Shields and Power "handedness"


Alamo

 

Posted

Recently, I had an idea for a character concept I found interesting, and went to see if I could create it. My character concept called for him to carry a shield while using spines. Unfortunately, I know Spines are not available to a Tanker (which is what I really wanted him to be), but I thought that creating him as a Scrapper wouldn't be too bad. Sadly, I learned that you cannot select both Spines and Shields.

Since the shields animate as attached to the left forearm, I can understand the "greying out" of an attack powerset, like katana - the thought being that you can't effectively use a weapon in the same hand. But other than Battle Axe and War Mace, every other melee powerset has at least one attack that utilizes both hands. (Honestly, even those two have animations that include the left hand - Taunt, if nothing else.)

This leads me to my question. What is the justification for not allowing a character to use Shields and Spines at the same time? Is there some actual REASON for it, animation-wise (and please don't say "clipping issues," as there are a MILLION clipping problems that ARE allowed), or is it that there is some overlap of the powersets that would make a character using both powersets to be overly-powerful?

I just hate to lose an interesting character concept, for no good reason.


 

Posted

Probably the same reason you can't use Dual Blades or Claws with a shield: it uses an attack stance that requires both hands. Those 2-hands sets require the 'nodes' on both hands, leaving no 'node' on the character to hold a shield.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Probably the same reason you can't use Dual Blades or Claws with a shield: it uses an attack stance that requires both hands. Those 2-hands sets require the 'nodes' on both hands, leaving no 'node' on the character to hold a shield.
This is what i recall as well.


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Posted

Also, it's probably not accidental that Claws and Spines are terrific AoE sets that would synergize well -- perhaps too well -- with Shield's Against All Odds damage bonus. It would certainly be either almost overpowered or completely overpowered, depending on your point of view. That may or may not have occurred to the Devs, but I assume it's part of the reason.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
Also, it's probably not accidental that Claws and Spines are terrific AoE sets that would synergize well -- perhaps too well -- with Shield's Against All Odds damage bonus. It would certainly be either almost overpowered or completely overpowered, depending on your point of view. That may or may not have occurred to the Devs, but I assume it's part of the reason.
That doesn't explain Electric Melee.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zem View Post
That doesn't explain Electric Melee.

Electric Melee does not involve a weapon of any kind. Claws, Dual Blades, and Spines a use the dual weapon combat mode, which precludes the use of a shield. The culprits in the case of Spines are Barb Swipe and Ripper at least, as they make use of the left hand node that needs to be free for a shield.

The reason some powersets have animations that use both hands is because those animations do not involve a weapon being in the node on the left arm, leaving it free to have a shield there.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Electric Melee does not involve a weapon of any kind. Claws, Dual Blades, and Spines a use the dual weapon combat mode, which precludes the use of a shield.
I know. That's not the point to which I was responding.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zem View Post
That doesn't explain Electric Melee.
Is Electric melee a top-tier AoE set? Last I heard, someone was complaining that other than Lightning Rod, it's lackluster. Haven't used it myself.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
Is Electric melee a top-tier AoE set? Last I heard, someone was complaining that other than Lightning Rod, it's lackluster. Haven't used it myself.
Is Claws a "top-tier" AoE set? Just saying it's unlikely the AoE effectiveness of the set has anything to do with it not being allowed with Shields. It's all to do with the animations being compatible, as others here are pointing out.

Unless you're a Stalker that is, in which case it's because the devs hate you.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zem View Post
Is Claws a "top-tier" AoE set? Just saying it's unlikely the AoE effectiveness of the set has anything to do with it not being allowed with Shields. It's all to do with the animations being compatible, as others here are pointing out.

Unless you're a Stalker that is, in which case it's because the devs hate you.
Well, yeah, but... LOLStalkers


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Posted

you know, its probably for the sole reason that Quills + AAO would be so friggen rediculous...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zem View Post
Is Claws a "top-tier" AoE set?
Yeah. Spin is the best PBAoE in the game. Shockwave is a staple of completing the hardest Scrapper challenges.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
This is what i recall as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Probably the same reason you can't use Dual Blades or Claws with a shield: it uses an attack stance that requires both hands. Those 2-hands sets require the 'nodes' on both hands, leaving no 'node' on the character to hold a shield.
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But the OTHER melee sets that have an animation with the left hand DON'T require a "node"? If a "node" is simply a point on the character map where they anchor something (weapon), wouldn't they also need to anchor the center point for the animation for ANY power?

For example, Energy Melee...the "pink pom poms of death". Wouldn't it need a "node" centered on each fist, for the animation to show there? Sounds just a bit fishy to me.

Oh well, I ended up making the character as an Energy / Shield Brute. It goes just as well with his Magic origin, and I'm hoping with the Going Rogue expansion, I'll be able to have him walk the line between hero and villain...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineWolf View Post
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But the OTHER melee sets that have an animation with the left hand DON'T require a "node"? If a "node" is simply a point on the character map where they anchor something (weapon), wouldn't they also need to anchor the center point for the animation for ANY power?

For example, Energy Melee...the "pink pom poms of death". Wouldn't it need a "node" centered on each fist, for the animation to show there? Sounds just a bit fishy to me.

Oh well, I ended up making the character as an Energy / Shield Brute. It goes just as well with his Magic origin, and I'm hoping with the Going Rogue expansion, I'll be able to have him walk the line between hero and villain...


The simplest way I can think to explain it is a "node" is something to attach an object to, as opposed to the Nrg Melee pompoms, which are power "effects" (for lack of a better word). (I believe this also explains the difference between Weapon Customization and Power Customization and why we were able to change weapons before changing powers)


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Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineWolf View Post
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But the OTHER melee sets that have an animation with the left hand DON'T require a "node"? If a "node" is simply a point on the character map where they anchor something (weapon), wouldn't they also need to anchor the center point for the animation for ANY power?

For example, Energy Melee...the "pink pom poms of death". Wouldn't it need a "node" centered on each fist, for the animation to show there? Sounds just a bit fishy to me.

Oh well, I ended up making the character as an Energy / Shield Brute. It goes just as well with his Magic origin, and I'm hoping with the Going Rogue expansion, I'll be able to have him walk the line between hero and villain...
Like MutantX was saying: Energy melee (and similar) powers are animation FX. Weapons are like costume pieces now. Similarly to being only able to have Wings OR a cape because they both use the 'node' attached to the back; shields, axes, spines, swords, etc. are costume pieces that require a 'node' from the arm to attach to the character.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Like MutantX was saying: Energy melee (and similar) powers are animation FX. Weapons are like costume pieces now. Similarly to being only able to have Wings OR a cape because they both use the 'node' attached to the back; shields, axes, spines, swords, etc. are costume pieces that require a 'node' from the arm to attach to the character.
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I guess I just have a mental block about this. I can easily understand coding a shield, axe, or sword as a costume piece would require a 'node' to attach to. But I can't understand why all powers that are obviously animation FX (Dark Melee, Electricity Melee, Energy Melee, Fire Melee, and Ice Melee), and those which somehow are less obviously animation FX (Claws and Spines) aren't treated the same way.

I was pretty sure that ALL the animation FX sets have AT LEAST one power in which the animation is either two-handed, or switches hands between strikes.

I might buy Claws as being specifically linked to each hand 'node', and being a "costume piece", since you COULD choose two different looks for right and left hand claws right from the main COSTUME tab...but that still leaves Spines as a standout. You can only select a look for your spines under the POWERS tab in the costume creator. To me, that would say they are coded more like the animation FX than the weapon skins.

I'm honestly not trying to be difficult about this, if it really is just a "numbers issue", which would create an unbalanced (overly-powerful) character, I fully understand. I'm not a min-maxer, and I'm not trying to figure out ways to get around the rules...I'm just one of those people who likes the rules to make some kind of sense to me.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineWolf View Post
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I guess I just have a mental block about this. I can easily understand coding a shield, axe, or sword as a costume piece would require a 'node' to attach to. But I can't understand why all powers that are obviously animation FX (Dark Melee, Electricity Melee, Energy Melee, Fire Melee, and Ice Melee), and those which somehow are less obviously animation FX (Claws and Spines) aren't treated the same way.

I was pretty sure that ALL the animation FX sets have AT LEAST one power in which the animation is either two-handed, or switches hands between strikes.

I might buy Claws as being specifically linked to each hand 'node', and being a "costume piece", since you COULD choose two different looks for right and left hand claws right from the main COSTUME tab...but that still leaves Spines as a standout. You can only select a look for your spines under the POWERS tab in the costume creator. To me, that would say they are coded more like the animation FX than the weapon skins.

I'm honestly not trying to be difficult about this, if it really is just a "numbers issue", which would create an unbalanced (overly-powerful) character, I fully understand. I'm not a min-maxer, and I'm not trying to figure out ways to get around the rules...I'm just one of those people who likes the rules to make some kind of sense to me.
Ripper draws a weapon with the left hand, using the exact same animation and nodes as Eviscerate.

There are only 3 powers in Spines that use the left hand, but since those 3 powers exist they cannot remove the weapon from the node on the left hand.

Every two handed animation was tweaked to allow it to be used with a shield. Really look at Bonesmasher sometime with a shield. You'll notice that the arms are seperated when they animate. On non-shield sets the hands are linked during animation.

Hurl uses just one hand, probably due to the left hand node being required for the power.

There are a lot of things that were adjusted to allow for shields, but Katana, Spines, Claws, and Dual Blades were unadjustable by their very nature.

I'll try to find the post from BaBs where he breaks down the combat stances.

As far as I'm aware, Spines and Thorns (the dominator set) are the only sets that are coded with both power effects and weapon skins. That's why they were unadjustable until they had the ability to adjust both at once. The spines sticking out of your body are a weapon skin, they had the ability to change those when weapon customization was released. However, all the projectiles are a power effect, if you changed just the weapon skin, the projectiles would still be the original spines. That's why we had to wait to customize them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineWolf View Post
You can only select a look for your spines under the POWERS tab in the costume creator. To me, that would say they are coded more like the animation FX than the weapon skins.
Spines can only be customized via power customization because while the spines covering your body are essentially the same as any weapon, several Spines powers fling spines through the air, which cannot be accomplished with weapon customization.


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Posted

Ehh id go for a funny looking toon just have a claws/sheild scrapper

Besides, Energy Transfer looks so ridiculous on a sheilder, we should at least be able to have eviscerate


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alamo View Post
Ehh id go for a funny looking toon just have a claws/sheild scrapper

Besides, Energy Transfer looks so ridiculous on a sheilder, we should at least be able to have eviscerate
i'd suggest reading the thread again. It was explained several times that it wasn't simply looks that make sets like Claws and Spines unusable with shields, it's because there are a limited number of nodes on the character models for attaching costume pieces like Claws, Spines and Shields and a node cannot have more than one piece attached.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
i'd suggest reading the thread again. It was explained several times that it wasn't simply looks that make sets like Claws and Spines unusable with shields, it's because there are a limited number of nodes on the character nodels for attaching costume pieces like Claws, Spines and Shields and a node cannot have more than one piece attached.
where's the fun in that, when they can just complain about it!


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Posted

A way arround this that i could see would be having a shield fixed to the back of each arm, that way it wouldn't interfere with the weapons. although it would be quite stupid and not worth the time spent working it into the game. Claws and stone armour on the other hand...

Ps: on the subject of overpowering. AAO + rage = 90%+ damage bonus all the friggin time!!! plus the stackable mag 3 stuns, holds and the knockback that Super Strength has kinda adds to that...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonPower View Post
A way arround this that i could see would be having a shield fixed to the back of each arm, that way it wouldn't interfere with the weapons. although it would be quite stupid and not worth the time spent working it into the game. Claws and stone armour on the other hand...
*sigh* Again for the reading-impaired: character models/skeletons have "nodes" that allow various costume pieces to be attached. You cannot attach a piece where there is no node. There is one node on each arm/hand where a weapon/shield/other object can be attached. You cannot attach an object like a shield if there is no node available to attach it to in the first place, which is the case if the node is already being used for another weapon.
This is a game engine limitation, not an aesthetic limitation. Adding more nodes is obviously not a simple thing, and would probably require rewriting huge amounts of the game's basic animation code, and then dealing with rewriting all the secondary code since the game was launched that would no longer work properly... just a little bit of work. Who knows, maybe something like that will be in GR, but i have my doubts.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
*sigh* Again for the reading-impaired: character models/skeletons have "nodes" that allow various costume pieces to be attached. You cannot attach a piece where there is no node. There is one node on each arm/hand where a weapon/shield/other object can be attached. You cannot attach an object like a shield if there is no node available to attach it to in the first place, which is the case if the node is already being used for another weapon.
This is a game engine limitation, not an aesthetic limitation. Adding more nodes is obviously not a simple thing, and would probably require rewriting huge amounts of the game's basic animation code, and then dealing with rewriting all the secondary code since the game was launched that would no longer work properly... just a little bit of work. Who knows, maybe something like that will be in GR, but i have my doubts.
Well wait a second...

I think it could work, it'd just require new claws and shields. If you choose this power combination, maybe it'd lock the normal "claws" and "shields" options in the costume section and replace it with "gauntlets" or something. Basically, Gauntlets would be shields with claws sticking out on each arm OR clawed gloves that had shields on the back of the hands. You probably couldn't customize the individual claws/shield parts but the weapon as a whole. Incidentally, I don't think that'd work with Spines or Dual Blades.