My guess is that melee attacks help you to kill stuff faster. Instead of just using blasts, you can use blasts AND melee attacks.
But having never really played a blaster, I can't say. =/
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You are comparing things in a vacuum.
Elec, Psi, and AR for instance have no tier 3 heavy hitter.
Sonic's Shout does 132.6 with a 2.67 activation time.
Energy's Power Burst does 132.6 damage in 2 seconds of activation.
Rad's Cosmic Burst does 132.6 damage and applies a mag 3 stun in 2.07 seconds of activation.
(Bone Smasher and Energy punch do a total of 253.6 in 2.33 seconds of activation with a 30% chance of a mag 2 stun and a 60% chance of a mag 3 stun)
The only place your claim really holds true is with High recharge IO builds and the Fire and Ice primaries.
Hardly a reasonable comparison.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
That's a very fair point for blaster primaries with weak single target chains like AR or sonic. But psi has a pretty great ST with four attacks with fast animations plus the benefit that you don't need to spend a half second to second getting near a guy.
Compare that to the melee powers in fire or ice which are significantly weaker. And unless you can get a one two combo like with bone smasher/energy punch or havoc punch/charged brawl, I still don't see the point, especially when you consider that such attacks are only really useful vs bosses or stronger, since minions and lieuts die quickly enough to other attacks.
Of course, one could make the case that you could need an extra ST attack if you're not running hasten, but in that case, I can't help but think you'd be better off with hasten instead of the attack. It'd do more for your build as a whole.
I'm with ya OP I don't take melee attacks on blasters ever they blast not melee. If i want to to get up close and personnal i'll go play my scrapper.
Beside the point that not everyone takes Hasten (I personally hate the power. The buff it offers is nice but offers little else and I hate putting any powers on auto), there's also the opportunity for mixed damage types. In your Fire/EM example vs a robot, your fire attacks simply go unresisted. But throw an energy/smashing attack and they take additional damage. This can be great for sets like Psi Blast or AR/Archery when facing a foe that resists your damage.
You add in the 'time to set up' as if it's static. Sometimes you have to set up ranged attacks too. Sometimes the foe runs up to you and requiring no additional effort on melee attacks. Unless you have some sort of mass AoE control that will stop enemies in their tracks, it's not as simple as adding half a second to melee attacks only.
Thirdly, if we're talking IOs, melee sets offer some nice bonuses if you can afford them.
And finally, concept. People might have more concepts for an archer that wraps electricity around their hands or shoot blasts of sound and being equipped with a cryo beam saber. Fewer people might have concepts for someone that shoots fire and their fire blasts recharge fast.
I have Energy Punch and Bonesmasher on my main Nrg/Nrg and I use them quite a bit. Enemies don't always stick to ranged attacks, y'know.
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It's true. I could abandon all my melee attacks....
If I like killing things half as slow....
And be 1/4 the wrecking machine that I am if I had my melee attacks.
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Please explain with numbers instead of making a generic statement. What's your build? What are the numbers on your ST chain?
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Originally Posted by Nemu_
It's true. I could abandon all my melee attacks....
If I like killing things half as slow.... And be 1/4 the wrecking machine that I am if I had my melee attacks. |
Fire/elec, so I have a very good ST chain in fire blast itself. But with the melee attacks I'm much more dangerous. I could go on but I'd rather show you.
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Are you aware that Flares & Fire Blast both do less damage for their animation time (DPA) than Energy Punch or Bone Smasher from Energy Manipulation or Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch from Electricity Manipulation?|
Originally Posted by Illumancer
I ask because my current attack chain is blaze (3.48 recharge and 1 sec cast), fire blast (1.39 sec recharge 1.67 sec cast) and flares (.76 sec recharge, 1s cast) with fireball, a hold, aim, or buildup thrown in there if there's a moment downtime.
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Base DPA at level 50
Flares: 63
Fire Blast: 51
Compare that to:
Energy Punch: 131
Bone Smasher: 96
So, Energy Punch or Charged Brawl does over TWICE the DPA of your second best ranged attack, which is Flares. Bone Smasher or Havoc Punch do about 50% better damage. The only attack you have that does better DPA than your melee attacks is Blaze. An attack chain incorporating your melee attacks will do significantly higher DPS than using only your blasts.
Plus, which has already pointed out, Fire Blast has an atypically good ST attack chain to begin with. Other sets will benefit even more from using their melee attacks.
Q: Why take blaster melee ST attacks?
A: Because sometimes it's more fun to run up and punch 'em in the nose than it is to sit back and pew pew 'em from afar.
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Pretty much this. | (Bone Smasher and Energy punch do a total of 253.6 in 2.33 seconds of activation with a 30% chance of a mag 2 stun and a 60% chance of a mag 3 stun) |
On a fire/elec or fire/en I can hit BU, Aim, and come close to eliminating a boss before they wear off.
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Okay, that is a compelling argument for those two powers or for charged brawl/havoc punch. I'm not sure I'd personally use them given the setup time (which is nontrivial and obviously higher for melee powers than for ranged) and increased risk/damage. Is there any argument to be made for the other powers, such as fire sword (longer cast time for worse results than the four powers above), any of the ice melee, total focus, or thunderstrike (3.3 sec cast time)?
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Are you aware that Flares & Fire Blast both do less damage for their animation time (DPA) than Energy Punch or Bone Smasher from Energy Manipulation or Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch from Electricity Manipulation?
Base DPA at level 50 Flares: 63 Fire Blast: 51 Compare that to: Energy Punch: 131 Bone Smasher: 96 So, Energy Punch or Charged Brawl does over TWICE the DPA of your second best ranged attack, which is Flares. Bone Smasher or Havoc Punch do about 50% better damage. The only attack you have that does better DPA than your melee attacks is Blaze. An attack chain incorporating your melee attacks will do significantly higher DPS than using only your blasts. Plus, which has already pointed out, Fire Blast has an atypically good ST attack chain to begin with. Other sets will benefit even more from using their melee attacks. |
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Even con or what level?
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Pretty much this.
On a fire/elec or fire/en I can hit BU, Aim, and come close to eliminating a boss before they wear off. |
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Total Focus actually does fairly mediocre damage for its cast time, roughly 60 DPA. However, it does have other uses. The 100% mag 3 stun can be very useful when stacked with another control power to mez bosses. I regularly use a combo of Power Thrust, Beanbag & Total Focus on my AR/EM when fighting bosses.
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Originally Posted by Illumancer
Is there any argument to be made for the other powers, such as fire sword (longer cast time for worse results than the four powers above), any of the ice melee, total focus, or thunderstrike (3.3 sec cast time)?
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Double post...
I don't use any melee attacks on my Blaster and I can solo AVs and GMs on her ^_^
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A lot of people seem to play with an inviolate attack chain that they repeat incessantly. I attack more situationally; I watch how many hit points my enemies have and often use an attack that reduces the number of opponents in the most efficient way, which may involve using a lower damage attack out of sequence on an enemy that will be eliminated by that lower damage attack, instead of continuing to cycle the main attack chain on the current target. That may also mean attacking with a hard-hitting melee attack in the middle of a ranged attack chain if the opportunity presents itself (a target has the amount of hit points that the melee attack will take it out of action). This isn't as hard as it might seem because you can change targets during power activations, mouse over targets to see their hit points, and queue attacks.|
Originally Posted by Illumancer
Usually my attack chain goes build up, blaze, fire blast, flares, fire blast, blaze, repeat.
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Many melee attacks have a secondary effect (stun, for Energy). Total Focus will stun most LTs outright. That and Stun will stun most bosses. Bone Smasher stuns 60% of the time. Mezzing or KBing enemies provides mitigation that raw damage does not. If you do this properly, you can deal with larger spawns.
If you have a blaster with high ranged defense you use your mezzing/KBing melee attacks to deal with mobs that move within melee range. Since the melee attacks do more damage, they put the mobs down faster even if the mez effect doesn't happen to fire (as with Bone Smasher).
If you just want to always push the same sequence of buttons in all situations, yeah, you don't want melee attacks. Just hover and repeat until they're all dead. But if you want to pay attention to the situation and take advantage of synergies that you have with team mates, melee attacks can be very handy.
For example, let's say I'm a Fire/Energy blaster teamed with a Dark/Dark scrapper. Once the scrapper's got a boss in Oppressive Gloom, your blaster's Total Focus or Stun will stun the boss in one shot. This can be very handy, especially for things like Master Illusionists which spawn lots of other nasties.
Similarly, things like Paragon Protectors and Fake Nemeses go into MoG/Unstoppable or PFF when they get low on hits. If you have two mezzing attacks you can hit them when they get to a little less than half and they'll be stunned and unable to go MoG/PFF. You can finish them off withou wasting all that time waiting for the PFF to go down or MoG to end. So, a Sonic/Energy blaster with Screech and Stun or a Fire/Energy blaster with Stun and Total Focus can save themselves a lot of time and grief by stacking mezzes.
Having the mez effects on the melee attacks gives you more tactical options. You don't just have to gut it out trading shots with the enemy hoping you'll last longer than they will.
Mitigation ?
Secondary melee attacks often have all the mitigation you are going to get.
Weather it be knockback, that extra hold or stun that lets you lock down a boss, its what you got when they are in your face.
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Because not all secondaries do just damage and their intended purpose is exactly for that variance.|
Originally Posted by Illumancer
Okay, that is a compelling argument for those two powers or for charged brawl/havoc punch. I'm not sure I'd personally use them given the setup time (which is nontrivial and obviously higher for melee powers than for ranged) and increased risk/damage. Is there any argument to be made for the other powers, such as fire sword (longer cast time for worse results than the four powers above), any of the ice melee, total focus, or thunderstrike (3.3 sec cast time)?
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/Fire is almost nothing but raw damage there's very little mitigation in it at all. Slow and avoid in Hot Feet and immobilize in Ring of Fire is about it.
/Elec is mostly damage with a few more utility powers.
/Energy is a nice mix of fast activating and hard hitting attacks that also mix in several single target stuns. It has many of the best and most unique utility powers of all blaster secondaries.
/Mental is a mixed bag of utlity powers which includes a HUGE regen and recovery engine it also has a few attacks and an extra ranged AoE damage power (also unique among secondaries).
/Ice is a mitigation heavy secondary utilizing slows and enemy -recharge. Damage from the secondary is not it's forte'.
/Devices is also a mitigation and utility heavy secondary though it is painfully slow to use. So slow infact that most of the powers in that secondary will see little, if any, use in a team setting.
All that said just a quick run through of a few of my favorite blasters.
My main is an Energy/Energy/Force Blapper. Focused mainly on the melee attacks. I run a mere 7% defense to all positions. I have my Primary slotted FOR knockback and use my primary for both mitigation and AoE Damage. I'm consistantly toe to toe with the mobs and only die when I get a string of bad rolls. I don't have to set the fight up to use my melee attacks I let the mobs do that for me.
My next favorite has an entirely different play style. It's not the active constant mover that my main is. My Arch/Dev/Munitions soloed almost exclusively to level 50 it was slow and methodical and played as a stealthy trapper. It's my only blaster ever to arrive at level 50 without even the first debt badge.
Next is my Sonic/Ice/Elec. He can stack AoE sleeps (Sirens+Frozen Aura) and then mez a single sleeping foe (minion or lieut with Screech and boss with Shocking Bolt+Freezing Touch) and use single target damage to defeat it. Screech is amusing against minions and lieuts since the mob is charging me in his sleep and the stun makes him unable to activate any powers but he's kind enough to toodle on over so I can smack him with Ice Sword. When Sirens is recharged I get AoE damage in by using Shockwave+Howl+Sirens. When I really want to be sick Sirens+Frozen Aura followed by EM Pulse + Dreadful Wail leaves any thing that survives stunned until after I begin recovering End. It's an easy matter to hit Sirens + Frozen Aura and just mop up.
Lately I've been quite charmed by 2 new blappers that I've created.
My Ice/Fire is a medium recharge/medium defense IO build. I use the slows, -rech, and single target ranged holds in the primary (and Hot Feet) to become a PBAoE monster. BiB and Ice Sword drops what my initial alpha doesn't melt.
My Rad/Fire is a low recharge/high defense IO Build. I wade in using the defense from the IOs and an occasional purple insp to mitigate the alpha and literally mass AoE stuff to death. The only thing that survives the alpha is bosses and they take so much damage so fast that the run AI kicks in. Hot Feet makes sure that the rapidly combusting bosses are around and in range long enough that a quick Neutrino Bolt or X-Ray Beam is all that's required to finish them off.
Lots of styles, lots of options, just the way I like it.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Well, yes. You use powers dependent upon the situation. When you mainly stay with a ranged attack chain, you can alternate your powers depending upon which enemies need what to finish them off. |
Originally Posted by Rodion
A lot of people seem to play with an inviolate attack chain that they repeat incessantly. I attack more situationally; I watch how many hit points my enemies have and often use an attack that reduces the number of opponents in the most efficient way, which may involve using a lower damage attack out of sequence on an enemy that will be eliminated by that lower damage attack, instead of continuing to cycle the main attack chain on the current target. That may also mean attacking with a hard-hitting melee attack in the middle of a ranged attack chain if the opportunity presents itself (a target has the amount of hit points that the melee attack will take it out of action). This isn't as hard as it might seem because you can change targets during power activations, mouse over targets to see their hit points, and queue attacks.
Many melee attacks have a secondary effect (stun, for Energy). Total Focus will stun most LTs outright. That and Stun will stun most bosses. Bone Smasher stuns 60% of the time. Mezzing or KBing enemies provides mitigation that raw damage does not. If you do this properly, you can deal with larger spawns. If you have a blaster with high ranged defense you use your mezzing/KBing melee attacks to deal with mobs that move within melee range. Since the melee attacks do more damage, they put the mobs down faster even if the mez effect doesn't happen to fire (as with Bone Smasher). If you just want to always push the same sequence of buttons in all situations, yeah, you don't want melee attacks. Just hover and repeat until they're all dead. But if you want to pay attention to the situation and take advantage of synergies that you have with team mates, melee attacks can be very handy. For example, let's say I'm a Fire/Energy blaster teamed with a Dark/Dark scrapper. Once the scrapper's got a boss in Oppressive Gloom, your blaster's Total Focus or Stun will stun the boss in one shot. This can be very handy, especially for things like Master Illusionists which spawn lots of other nasties. Similarly, things like Paragon Protectors and Fake Nemeses go into MoG/Unstoppable or PFF when they get low on hits. If you have two mezzing attacks you can hit them when they get to a little less than half and they'll be stunned and unable to go MoG/PFF. You can finish them off withou wasting all that time waiting for the PFF to go down or MoG to end. So, a Sonic/Energy blaster with Screech and Stun or a Fire/Energy blaster with Stun and Total Focus can save themselves a lot of time and grief by stacking mezzes. Having the mez effects on the melee attacks gives you more tactical options. You don't just have to gut it out trading shots with the enemy hoping you'll last longer than they will. |
Also, depending on your build, you can get a lot more out of messing/stopping enemies with powers like char or frozen touch (though it is melee as well, making it somewhat obnoxious).
Maybe my perspective's a little skewed, being fire/ice. And becaues I run with superspeed/superjump. Ice patch gives great group control, frozen touch and char hold bosses, especially when combined with aim. Seriously though, I would NOT want to rely on a power with a 3.3 sec casting time for a stun. Especially if it's melee and if you need an additional power to lock them down; you'll take a hit or two during that time. When you're trying to solo two +4 Cimmorean bosses, that's more than enough for them to kill you dead.
Maybe things are different in the /energy world where you don't have a second quick and reliable hold. *shrug* But if a melee power with that long a casting time's what you're relying on to hold down a high level boss... Seems dangerous to me and not worth the risk.
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Well, see, that's your problem.|
Originally Posted by Illumancer
Maybe things are different in the /energy world where you don't have a second quick and reliable hold. *shrug* But if a melee power with that long a casting time's what you're relying on to hold down a high level boss... Seems dangerous to me and not worth the risk.
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You keep using Total Focus's animation time as the baseline. It's not. It's an incredible outlier.
Look at all the more common (and more readily usable) ones:
Power Thrust: 1s
Charged Brawl/Energy Punch: 0.83s
Havok Punch/Bone Smasher: 1.5s
Shocking Grasp: 1s
Fire Sword: 1.33s
Mind Probe: 1.17s
Stop looking at TF/TS as the only Blaster Melee worth taking. Or at least quit using it as a strawman.
Also, stop thinking that a Blapper would walk into melee against foes seriously dangerous in melee (your 2 +4 Cim boss example). No smart Blaster, or Blapper, just walks in. They pick off at range then hop in to take a quick attack of opportunity with a melee attack that tends to outdamage the blasts, second for second.
And finally, what's too dangerous for you is exciting for someone else.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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You have to learn to kite. Turn on Super Speed and que up Total Focus. Zip in and out of melee range before the boss can react. You can easily start 80 feet away and then have the full 3.3 seconds of activation happen after you are another 80 feet away. Que up stun and zip back by. Mezzed boss now easy pickings for what ever you want to hit him with. Throw in Stun every time ir recharges and he'll never lay a glove on you.|
Originally Posted by Illumancer
Well, yes. You use powers dependent upon the situation. When you mainly stay with a ranged attack chain, you can alternate your powers depending upon which enemies need what to finish them off.
Also, depending on your build, you can get a lot more out of messing/stopping enemies with powers like char or frozen touch (though it is melee as well, making it somewhat obnoxious). Maybe my perspective's a little skewed, being fire/ice. And becaues I run with superspeed/superjump. Ice patch gives great group control, frozen touch and char hold bosses, especially when combined with aim. Seriously though, I would NOT want to rely on a power with a 3.3 sec casting time for a stun. Especially if it's melee and if you need an additional power to lock them down; you'll take a hit or two during that time. When you're trying to solo two +4 Cimmorean bosses, that's more than enough for them to kill you dead. Maybe things are different in the /energy world where you don't have a second quick and reliable hold. *shrug* But if a melee power with that long a casting time's what you're relying on to hold down a high level boss... Seems dangerous to me and not worth the risk. |
What about the second Boss you say? Why, a quick Power Thrust every time he comes close will let you juggle him until you are ready to deal with him too.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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True that on the different styles. I only brought up TF since the question of secondary effects came in. Going onto other powers though, the -10% recharge is not why anyone uses ice sword. Or at least, I wouldn't expect it to be, since it is very minor. |
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Well, see, that's your problem.
You keep using Total Focus's animation time as the baseline. It's not. It's an incredible outlier. Look at all the more common (and more readily usable) ones: Power Thrust: 1s Charged Brawl/Energy Punch: 0.83s Havok Punch/Bone Smasher: 1.5s Shocking Grasp: 1s Fire Sword: 1.33s Mind Probe: 1.17s Stop looking at TF/TS as the only Blaster Melee worth taking. Or at least quit using it as a strawman. Also, stop thinking that a Blapper would walk into melee against foes seriously dangerous in melee (your 2 +4 Cim boss example). No smart Blaster, or Blapper, just walks in. They pick off at range then hop in to take a quick attack of opportunity with a melee attack that tends to outdamage the blasts, second for second. And finally, what's too dangerous for you is exciting for someone else. |
Different playstyles I suppose. I guess for the same reason not everyone plays fire/mental or ice/mental (not to mention that that would be a very boring world).
Hi everyone,
I've run a couple of blasters (my main's one at 50) and lately, I've been wondering, is there any reason at all to take the blaster ST attacks at 50? It's a whole different matter while you're actually leveling (not that I ever did) because some people might want additional attacks to firm up their single-target attack chain, but is there really any point to having any of them in your final attack chain?
Downsides:
1) You expose yourself to much greater risk/damage.
2) It takes half a second or more to set up the attack.
3) Most melee attacks have a strong smashing/lethal component and those damage types are the most likely to be resisted.
4) The damage isn't worth it.
I ask because my current attack chain is blaze (3.48 recharge and 1 sec cast), fire blast (1.39 sec recharge 1.67 sec cast) and flares (.76 sec recharge, 1s cast) with fireball, a hold, aim, or buildup thrown in there if there's a moment downtime.
Usually my attack chain goes build up, blaze, fire blast, flares, fire blast, blaze, repeat.
Base damage on flares is 63.2, base on fire blast is 92.6
Compare that to one of the most damaging ST attacks: total focus with a base damage of 212.3, and a cast time of 3.3 secs. Even forgetting however time it takes to set up a melee attack (half second to a second), within that same amount of time, you could hit a flares, fire blast, flares combo for a total of 219 damage. And that's the most basic of combos (not even pulling blaze or another power).
This is also ignoring that total focus has a large smashing/lethal component and those are the damage types most likely to be resisted.
Of course, the numbers are kinda deceptive here since fire has one of the best ST chains, but still. Even compared to bone smasher 144.6 at a 1.5 sec casting time, a single target ranged chain still stacks up well considering 1) you don't stay in melee and 2) the time it takes to set up the attack 3) once you've IOed out, your heavy power (blaze/bitter ice blast/proton volley) comes up often enough that you don't need a melee ST in your attack chain (mine's up every 3.5 secs).
Similar numbers hold true for any other primary with a decent ST chain like ice or rad, and compared to powers like havoc punch, or thunder strike. (I consider shocking grasp more a melee hold with a great damage bonus).
Now a case could definitely be made for an aoe melee attack like fire sword circle as that could firm up an aoe attack chain, but is there really any point to taking the melee ST attacks?
I don't mean to crap on anyone's favorite powers here, I'm honestly curious. Am I missing something? Is there any point to taking those powers? They seem to be all risk and no return for me. What are your thoughts?