To Boldly Go....
I think Des and konshu really hit upon the major points on why there's problems with the way stories are presented in this game and why players have issues with the content. It also presents a catch 22 for people who are interested in the story in team based content. It's easier to get the storyline on your own but you can't solo it. Teams absolutly won't stop so you'll do the content but have no clue what's going on. You shouldn't have to go to a side site to get the info and it simply doesn't have the same feel if you do it after the fact as opposed to doing it during the mission. I feel teaming with people to be incredibly frustrating sometimes when I don't have the star due to this.
Nericus;
You can just drop off the island and warp right to Quarterfield.
Zamuel:
And, frankly, the story arc missions are a lot more fun then police band. You have more varied objectives, ambushes, patrols, possible EB's and AV's, etc.
And that's another; I wish they'd go through and promote a lot of the named bosses to EB/AV in the old arcs. And freaking promote the Archmages in Augustine already.
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
80% of the time the door placement is entirely arbitrary, adding nothing to the story.
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It's less of a need for a promotion in their strength and more of a need for making them more unique. Mission Architect has shown there's a ton of things can be done to freshen up an enemy by simply recoloring them.
That's what bugged me about the otherwise well done remake of the hero cape mission. They could have easily designated an official door for the memorial but they didn't. I'm also noticing that we've got a number of unique buildings all over the place without appropriate instance maps. Bowling alleys, El Super Mexicano, Hotel Geneva, even hospitals that aren't the Mother Mayhem Asylum.
It's less of a need for a promotion in their strength and more of a need for making them more unique. Mission Architect has shown there's a ton of things can be done to freshen up an enemy by simply recoloring them. |
I would definitely like to see more map types, though, and more layouts. Even just a few more refreshes things nicely... villainside can often feel fresh to me just because it often uses tilesets I'm not REALLY familiar with, like heroside.
And I agree with the unique enemies thing... we need more unique encounters like Frostfire and Atta with those early level mobs that you take on.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Des, I agree with you, but I don't entirely agree with you.
Yes, as I've said many times elsewhere, the mechanism of physically greeting contacts doesn't make much sense, game-wise. If it was up to me, I'd have all contact interaction occurring over cellphone, period. There simply isn't much point to having to physically visit a contact, and no reason for contacts to have a stationary position in a zone.
The game tries to account for this mechanic by saying the cellphone numbers are only given out to friends, but this is ridiculous. Which is more secure: giving a superpowered person a cellphone number (which can be a public number, or a number dropped or changed at will), or letting that superpowered someone visit you in person? Obviously, it should be the reverse of the current situation; if you were a contact, having a superpowered stranger visit you would be less secure. So the player should get the cellphone first, when the contact has no idea who you are. Perhaps you'd even deal with an assistant, and not the actual person. Only after you'd done a few deeds to prove yourself and elevate your status would you be likely to meet your contact in person. In fact, visiting your contact in person at the end of an arc could be a way of rationalizing the arc bonus: you get congrats in person from your contact on a job well done, and then you get a reward.
Also, as I've posted many times in other threads, players should not be forced into taking the various errand missions that pop up at the low levels. They should all be optional. The ability to give optional missions has been in the game since the beginning; it's hard to think of a more legitimate reason for its use than the errand to the Hero Corps Analyst (in another zone!) or to a PvP liaison. As for referral to another contact, we also have a built-in way of handling that which has been around since the beginning. Why send players all the way to The Hollows when you could just open the usual "you have a new contact" window?
Where I disagree is that I don't consider making these changes to be a revamp. I consider these to be errors that should be fixed. It should take a dev about a day to fix these problems in all the arcs, blueside and redside. Perhaps two days if there are a lot of interruptions.
Naturally, any content revamp should automatically fix these errors, but when people are asking for a revamp, I think they're asking for things like a reworking of the Cavern of Transcendence trial, the Posi TF, and stuff like that.
I think they're going to start designating doors with GR, but I would think they could do that now, as the Cimerora TF has missions that always go to the same door... same with missions for the story arcs there. I don't know if that's more of their "we're not reworking old content" mantra, or what. It should be done, though.
( ... ) And I agree with the unique enemies thing... we need more unique encounters like Frostfire and Atta with those early level mobs that you take on. |
However, in the early days the devs assumed players would find it more fun if the doors were randomized, so they created a routine to randomize the doors. They also used to randomize the order of missions in an arc, but that practice has been somewhat abandoned.
Unique bosses, in my opinion, have always been needed. I just did an arc the other day, the "Crown of Glory," and it featured about a dozen named but otherwise identical Warrior bosses. My preference would be to have each boss have a unique look - and perhaps unique powers - as often as practical.
In my AE arcs, I customize all of my named bosses as a matter of course. It's normally not that big of a deal.
That's what bugged me about the otherwise well done remake of the hero cape mission. They could have easily designated an official door for the memorial but they didn't.
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The devs have said that there's difficulty in matching up transition points to zone doors. So if a door has not been already established as a transition point, they don't extend themselves to enable a new one. They will select an existing door or put it on random, and a random setting is easier as they don't have to look up the address of a specific door.
When the devs talk about having difficulties with old coding and old methods, I think this is one of those things.
Unique bosses, in my opinion, have always been needed. I just did an arc the other day, the "Crown of Glory," and it featured about a dozen named but otherwise identical Warrior bosses. My preference would be to have each boss have a unique look - and perhaps unique powers - as often as practical.
In my AE arcs, I customize all of my named bosses as a matter of course. It's normally not that big of a deal. |
At the same time, it's not always needed. I liked the Crown of Glory arc, and the dialogue text did a lot for me to differentiate those. I also soloed it on my DM/WP Scrapper, so I was rather hard pressed not to get killed in two hits during all those fights. I can't recall if the final boss for that one had a slightly different look or not. There, I do want more than a specific name and dialogue. It's kind of a balance between always having a unique look and not.
On another angle brought up earlier, I'm trying to get in to the Star Trek beta, as I figure that's the only I'll be able to check it out for free. Reading up and watching videos, the space combat does sound more interesting than what I had first seen- there's a lot of customization options, etc. How much those really affect things remains to be seen, of course, but it's better than I thought. I do cringe at some of the videos and setup for the ships... depending on the ship, you can tank more, do more DPS, do more support, etc. Using MMO terms like that... especially for huge ships in the Trek universe just... rubs me the wrong way. They would have been better off just to talk about the ship capabilities to me, as this does kind of break the Trek feel to think "I'm in a ship like the Enterprise, so I can tank for my team."
They don't have much there for the away missions, which worry me as well. We'll see, I guess.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Also, as I've posted many times in other threads, players should not be forced into taking the various errand missions that pop up at the low levels. They should all be optional. The ability to give optional missions has been in the game since the beginning; it's hard to think of a more legitimate reason for its use than the errand to the Hero Corps Analyst (in another zone!) or to a PvP liaison. As for referral to another contact, we also have a built-in way of handling that which has been around since the beginning. Why send players all the way to The Hollows when you could just open the usual "you have a new contact" window? |
Have you heard about the Hollows, Character? Ever since the Trolls moved into Eastgate, the Paragon PD has been fighting a losing battle against them. If you're willing, I'd like you to go talk to Lt. David Wincott of the Trolls Task Force. He could really use your help in reclaiming the Hollows. Of course, we can really use your help here, too. Wherever you'd like to lend a hand, you'll be welcome. Mission Acceptance The Trolls are the worse problem in the Hollows, but they aren't the only one. I'll let Lt. Wincott fill you in. |
Yes, the intro arcs are annoying for low level characters. Yes, they take a whole 5 minutes. I think they bring a bit more value in than what they cost in terms of a low level of annoyance. As previously quoted, you have an initial idea for the Hollows that you'll be facing Trolls, and you are for a decent chunk of the time (others being Outcasts, CoT, and the Igenous). The same kind of assistance can be said for the intro to Striga (Ooh look, Council). Now, croatoa, not so much, and that could be improved on.
Finally, I think we need at least one more intro mission that's sorely missing, and that's the Shard. If they ever redo the Shard into a proper zone/zones and not "farm kora fruit 50 billion times", I think an intro mission is needed, if only to tell folks that there's a frelling Shadow Shard out there.
edit: And just so a) i'm not entirely negative, and b) i'm not entirely way off base:
Sorry to see you go, Fista. Hope to see you flying around out there. Once servers are discussed, maybe should think of a server for Victory folks to congregate to. I'd rather stick to the ship captains I know than the ones I don't.
@Death Conqueror
-Goal for 2011: Survive, stay alive, and continue to thrive.
After running through a Shard TF with Voo last summer, I decided I really should try to check out the story arcs there. Because yeah... I just assumed that they were there and I had never bothered.
I guess I had never bothered with Grey Pilgrim when it started out both because of the travel issues, and because there isn't an story arcs. That's just... bad, to me. It's a fun and unique zone, and they've made it less and less of an issue to travel there, too. I'd like to see them go back there almost as much as Boomtown, DA, and some more arcs redside.
As for the other stuff, I knew most of what Konshu said, and that's from playing... I rarely read up on anything on the wiki. That's because I solo and read the text and *gasp* read it.... I'll even do this while on a team. I didn't really know that the sea monster in Striga is a Coralax, though. Is that detailed somewhere, or is that just a guess? If it is, they really should update that, too. Wouldn't be that hard to replace the box with a hostage Coralax... one of us could do that with AE in about 2 seconds.
I actually like CoX because it does have a strong storyline for a lot of its stuff. I enjoy the stories and read them. When I played WoW, I liked the environment, but I didn't get a storyline feel for too much of it. The most involved thing I really did was getting a special Warmace for my Paladin, and that was only entertwined because a smith told me to go to a bunch of places. It sounds like they have more storyline with newer stuff, but I feel like CoX has the stronger storylines, personally. May be aesthetics there, but not entirely, I think.
DC, from what I've read, isn't STO going to be like CO? So they're going to have server shards... everyone is in the same spot, but they'll get moved to different shards depending on load, rather than having entirely different zones.
I'll have to shout out if I get into the Open Beta. I would like to check it out with people I know as well. May all be moot as I doubt I'll have much money for it, but we'll see.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Leader of Legion of Valor/Fallen Legion (Victory server)
http://legionofvalor.guildportal.com / http://fallenlegion.guildportal.com
StainedGlassScarlet - L50 Spines/Inv Scrapper | Badges: 1,396
Avatar detail taken from full-size piece by Douglas Shuler here
I'm going to have to butt in here and say 'no'. You argue in a previous post that you have problems with the way the story is introduced and talked about ingame, and yet you also want to get rid of the intro missions? Let me quote you the intro text for the mission to Wincott in the Hollows:
(...) Yes, there is a clue given as well; it's the background to Eastgate, all about the Hollowing, etc. However, even just from this, you have an idea that the Hollows are called Eastgate. I use this example here b/c you mentioned that players don't know this. |
Also, my complaint is about being sent to The Hollows just to turn down the arc. Can't I just decline it from where I am in Kings Row?
Finally, I just used Eastgate as an example. There's lots of things in the backstory that many players don't know.
As for the other stuff, I knew most of what Konshu said, and that's from playing... I rarely read up on anything on the wiki. That's because I solo and read the text and *gasp* read it.... I'll even do this while on a team. I didn't really know that the sea monster in Striga is a Coralax, though. Is that detailed somewhere, or is that just a guess? If it is, they really should update that, too. Wouldn't be that hard to replace the box with a hostage Coralax... one of us could do that with AE in about 2 seconds.
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However, I have to say that since the body is never identified by name as a Coralax, and was never shown, I can't say definitively that it was a Coralax. Likewise, I cannot say the strange skull found in The Hollows was definitely Coralax either. These are educated guesses.
Remember, though, when these missions and clues were written, the Coralax did not exist in the game. They were just in the mysterious "game bible."
Here are the in-game references to what I believe are the Coralax.
In Wincott's "2nd Outcast base" mish, there are the following two clues:
Objective: You found a coral bracelet. Coral bracelet You recovered this bracelet from an Outcasts' hideout. When you touch the beads, your finger begins to bleed. Objective: You found a strange skull. Strange skull You recovered this skull from an Outcasts' hideout. It is highly similar to a human skull, but the bones are much thinner and more fragile. |
Other clues relate to the Seaview Project. There is a plaque in The Hollows relating to Seaview:
This building once housed the lab of Dr. Calvin Stewart, who pioneered Eastgate Bay's Seaview project. Since the Hollowing, Dr. Stewart has been forced to abandon the lab, and communication with the Seaview project has been erratic. Very little is known by the public about the scientists' activities in Eastgate Bay. |
"Seems some researchers over in Eastgate Bay just pulled into port. Say they were attacked by some sort of "fish monsters", and they barely escaped with their lives! They even say they've got one of the creatures on ice down in their hold." |
Mission Complete: You recovered the specimen and stopped the attack. The scientist's find The contents of this crate can only be described as bizarre. The creature in stasis within is definitely fish-like, but easily the size of a man. It's long, powerful arms look capable of ripping a boat to shreds. |
"I just want to go back to the university! Back to studying coral!" "We nearly lost our lives for our research! And these creeps want to steal it?" "You wouldn't believe me if I told you about it!" |
Here's a quote from the Paragon Times in relation to Lusca:
The Times contacted the Seaview Oceanographic Research Institute for further information. Dr. Matthew Cooper, a noted authority on cephalopods, which include octopi and squids, was dismayed by the official statement. "This was no shipping accident. This photo...what you have here appears to be a member of the genus Enteroctopus--a giant octopus. They've been known to grow up to thirty or forty feet, but this one is...it's some kind of super anomaly and it's way off its usual south Atlantic feeding grounds." When asked why it was here in Independence Port, Dr. Cooper could only speculate, "Something drove it here. Competition. Disruption of its normal environment. If this is truly a massive Enteroctopus, then we have a problem. It's extremely intelligent and highly carnivorous. It has to eat at least 2 percent of its body weight every day." |
For the past 10 years the mystery surrounding the Moraine's fate has been Professor Calvin Stewart's personal and professional focus. Heading the Seaview Oceanographic Research Institute's "Project Moraine Recovery" team, Prof. Stewart has searched literally thousands of square miles of open water. "I know she has to be out there," Prof. Stewart said in a Times interview early in 2003. "With better sonar and advancements in remotely operated vehicles (ROVs), it's a question of when--not if--we find her." This question of "when" was answered on November 24, 2004. Prof. Stewart, aboard the advanced research vessel Paragon City Star, was making on one last sweep of an area some 12 miles NNW of Striga Isle. It was near this area that a fishing vessel had made the last reported sighting of the Moraine on that fateful December night. "We were actually on our way back in and this was to be our last attempt for the year," Prof. Stewart said, "when the ship's sonar pinged something large and metallic on the seafloor 168 feet below." Soon the remote cameras began revealing the broad rise of a barnacle encrusted and rusting hull. "She was lying on her starboard side. Intact. I knew right away. It was the Moraine." Preliminary ROV inspection confirmed the wreck's identity, but an initial dive revealed no further information as to the cause of her sinking. Before a full search could be made, an early winter storm forced Prof. Stewart and his team to withdraw from the area. "We have the exact GPS coordinates and the location is now marked," Prof. Stewart said. "We'll be back in the spring for a full examination of the wreckage and the surrounding area. She's been found, now maybe we can get to some answers. |
So what we appear to have here is a backstory in which a group of scientists in Eastgate are possibly pursuing several different angles of research, one of which was the search for the wreck of the Moraine.
Another angle was probably researching the health of coral beds off the coast of Eastgate.
One of the strange details of Eastgate is the desalinization plant. It is a physical feature of the zone, and it has its own plaque. Because of this, I assume the desalinization plant has a purpose in the backstory.
The plaque's clue reads:
This water treatment facility used to desalinate the water from Eastgate bay for use by Paragon City citizens. In the wake of the Hollowing, the facility became unusable, creating a serious water crisis for post-war Paragon City. |
Lusca was probably an early conception of the leviathans associated with the Coralax.
The Seaview scientists were probably attacked by Coralax while returning to the wreck of the Moraine.
I felt fairly certain about all this speculation back in 2006, but when War Witch did her mini-revamp of The Hollows and added the Coralax as a zone encounter, it seemed like a confirmation to me.
What do you think?
I miss the Paragon Times, even though I was inevitably turned down for an exclusive interview way back when. And that was even *after* I agreed to do the nude photo shoot and supplied some examples.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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I miss the Paragon Times, even though I was inevitably turned down for an exclusive interview way back when. And that was even *after* I agreed to do the nude photo shoot and supplied some examples.
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Edit: ...at least by Tuesday. I'm scared.
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Article about STO on that Beckett MMO site. I've been gaining more interest as I read about STO, but this bit has kind of scared me off.
"Finally, Borg space is the end game, which will take teams of players to defeat. 'Bridge officers just wont cut it, Craig said. This is raid content.'"
If it's optional like TFs are in CoX, I'm good (and not requiring that you have a consistent group of people to play with at all times). If this means STO is going to be raid-heavy like WoW... there is no way I'm touching this. That'd be a shame, too, as it sounds interesting. But WoW was kind of fun, until I realized how much raiding was needed at the end. That made it work and not fun. Same thing here, potentially.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Depends on the size of the raids. If the raids are equivalent of task forces, I don't mind. Plus large space battles rock.
:0
One nice thing about ST:O; it's setup like CO and Guild Wars. Only one server.
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
I finally logged in to the STO Beta and rolled my first toon. I'd love it if the game were just space combat... running around on the ground and onboard ships with phasers that feel less effective than 9mm pistols isn't doing it for me.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
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"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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I also took the plunge and bought STO last night, and stayed up WAY too late playing it. If the tutorial and first mission afterward is any indication, I'm really going to enjoy the game.
I'm willing to give it a month or two and see how it shapes up.
Leader of Legion of Valor/Fallen Legion (Victory server)
http://legionofvalor.guildportal.com / http://fallenlegion.guildportal.com
StainedGlassScarlet - L50 Spines/Inv Scrapper | Badges: 1,396
Avatar detail taken from full-size piece by Douglas Shuler here
I finally logged in to the STO Beta and rolled my first toon. I'd love it if the game were just space combat... running around on the ground and onboard ships with phasers that feel less effective than 9mm pistols isn't doing it for me.
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From what I've seen, I can understand the ground combat feeling you have, MG. Space combat looks and sounds interesting and fairly well developed. Ground combat looked meh, and the whole "Healer/Tanker/DPS" feels a little ramrodded in with the ground stuff (I read about aura heals, and I was wondering what tech that was from Star Trek, heh). I can ignore it for the space stuff and put it in terms of the ships being flown, at least.
We're probably a little spoiled for ground combat, though. City of Heroes is pretty fun and dynamic in that regard.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
GP (and others):
http://www.mmorpg.com/giveaways.cfm?offer=135&val=1
__________________
Currently listening to Cowboy Bebop O.S.T. Future Blues by Yoko Kanno
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
Steadily ticking down... 3175 when I started my process, 3125 as of this post. Thanks for the heads up, Ham. Love that mmorpg.com had these, and Cryptic wouldn't toss them out for someone that asked for one. Whatever.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Where do you think mmorg GOT these? :0
Eh. Assuming it's part of their promotion/marketing agreements. They give X no. of keys to sites like that in exchange for them promoting the game.
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
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