Shields and Power "handedness"
They don't actively try to create clipping issues, and some of the animations look wrong, like ripper, wearing a shield.
@Mechaniker
Official Old Angry German Guy of CoV.
My Characters: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247787
Probably the same reason you can't use Dual Blades or Claws with a shield: it uses an attack stance that requires both hands. Those 2-hands sets require the 'nodes' on both hands, leaving no 'node' on the character to hold a shield.
Also, it's probably not accidental that Claws and Spines are terrific AoE sets that would synergize well -- perhaps too well -- with Shield's Against All Odds damage bonus. It would certainly be either almost overpowered or completely overpowered, depending on your point of view. That may or may not have occurred to the Devs, but I assume it's part of the reason.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Also, it's probably not accidental that Claws and Spines are terrific AoE sets that would synergize well -- perhaps too well -- with Shield's Against All Odds damage bonus. It would certainly be either almost overpowered or completely overpowered, depending on your point of view. That may or may not have occurred to the Devs, but I assume it's part of the reason.
|
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Electric Melee does not involve a weapon of any kind. Claws, Dual Blades, and Spines a use the dual weapon combat mode, which precludes the use of a shield. The culprits in the case of Spines are Barb Swipe and Ripper at least, as they make use of the left hand node that needs to be free for a shield.
The reason some powersets have animations that use both hands is because those animations do not involve a weapon being in the node on the left arm, leaving it free to have a shield there.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Is Electric melee a top-tier AoE set? Last I heard, someone was complaining that other than Lightning Rod, it's lackluster. Haven't used it myself.
|
Unless you're a Stalker that is, in which case it's because the devs hate you.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Is Claws a "top-tier" AoE set? Just saying it's unlikely the AoE effectiveness of the set has anything to do with it not being allowed with Shields. It's all to do with the animations being compatible, as others here are pointing out.
Unless you're a Stalker that is, in which case it's because the devs hate you. |
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
you know, its probably for the sole reason that Quills + AAO would be so friggen rediculous...
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Probably the same reason you can't use Dual Blades or Claws with a shield: it uses an attack stance that requires both hands. Those 2-hands sets require the 'nodes' on both hands, leaving no 'node' on the character to hold a shield.
|
But the OTHER melee sets that have an animation with the left hand DON'T require a "node"? If a "node" is simply a point on the character map where they anchor something (weapon), wouldn't they also need to anchor the center point for the animation for ANY power?
For example, Energy Melee...the "pink pom poms of death". Wouldn't it need a "node" centered on each fist, for the animation to show there? Sounds just a bit fishy to me.
Oh well, I ended up making the character as an Energy / Shield Brute. It goes just as well with his Magic origin, and I'm hoping with the Going Rogue expansion, I'll be able to have him walk the line between hero and villain...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the OTHER melee sets that have an animation with the left hand DON'T require a "node"? If a "node" is simply a point on the character map where they anchor something (weapon), wouldn't they also need to anchor the center point for the animation for ANY power? For example, Energy Melee...the "pink pom poms of death". Wouldn't it need a "node" centered on each fist, for the animation to show there? Sounds just a bit fishy to me. Oh well, I ended up making the character as an Energy / Shield Brute. It goes just as well with his Magic origin, and I'm hoping with the Going Rogue expansion, I'll be able to have him walk the line between hero and villain... |
The simplest way I can think to explain it is a "node" is something to attach an object to, as opposed to the Nrg Melee pompoms, which are power "effects" (for lack of a better word). (I believe this also explains the difference between Weapon Customization and Power Customization and why we were able to change weapons before changing powers)
Active 50s:
Zero Defex: DP/MM//Mace Blaster
Mutant X-7: Fire/MM//Mace Blaster
Running my Kin/EA gloriously
Come on I21!!!
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the OTHER melee sets that have an animation with the left hand DON'T require a "node"? If a "node" is simply a point on the character map where they anchor something (weapon), wouldn't they also need to anchor the center point for the animation for ANY power? For example, Energy Melee...the "pink pom poms of death". Wouldn't it need a "node" centered on each fist, for the animation to show there? Sounds just a bit fishy to me. Oh well, I ended up making the character as an Energy / Shield Brute. It goes just as well with his Magic origin, and I'm hoping with the Going Rogue expansion, I'll be able to have him walk the line between hero and villain... |
Like MutantX was saying: Energy melee (and similar) powers are animation FX. Weapons are like costume pieces now. Similarly to being only able to have Wings OR a cape because they both use the 'node' attached to the back; shields, axes, spines, swords, etc. are costume pieces that require a 'node' from the arm to attach to the character.
|
I guess I just have a mental block about this. I can easily understand coding a shield, axe, or sword as a costume piece would require a 'node' to attach to. But I can't understand why all powers that are obviously animation FX (Dark Melee, Electricity Melee, Energy Melee, Fire Melee, and Ice Melee), and those which somehow are less obviously animation FX (Claws and Spines) aren't treated the same way.
I was pretty sure that ALL the animation FX sets have AT LEAST one power in which the animation is either two-handed, or switches hands between strikes.
I might buy Claws as being specifically linked to each hand 'node', and being a "costume piece", since you COULD choose two different looks for right and left hand claws right from the main COSTUME tab...but that still leaves Spines as a standout. You can only select a look for your spines under the POWERS tab in the costume creator. To me, that would say they are coded more like the animation FX than the weapon skins.
I'm honestly not trying to be difficult about this, if it really is just a "numbers issue", which would create an unbalanced (overly-powerful) character, I fully understand. I'm not a min-maxer, and I'm not trying to figure out ways to get around the rules...I'm just one of those people who likes the rules to make some kind of sense to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess I just have a mental block about this. I can easily understand coding a shield, axe, or sword as a costume piece would require a 'node' to attach to. But I can't understand why all powers that are obviously animation FX (Dark Melee, Electricity Melee, Energy Melee, Fire Melee, and Ice Melee), and those which somehow are less obviously animation FX (Claws and Spines) aren't treated the same way. I was pretty sure that ALL the animation FX sets have AT LEAST one power in which the animation is either two-handed, or switches hands between strikes. I might buy Claws as being specifically linked to each hand 'node', and being a "costume piece", since you COULD choose two different looks for right and left hand claws right from the main COSTUME tab...but that still leaves Spines as a standout. You can only select a look for your spines under the POWERS tab in the costume creator. To me, that would say they are coded more like the animation FX than the weapon skins. I'm honestly not trying to be difficult about this, if it really is just a "numbers issue", which would create an unbalanced (overly-powerful) character, I fully understand. I'm not a min-maxer, and I'm not trying to figure out ways to get around the rules...I'm just one of those people who likes the rules to make some kind of sense to me. |
There are only 3 powers in Spines that use the left hand, but since those 3 powers exist they cannot remove the weapon from the node on the left hand.
Every two handed animation was tweaked to allow it to be used with a shield. Really look at Bonesmasher sometime with a shield. You'll notice that the arms are seperated when they animate. On non-shield sets the hands are linked during animation.
Hurl uses just one hand, probably due to the left hand node being required for the power.
There are a lot of things that were adjusted to allow for shields, but Katana, Spines, Claws, and Dual Blades were unadjustable by their very nature.
I'll try to find the post from BaBs where he breaks down the combat stances.
As far as I'm aware, Spines and Thorns (the dominator set) are the only sets that are coded with both power effects and weapon skins. That's why they were unadjustable until they had the ability to adjust both at once. The spines sticking out of your body are a weapon skin, they had the ability to change those when weapon customization was released. However, all the projectiles are a power effect, if you changed just the weapon skin, the projectiles would still be the original spines. That's why we had to wait to customize them.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Ehh id go for a funny looking toon just have a claws/sheild scrapper
Besides, Energy Transfer looks so ridiculous on a sheilder, we should at least be able to have eviscerate
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
i'd suggest reading the thread again. It was explained several times that it wasn't simply looks that make sets like Claws and Spines unusable with shields, it's because there are a limited number of nodes on the character nodels for attaching costume pieces like Claws, Spines and Shields and a node cannot have more than one piece attached.
|
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
A way arround this that i could see would be having a shield fixed to the back of each arm, that way it wouldn't interfere with the weapons. although it would be quite stupid and not worth the time spent working it into the game. Claws and stone armour on the other hand...
Ps: on the subject of overpowering. AAO + rage = 90%+ damage bonus all the friggin time!!! plus the stackable mag 3 stuns, holds and the knockback that Super Strength has kinda adds to that...
A way arround this that i could see would be having a shield fixed to the back of each arm, that way it wouldn't interfere with the weapons. although it would be quite stupid and not worth the time spent working it into the game. Claws and stone armour on the other hand...
|
This is a game engine limitation, not an aesthetic limitation. Adding more nodes is obviously not a simple thing, and would probably require rewriting huge amounts of the game's basic animation code, and then dealing with rewriting all the secondary code since the game was launched that would no longer work properly... just a little bit of work. Who knows, maybe something like that will be in GR, but i have my doubts.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
*sigh* Again for the reading-impaired: character models/skeletons have "nodes" that allow various costume pieces to be attached. You cannot attach a piece where there is no node. There is one node on each arm/hand where a weapon/shield/other object can be attached. You cannot attach an object like a shield if there is no node available to attach it to in the first place, which is the case if the node is already being used for another weapon.
This is a game engine limitation, not an aesthetic limitation. Adding more nodes is obviously not a simple thing, and would probably require rewriting huge amounts of the game's basic animation code, and then dealing with rewriting all the secondary code since the game was launched that would no longer work properly... just a little bit of work. Who knows, maybe something like that will be in GR, but i have my doubts. |
I think it could work, it'd just require new claws and shields. If you choose this power combination, maybe it'd lock the normal "claws" and "shields" options in the costume section and replace it with "gauntlets" or something. Basically, Gauntlets would be shields with claws sticking out on each arm OR clawed gloves that had shields on the back of the hands. You probably couldn't customize the individual claws/shield parts but the weapon as a whole. Incidentally, I don't think that'd work with Spines or Dual Blades.
Recently, I had an idea for a character concept I found interesting, and went to see if I could create it. My character concept called for him to carry a shield while using spines. Unfortunately, I know Spines are not available to a Tanker (which is what I really wanted him to be), but I thought that creating him as a Scrapper wouldn't be too bad. Sadly, I learned that you cannot select both Spines and Shields.
Since the shields animate as attached to the left forearm, I can understand the "greying out" of an attack powerset, like katana - the thought being that you can't effectively use a weapon in the same hand. But other than Battle Axe and War Mace, every other melee powerset has at least one attack that utilizes both hands. (Honestly, even those two have animations that include the left hand - Taunt, if nothing else.)
This leads me to my question. What is the justification for not allowing a character to use Shields and Spines at the same time? Is there some actual REASON for it, animation-wise (and please don't say "clipping issues," as there are a MILLION clipping problems that ARE allowed), or is it that there is some overlap of the powersets that would make a character using both powersets to be overly-powerful?
I just hate to lose an interesting character concept, for no good reason.