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Sorry if I misunderstood or misrepresented your statement. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Des, you kind of misread what I said. I don't know how much your enhancements get reduced when you exemp, but it is a sizable chunk. As I said, exemping with more slots and enhancements slotted is always a good idea.
My point was merely that even if the Devs removed TOs and DOs, our powers at those earlier levels would still be weaker than in the SO range, making a drop of the TO and DO enhancements not do very much.. I'd probably be into just going to DOs up until the SO range, and adjust influence costs/drops so they could be affordable at early levels. TOs do give the idea that enhancement slotting isn't a good idea, which isn't a good thing. |
I put forth that TOs are completely useless. The only argument that could be entered for the continued existence of DOs is influence/infamy costs to a new player, which I feel remains a weak argument. You reach DO/IO levels so quickly that DOs simply aren't worth the investment. From an influence/infamy management point of view, a new player is better off waiting until level 17 and slotting lvl 20 IOs,
You brought up exemplaring which IMHO has no bearing on the issue.
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Just to keep clarifying, exemplaring DOES have bearing on the issue, as the devs have put enhancement caps on those early levels. I don't know what those caps are (as I don't keep those numbers in my head and have no desire to look them up right now), but they are below SO levels. So no matter what, you are weaker at those levels.
It has bearing, because it makes the removal of TOs and DOs less worthwhile than some of you are suggesting. You are never going to have SO levels of enhancement below level 20 or so, unless you can convince the Devs to remove those caps... and good luck with that if you really want to.
So influence levels are not the only reason to keep the system as is. The system is bigger than just the type of enhancement, given the caps. Basically, TOs and DOs are a visible way for players to see themselves growing stronger as they level. Experienced players may not care as much about this, but you still want the game to be understandable from the ground up... not to mention make you feel stronger as you level. If you take them away, it can make it more confusing.
At any rate, I don't love TOs or anything like that, I'm just saying there's a rhyme and a reason to the current system, and I don't see the devs removing it completely. You could make the argument that we should move to a DO/SO system, which works for me, but I don't see an SO system happening.
If anything, the current system is better because you can do what you want with it. You do have multiple, viable options, which is a good thing.
Meh, not that big a deal. Anyway, on a completely unrelated note... Des, what did you not like about the higher levels in Aion? I was a little worried about the game's emphasis on PvP, but I know you seemed to like the game at start- what changed?
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
We'll go around in circles on this issue. I was trying to avoid a whole numbers discussion. I think if you started to plug in actualy values, you'd see why I say exemplaring is not a factor in this issue. Exemplar affect on Enhancements| Just to keep clarifying, exemplaring DOES have bearing on the issue, as the devs have put enhancement caps on those early levels. I don't know what those caps are (as I don't keep those numbers in my head and have no desire to look them up right now), but they are below SO levels. So no matter what, you are weaker at those levels. |
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| Meh, not that big a deal. Anyway, on a completely unrelated note... Des, what did you not like about the higher levels in Aion? I was a little worried about the game's emphasis on PvP, but I know you seemed to like the game at start- what changed? |
In Aion, after level 40, your choices are grind your way to 50 or get a group and quest your way through Elites. I HATE grinding. Add insult to injury, Aion groups MUST consist of a cleric, a templar, 2 rangers or sorcerers. In 6 member groups (the max) assassins, gladiators(my class), chanters, and spiritmasters round out the pity spots. We all remember the days when folks INSISTED we had a Tanker and Healer in CoH, well that's the reality of Aion.
It's one thing to have areas of 'forced teaming', it's another to ONLY have areas of 'forced teaming.' I've got a massive list of quests I can't complete on my own. Legion members have to dredge the areas over and over and over again to help members complete their quests. It's great that they're willing to do that, but some days I don't want to bother anyone. That just took all the fun out of it for me.
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I've been one of those asking for it since 2005, but I have my doubts about the new 1-20.|
Originally Posted by Satanic_Hamster
New content for levels 1-20?
Hells yeahs, that's just what everyone has been demanding for YEARS. |
First, because despite what people say, it sounds like it pretty much IS a goatee CoH. That automatically turns me off.
Second, because they really need to revise their old material. That's what I want to play, not another round of "fresh" incompletely told stories.
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1-20 or 1-30 has always been my favorite range of play. Typically, I play on blueside right up to 30, then I start running out of gas and maybe barely make it through Numina and ITF. Then that's pretty much it for that toon.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I got a little tired of it when I started a ton of alts at the same time and ran through the content too many times at once. But it can be pretty fun... I still get thrills out of entering Atlas Park for the first time and hearing that music. Good stuff. The game also plays differently then (with pros and cons to that, of course), which is a nice change of pace from later levels.
I'm still a little annoyed that they added even more xp gain to the first 20 levels. They can be fun, and now you really rush past them. And the issues people could have with that level range could have been solved a lot more interestingly. |
I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one annoyed by the decision by the devs to speed up passage through the lower levels as opposed to adding more new low level content, which would have been the proper solution.
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If they would let me at the code, I'd make all contacts give you the cellphone number when they are first introduced. I see ZERO value in making players run over to some location to click and get their mission. It's pointless churn.|
Originally Posted by Satanic_Hamster
I'd have them just give it right off, especially for the pre-level 20 contacts. You have hordes of them in CoH in the lower levels and unlike CoV, they are chock full of hunt missions and doors that aren't usually in the same zone. At least CoV contacts keeps you in the zone of the contact, generally. No "Oh, you're level 3? Do a door mission in the *** end of KR" from a contact in Atlas or a "You have a choice of defeat 10 level 12 CoT in Perez or defeat 10 level 12 CoT in Perez" when you're level five.
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I would also remove all the silly hunt missions - from the lower arcs in particular. I would instead give the Security Chiefs hunt missions, and make them open contacts, so those who are actually looking for hunts can get a steady diet of them.
As for the errands you get sent on (to PvP zones, analyst, etc.), I'd make each one of those optional. So you can "go see Wincott in The Hollows" OR do a mission. Also, if you did "go see Wincott," you'd be able to cellphone the contact directly afterward, as opposed to being forced to trot all the way back. It is always annoying, for instance, to be sent to the Bloody Bay Liason, and then be sent to either Jim Temblor or Seer Marino ... basically retracing your steps, since you can't call at that point.
I would expect changing the cellphone policy and making errands optional to take about a day. Passing the hunts to the Security Chiefs in an orderly manner might take a couple of days, depending on how much alteration you decide to do.
All told, I don't see anything there that has to take a dev longer than a few days, tops.
It's dev policy, not a lack of time or personnel, that keeps these things from being done.
One of my worries about GR is that they haven't really learned from their mistakes. They talk about the whole "a place for everything" when they missed the perfect chance to do so with the new cape mission. Atlas's City Hall DOES have a clickable door that would have made perfect sense for putting a mission that's "right down the hall".
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Now that they've got several new hires it sort of feels like this. All of the players with non-animation interests got mad at the Walk animation's release but not enough people dwelled on something with it. BAB stated that he didn't directly work on it all at once and rather he slowly worked on it over time. The issue is, how come several other things seemingly haven't been handled the same way? People may respect that the Cathedral of Pain may take a ton of work how come we can't get ugly Arachnos shipping crate #5 for our base? It would seem like making new base items out of preexisting scenery would be easy but hasn't happened. (then again, it seems like bases no longer have a dev anyways) Or stuff with zones. Dark Astoria doesn't need a structural/geography revamp, just add a dedicated contact and/or TF.| It's dev policy, not a lack of time or personnel, that keeps these things from being done. |
It's like the devs are putting all their eggs in one basket and ignoring some of the hens in another barn.
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Do you mean the game engine actually requires this team makeup, or these classes are required by the players?|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Add insult to injury, Aion groups MUST consist of a cleric, a templar, 2 rangers or sorcerers.
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Either way, sounds like very poor design for the late-game content in Aion. A mission full of AVs? Madness! /em kicks angel into big pit
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Zam, unless the devs announce what they're working on from one moment to the next, we can't really say much about how they're allocating their time. As for the walk thing, that's a pretty minimal thing that he could work on in his spare time. We don't know about the productivity of other people in the dev team... for all we know, BAB felt like working a little overtime to get it done because some people would like it, or got done on some projects sooner than they anticipated. I'm not going to hold the devs accountable for how they spend every minute of their day, and I do find it a little crazy how some people are grumping so much about the Walk animation being added.
I do agree that GR really needs to set a bar, however... we haven't been getting a lot of things for awhile now (like new missions, etc.), so GR really has to deliver on those. So that IS an expectation we can have. I think the devs are expecting a lot from it too... it's a lot of work.
If it doesn't give us a lot of things, people do have a right to grump. I've been somewhat okay with not having as much "content" in the past year because other things were in the works, but if I don't see much, I won't be happy. We have a bunch of new developers, and still not too much to show for it that WE can see. Which does make a difference.
The marketing for GR does confuse me quite a bit, though. I've seen previews on a few sites, but they really haven't done anything official here other than announce it. A bit of info here and there would go a long way towards keeping up interest in the future and present of this game.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Do you mean the game engine actually requires this team makeup, or these classes are required by the players?
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The players. The game will allow you to assemble at team with any class make up you wish. You just won't accomplish much. Bare in mind, I'm referring to Elite areas only. Everything else can be accomplished by any team make up.
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Some players are complaining about how some of the new difficulty settings seem to be spawning more bosses than before, and how that's not too much fun while soloing.
I do like fighting AVs, but too much in one go is not very fun (I find some of the level 40 and above story arcs to have a few too many archvillains... I kind of prefer the ones that save the AV for the end, to keep things more unique, and less of a "team required," even though I've soloed through most of that stuff with Tanks, Scrappers, and Blasters).
So yeah... Aion sounds not very fun because of that. Big, very hard targets should be reserved for unique situations, I would say. It almost sounds like they need to create an Elite Boss category... unless they have it already.
Looking at other games, STO's set up for missions sounds interesting, but I still don't think the gameplay itself looks strong enough. I think I'd always be left wanting more tactical ability from the game, when it's set up more like an MMO than a strategy game.
Star Wars is looking interesting for its focus on story (I think the CoX devs could/should put some of that focus on revamping our game... same thing for STO... picking up missions if we wanted while patrolling the city would be a cool feature), though it is making me wonder how the social/MMO portion is going to work. Some of the attack animations you can see in videos seem a little too... bland? Might not be the right word, as they are leaping around, etc., but the animations look and feel a lot like the animations from the first KOTOR. Which weren't bad for then, but I rather want more from this game.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
My feeling on that: they can turn bosses off, then. Easy fix. They can also start a team too (but many are too lazy or selfish to do so).|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Some players are complaining about how some of the new difficulty settings seem to be spawning more bosses than before, and how that's not too much fun while soloing.
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Someone will complain about any/all changes made to the game, no matter how universally well-received or regarded; nothing's ever going to change that sad fact...
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I don't know how accurate it is, but I've heard that Away Teams ("teams") are limited to only 5 total members. Coming from an environment like CoX where 8 is the maximum (and many of us would love to see that somehow expanded, I think), that's going to be an interesting experience.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Looking at other games, STO's set up for missions sounds interesting, but I still don't think the gameplay itself looks strong enough. I think I'd always be left wanting more tactical ability from the game, when it's set up more like an MMO than a strategy game.
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Quote:
As far as content goes, I'd be surprised if GR is giving us more than 4 small zones and 18 new arcs.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I do agree that GR really needs to set a bar, however... we haven't been getting a lot of things for awhile now (like new missions, etc.), so GR really has to deliver on those. So that IS an expectation we can have. I think the devs are expecting a lot from it too... it's a lot of work.
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All I've heard on the issue is that the devs are "looking into it." I do think it's something they should try to fix, too, as it is a bit lame to have a mission where almost every spawn seems to have a boss in it. I do rather wonder if they have tweaked something, as it seems to be less of a problem than it was just after the new difficulty settings were added (I had missions on my AR/En Blaster where he was facing a boss or two in about 85% of the mobs).|
Originally Posted by Eric Nelson
My feeling on that: they can turn bosses off, then. Easy fix. They can also start a team too (but many are too lazy or selfish to do so).
Someone will complain about any/all changes made to the game, no matter how universally well-received or regarded; nothing's ever going to change that sad fact... |
Anyway, saying you can just turn bosses off doesn't quite cut it for that problem, as I like fighting bosses... just not every mob when I'm solo, or even every other mob. It gets over the top, which isn't good game design. Other things, I'll definitely say don't bellyache about it, but I'm glad it's at least being looked at, if not slightly fixed already.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I wouldn't.|
Originally Posted by konshu
As far as content goes, I'd be surprised if GR is giving us more than 4 small zones and 18 new arcs.
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The last time they went silent like this, it was because architect was too big and had to split an issue into 2. They probably won't do that.
We wanted custom bosses in missions, and we got entire groups we could customize. However you feel about the exploitation, you can not argue that we didn't get a much better product than we asked for.
I have a feeling they are aiming very high.
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I agree completely. I think they're trying to knock everyone's socks off with GR, and if they get near what they want to, they damn near may do that.|
Originally Posted by CaptainMoodswing
I wouldn't.
The last time they went silent like this, it was because architect was too big and had to split an issue into 2. They probably won't do that. We wanted custom bosses in missions, and we got entire groups we could customize. However you feel about the exploitation, you can not argue that we didn't get a much better product than we asked for. I have a feeling they are aiming very high. |
Of course, if anyone's already decided to be disappointed with it no matter what, there's just nothing much that can be said. I'm going to hope for the best and remain positive.
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GR should have as much content as CoV did at launch (not including all the new ATs and sets). Anything significantly less is unacceptable.
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Originally Posted by konshu
As far as content goes, I'd be surprised if GR is giving us more than 4 small zones and 18 new arcs.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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You sure do bark loud.....but I've not seen any bite from you whatsoever. |
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
GR should have as much content as CoV did at launch (not including all the new ATs and sets). Anything significantly less is unacceptable.
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I've already forgotten about most of you
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I don't think the issue is about negativity towards GR. On the contrary, I think most of us are hopeful GR will deliver. The issue is many of us feel GR will make or break CoH. CoH is hemorrhaging players. Nothing new has been added to the game to bring in new blood. I think the devs hoped AE would do that but I can't imagine it brought in anywhere near what they wanted. The AE crack down didn't help. GR needs to good enough to wow current players, bring back former players, and bring in new ones.|
Originally Posted by Eric Nelson
Of course, if anyone's already decided to be disappointed with it no matter what, there's just nothing much that can be said. I'm going to hope for the best and remain positive. |
While I am very optimistic about GR, there seems to be a awful lot riding on it. If expectations are set too high, people will declare it a failure no matter how good it is. It's almost unfair to ask so much of GR, but at the moment, it's the only thing we know to look forward to.
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I don't understand any hype behind GR. To me, the way it's been shown (and yes, I know there is a huge lacking in real information), it's just a bridge between the two sides. If that's the *main* purpose of GR, I don't think it can do what's quoted above.| GR needs to good enough to wow current players, bring back former players, and bring in new ones. |
Yes, there might be a "city" worth of content. "New" mobs, which may or may not be just combination of powers/models of existing stuff. 2 new powersets. None of which can't be included in just a normal issue update IMO.
Villains had enough actual new stuff to warrant it as an expansion. So far, GR doesn't even hint at anywhere near that much stuff for a ~$30+ expansion. And thus, I have no hope or hype about it because there just isn't anything to go on; but I can't say I am already down on it either, other than for the lack of information overall.
It feels like, for myself, I already have negative bias for GR based merely on the *idea* that it's an "expansion" that doesn't really feel like a real expansion.
I've already forgotten about most of you
Quote:
Yeah, I think a lot of people are setting a lot by GR. Some articles suggested that it will make or break COH, which might be overdoing it, but it's always hard to say with these future scenarios.|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
I don't think the issue is about negativity towards GR. On the contrary, I think most of us are hopeful GR will deliver. The issue is many of us feel GR will make or break CoH. CoH is hemorrhaging players. Nothing new has been added to the game to bring in new blood. I think the devs hoped AE would do that but I can't imagine it brought in anywhere near what they wanted. The AE crack down didn't help. GR needs to good enough to wow current players, bring back former players, and bring in new ones.
While I am very optimistic about GR, there seems to be a awful lot riding on it. If expectations are set too high, people will declare it a failure no matter how good it is. It's almost unfair to ask so much of GR, but at the moment, it's the only thing we know to look forward to. |
I'm also keen on seeing what they do with this level 50 content we've heard rumors about... adjust the systems a bit/well and keep the game up to date, vibrant, and competitive with the other games out there. Adding content plus adding/changing to what we can do in game will really pick things up, so I hope they do well there.
I'm reasonably hopeful, given the dev's track record, but I try not to hope too much... I'm one of those boring and realistic people that tries to expect the worse.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I don't see how you can say we could get a "city" worth of content in a normal issue update. Not counting the launch of CoV, the most we've got in a single update would be Issues 2 and 7, which included a single zone and the last ten levels of content for Heroes and Villains. GR needs to have content from 1 to 50 on the Praetorian side of the fence (or 1 to 40, if they're going to add the last 10 levels in Issue 18).|
Originally Posted by VoodooCompany
Yes, there might be a "city" worth of content. "New" mobs, which may or may not be just combination of powers/models of existing stuff. 2 new powersets. None of which can't be included in just a normal issue update IMO.
|
If, as you say, GR is merely a "bridge", then the game is Doomed™. I'm confident this is not the case.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
It's easy. I combine the words "could" "get" "a" "city's" "worth" "of content". | I don't see how you can say we could get a "city" worth of content in a normal issue update. |
You might be reading into it as "city of hero" or "city of villain", and I probably should have said one *massive* zone for GR. RWZ, Croatoa, Faultline overhaul, Hollows, Roman land: all done within a single Issue Update. I don't see, based on the lack of information (
), GR having a "city" consisting of multiple zones (ie Steel, Nirva, Gville, etc). It may or may not, I really haven't been persuaded by the information there is. Does it need it? Yes. Will it be interesting enough? Unknown. Will I be blown away anyway? Doubtful.Having 1 - 40/50 levels of content within GR really doesn't do anything for me. I have a dirth of 50s already; they will NOT be doing anything other than the 50 content and I doubt they'll be doing it over and over and over. My desire for new characters, regardless of where they level, is at an all time low just in general. If they allow badges to remain on a character that goes through the switching aspect, that is about the only thing I'd be interested in.
As I said, I'm biased against it based on the idea it's being promoted as an expansion that doesn't really consist of an expansion's worth of content.....for me.
Akin to the hardcore people who didn't care about being a "bad guy" when CoV came out; they had no interest in that side whatsoever. CoV, as an expansion, fell on deaf ears.
I've already forgotten about most of you
What Grey said.
TO's are pretty much worthless. DO's are close to it as well. And to top it off, you rocket past those ranges as well.
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