the names suggests there could be a linked origin.
Unlike Perez, Boomtown is out of the way and is stocked with foes you'd likely have outleveled by the time you get there (especially with the accelerated leveling we have these days). Boomtown should get a makeover in some way, and one consideration would involve raising the level range of the zone.
As for Skyway, it's an underutilized zone mainly because it offers no content you can't get elsewhere (aside from Synapse TF); it has no university, WW, Vault, or Icon; and players level so quickly these days it's like a surplus zone.
If I was a dev, I'd be inclined to make Skyway roughly equivalent to KR and Hollows. That way you could have content originating in Galaxy with branches that continue in the bordering zones of KR and Perez, and you could have content originating in Atlas that continues primarily in The Hollows and Skyway.
You could even plan mission doors so they take players into zones via the roadways as opposed to by train.
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The devs have a game design mentality that focuses on new assets, new features. Their focus is on risk/reward, and while story is not counted as a reward, new features and new assets are. Consequently, we get just enough story to stitch together our encounters with rewards. |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
... from what i have heard the developers say about implementing things that would be similar to your suggestions, they tend to involve a lot more assets than you are considering
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However, we don't have to do everything that way. We can also create content that is based primarily upon story and re-use existing assets.
If we can use the feature base that currently exists in the MA, and tweak it manually as needed, that would be fine for most projects. Only "epic" pieces of content, like a massive Clockwork nest in Boomtown, or a complete revamp of the Cavern trial, would require new assets.
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| ... and there still is a QA approval system that babs mentioned when asked about breaking up issues to smaller, faster issues, that ads lag too, plus dont forget testing, bugs can pop up during live testing, so give them time for different iterations of each zone "revamp" so add on a few weeks for player beta testing, and there would be testers fatigue if every week had a new test. |
The QA that would be required would be basically the same sort of QA that players using the Mission Architect are required to do on their own arcs. (Except as a dev you might actually be able to fix certain issues!)
I re-ask, how much of this do you "know" from doing, and how much do you assume from being entirely outside the industry? the ma toolset will likely help out a lot once gr hits live, but I still think you are underselling what needs done for official canon content.
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You're still missing the key point here - changing a zone almost completely takes a lot of money and manhours from the level design team. Leaving the zone's geometry largely as is... Just doesn't. Since, as I see it, the problem with, say, Boomtown, isn't that the zone isn't "pretty" enough, but rather that there's nothing to actually DO there, it strikes me as a mistake to overfocus on making it look prettier. That's not the problem. The problem is that these zones no longer have a point, or any content to do in them, so people have no reason to go there. Addressing that will solve the problem, and do so on the cheap.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
semantics, what counts as a ruining is subjective, you have said as much. that is the point we are making. the devs arent psychic, and cant forsee the specific things players love about zones to know what they can and cant move. Now the fog and rubble are more iconic, but they could be altered if they decide to revamp those zones, and the alteration may or may not sit well with you, thats all i'm saying, that you really cant expect them to read your mind, nor alter their design significantly based on eventual feedback of things that a few players really liked. I'm not saying that you shouldnt like specific elements, nor that you can't be upset when they get altered by a zone revamp, (not that saying that would have any meaning anyhow) just that what you consider ruining really was something that went entirely under the radar of a lot of the players, particularly wehn coupled with the zonewide improvements. Heck, if they change dark astoria, they may change moth graveyard in a manner that i disagree with, but unless it bothers a lot more peopel than me, i just have to accept progress for the whole isnt always progress for me.
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The developers once said that revamping an old zone takes as much work as creating a new one. Little wonder, since they said this in the wake of the Faultline revamp, which may as well have BEEN a new zone. But revamping an old zone doesn't HAVE to take as much effort, because it doesn't have to involve massive graphical changes. Whether I like them or not isn't relevant. I won't like them either way, but the point is that changing a zone's geometry costs art resources. Not changing it doesn't. Whether you change it or leave it the same, it doesn't matter, because that's not what'll get people in the zone, as the War Zone proves beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The old, uninhabited zones look just fine. Making them prettier will solve absolutely nothing. They suffer a lack of content, and content can be added without actually fiddling with zone geometry at all. That's what I'm saying. Don't waste their time fixing things that aren't broken when they can be fixing things that ARE on the cheap. Look at what happened to the Hollows. Look at what happened to the Rikti Crash Site. Significant zone improvement with almost no change to the actual zone's geometry.
Personally, if I had to choose between, say, a brand new Boomtown, or the old Boomtown, Pertez Park and Dark Astoria just with new contacts, I'd pick the latter without a second thought.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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[Insert Standard Code Rant Here]
ok fine, that is you, want to hear how many would be disappointed with that? how many people scream re-hash now, there is a perception with content with no new assets that it is dull and worthless. how many people rave about the additional cimoria and hollows stuff? now does that compare to the rwz or faultline's reactions? I cant claim to be authoritative, but i suspect the response would be resounding meh's just because of human nature.
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dan brown sucks.
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Originally Posted by Westley
[Insert Standard Code Rant Here]
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I even reread what I wrote to make sure I didn't accidentally write that somewhere.
People have a habit of turning any negative criticism of this game(even criticism that's carefully explained) into doomsaying.
For the record I don't agree with Perfect Pain on removing all old zones. I can much more get behind zone revamps and making old content better and more in line with the newer stuff we have been getting.
In fact, if the Faultline/Rikti Warzone treatment were to be given to more zones over the past few years, I doubt most of us would have as much to complain about in terms of new content.
Well actually, there would probably still be complaining because there still wouldn't be a moon zone...
Take IP out and bring 4 little mini zones in... With as much content as what was in IP... Terra Volta can just be tacked on to Creys Folly or somethin'.
Take out Eden, say the forest overcame it and it was lost... and bring in 2 mini zones to replace it with as much content/ or more than was in Eden to begin with.
I am all NOT for revamping old tired zones...
Take out half of Nerva and say a tsunami hit that back area... and it is now lost... and replace it with 3 new mini villain zones, and put in enough content for each...
I do not see why people are so hell bent on keeping things we have all pretty much done to death, cept for newbies... Let the game snip off the dying parts (meaning dead crappy zones... Skyway anyone?) and have it grow new blossoms in other areas.