Rage favors resistance toons over def
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2009-12-30 01:02 in Suggestions and Ideas
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This is a known problem, and related suggestions have already been made to the devs. Its something that appears to be currently a low-priority item for them to address. Honestly, I'm not sure why myself, as the solution would not be difficult to implement. I think it was just a case of Castle running out of time while he was experimenting with other solutions.|
Originally Posted by kojirodensetsu
The problem with rage is that it favors resistance-based toons over defense. Defense-based toons rely mainly on defense to get by. But while resistance-based toons do benefit from defense, they don't solely rely on it. This creates a scenario where rage's defense debuff largely affects defense-based toons while just being a thorn in the side for resistance.
My solution would be to give it a debuff that affects all armor sets. Something like a tohit debuff or the like. |
The correct solution is to make Rage apply a resistable resistance debuff. That would affect everyone proportionately the same.
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Because with a very low amount of +rech, you can overlap rage, negating the -def.
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Originally Posted by DoktorMechaniker
Because with a very low amount of +rech, you can overlap rage, negating the -def.
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This was the solution implemented a while back. The -def penalty is easy to get past with double stacking Rage. The real penalty is the -damage and endurance hit.
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That wasn't a deliberate solution. That was a problem they decided to leave behind when it became clear they wouldn't be able to solve the crash balance problem in the time alloted.
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Originally Posted by Calash
This was the solution implemented a while back. The -def penalty is easy to get past with double stacking Rage. The real penalty is the -damage and endurance hit.
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Just IMO, but the -DMG and End hit are not as bad as the -DEF crash for DEF based sets.|
Originally Posted by Calash
This was the solution implemented a while back. The -def penalty is easy to get past with double stacking Rage. The real penalty is the -damage and endurance hit.
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Can the average player stack Rage sufficiently to avoid the crash with just SOs and without Hasten?
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3 +3 SOs leaves 1.7s of the -DEF while 4 even level SOs will have it a recharged as it crashes.
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Just IMO, but the -DMG and End hit are not as bad as the -DEF crash for DEF based sets.
Can the average player stack Rage sufficiently to avoid the crash with just SOs and without Hasten? |
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Four even level SOs of a single type are effectively no different than 3. The real difference is under a couple % which means that it would change the amount by under 1%. Spending the inf or even the time to do that, and wasting the slot on it, is ludicrous.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
4 even level SOs will get it a recharge equal to the duration of the buff.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but three lvl 30/35 IOs would be much more appropriate and would accomplish the same thing.
Regardless, since it has a rather long activation time, you're not actually looking for a recharge equal to the duration, but slightly shorter (meaning more recharge enh than enough to duplicate the duration).
On the plus side, there's really not much use to putting anything in it other than recharge so why not?
A small side note: unless one is adverse to IO Sets, it wouldn't take much -rech from sets to push this over the edge.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
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Yes I know.... it was more a rhetorical question. |
Originally Posted by Shadow State
3 +3 SOs leaves 1.7s of the -DEF while 4 even level SOs will get it a recharge equal to the duration of the buff.
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| A small side note: unless one is adverse to IO Sets, it wouldn't take much -rech from sets to push this over the edge. |
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How is the -Def negated by stacking? Mid's states that the buff is only for ToHit and Damage so you would still be vulnarable during the crash, wouldn't you?
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Originally Posted by Calash
This was the solution implemented a while back. The -def penalty is easy to get past with double stacking Rage. The real penalty is the -damage and endurance hit.
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I wasn't actually advicating that as the way it should be slotted, only pointing out what it would take with only SOs.
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Four even level SOs of a single type are effectively no different than 3. The real difference is under a couple % which means that it would change the amount by under 1%. Spending the inf or even the time to do that, and wasting the slot on it, is ludicrous.
Correct me if I'm wrong but three lvl 30/35 IOs would be much more appropriate and would accomplish the same thing. |
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Its a bug, if you have Rage applied while the crash de-buff is on the character, the -DEF is turned off.
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Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
How is the -Def negated by stacking? Mid's states that the buff is only for ToHit and Damage so you would still be vulnarable during the crash, wouldn't you?
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Rage has a bug in its design. The -DMG part of the crash is set to stack, but the -DEF part of the crash is set to not stack. The problem with having the penalty not stack is that its on a delay timer - it takes effect 120 seconds after the power is activated (which is when the damage buff expires). If you activate Rage again before the 120 seconds have elapsed, the -DEF crash is Replaced with a new crash that has a 120 second timer starting from that point. The original crash effect disappears. In effect, you can delay the crash indefinitely by making sure you keep cycling Rage before it expires. So "perma-Rage" is also effectively crashless (in terms of the -DEF: the -DMG is set to stack and so cannot be avoided in this way).|
Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
How is the -Def negated by stacking? Mid's states that the buff is only for ToHit and Damage so you would still be vulnarable during the crash, wouldn't you?
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I believe this bug is there because the trivial solution - making the -DEF stack - would overpenalize Defense sets (even more than they are now). So rather than overpenalize defense sets, everyone gets to dodge the penalty.
I'm still honestly not sure why this isn't simply changed to either a resistable -RES debuff and made stackable, or (although the argument for why this makes sense is much more complex) a resistable Defense debuff and made it stackable. Either way it would be fair and impossible to exploit, and take all of a minute to change. Either there's some additional issue I'm unaware of, or the problem's been put back to the bottom of the TODO pile and the light from my previous posts hasn't reached it yet.
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Thanks for the explanation. I guess that means I made a lucky choice by a) making rage overlapping and b) investing in a Winter's Gift: Slow Resistance to keep it that way 
Somewhat tangential, I've been told that zoning can cause you to still experience the defense crash even with stacked rage. Any truth to this?
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For the suggested resistable defense debuff, will rage affect more for energy aura brutes compared to super reflexes?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm still honestly not sure why this isn't simply changed to either a resistable -RES debuff and made stackable, or (although the argument for why this makes sense is much more complex) a resistable Defense debuff and made it stackable. Either way it would be fair and impossible to exploit, and take all of a minute to change. Either there's some additional issue I'm unaware of, or the problem's been put back to the bottom of the TODO pile and the light from my previous posts hasn't reached it yet.
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Well, considering that Energy Aura (~26% +def, 10% +res, and a pretty powerful self heal) has more diverse survivability mechanisms than */SR (which pretty much only has 30% +def and ~20% +res from the scaling resists), it makes sense that it should be affected by def debuffs a bit more than */SR.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
For the suggested resistable defense debuff, will rage affect more for energy aura brutes compared to super reflexes?
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Before anyone thinks to make it seem like I'm suggesting that EA and SR are even close to the same level of effectiveness, I don't believe so. I'm just saying that it makes sense that EA should get hurt by def debuffs more than SR because SR has more of a focus on defense than EA.
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Yes, but there's a logical reason for that. To put it simply, the devs decided how much defense debuff resistance, if any, every powerset should get. That was their verdict on how easy or hard it should be to make that powerset "easier to hit" when affected by something that made them easier to hit. As a result, if EA has the correct level of defense debuff resistance, then Rage would affect it correctly with a resistable defense debuff. Conversely, if you say Rage hits EA too hard, you're saying EA's defense debuff resistance is too low. I'm basically putting the devs' defense debuff resistance decisions to work, nothing more, by suggesting resistable defense debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
For the suggested resistable defense debuff, will rage affect more for energy aura brutes compared to super reflexes?
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(Its a bit more complicated than that, but that's the simplified version)
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Technically, as you said, defense debuff resistance is a measure of how easily something (including mobs and rage) can affect defense. I think it's probably intended as a measure of how easily mobs can affect defense. Super reflexes have high resistance because the power set only has defense. Other power sets usually have lower resistance because they have other layers of mitigation. Let's say if rage is changed to have a resistable defense debuff, I'm not sure energy aura can then ask for a higher defense debuff resistance just because of rage.
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I seem to recall that Castle made a comment on adding -Res to Rage's crash during the time when the AffectingSelf was changed to -Dam.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm still honestly not sure why this isn't simply changed to either a resistable -RES debuff and made stackable, or (although the argument for why this makes sense is much more complex) a resistable Defense debuff and made it stackable. Either way it would be fair and impossible to exploit, and take all of a minute to change. Either there's some additional issue I'm unaware of, or the problem's been put back to the bottom of the TODO pile and the light from my previous posts hasn't reached it yet.
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Of course, I have no idea where the post is or even if it still exists, and my memory is not perfect. But according to my memory, Castle said they didn't want to add -Res to Rage's crash because, while it would indeed make resistance sets approximately equal to the state of defense sets without the -Res, it would also further hurt defense sets, since the defense isn't perfect. In effect, making Rage a combo of -Def and -Res would bring the resistance sets down to where the Defense sets were, but it would also bring the defense sets down further. I don't remember whether he commented on sets that rely on a mix of the two.
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Considering it's primarily a defense based set (with a couple tricks thrown in to diversify it a bit), EA is pretty low on the DDR scale.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
Let's say if rage is changed to have a resistable defense debuff, I'm not sure energy aura can then ask for a higher defense debuff resistance just because of rage.
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Shield (ignoring double stack Active Defense or HO slotting), which actually has less defense than EA with 59.1% DDR.
Invuln, which has less defense than EA even with saturated Invinc and more diverse survivability mechanisms, has 50% DDR.
SR, with it's almost sole focus on defense, has capped (95%) DDR.
EA, which is primarily defense based with a tad bit of resistance and an ignorable to moderate heal based on the number of nearby enemies, has only 51.9% DDR. Considering it's a set that relies extremely heavily on defense in order to survive, one could easily make the argument that EA is in need of some more DDR (among other things).
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The question wasn't "was it ludicrous", simple was it "do-able". I'll make the answer more succinct for you.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Four even level SOs of a single type are effectively no different than 3. The real difference is under a couple % which means that it would change the amount by under 1%. Spending the inf or even the time to do that, and wasting the slot on it, is ludicrous.
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"Yes, you CAN perma-rage with SOs, but the solution is somewhat ugly and wasteful."
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| Correct me if I'm wrong but three lvl 30/35 IOs would be much more appropriate and would accomplish the same thing. |
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Basically doubled rage eliminates the -Def (not sure why, just does). This way your defense doesn't crash (or go negative). There are times things like this can lead to a cascading defense failure.|
Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
How is the -Def negated by stacking? Mid's states that the buff is only for ToHit and Damage so you would still be vulnarable during the crash, wouldn't you?
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I'd hesitate to refer to having your damage crash for a few seconds as "vulnerable". You simply aren't doing any damage with your primary powers. There are other powers though, like Sands of Mu, that still do full normal damage during the period.
The End crash can be potentially problematic for toons with End management problems too.
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Having won the argument to add a heal to EA, we'd subsequently lose the argument that EA is sufficiently focused on DEF to mandate significantly higher DDR. EA is currently designed around defense, endurance drain, and heals, and has both stealth and endurance management as non-mitigation utility.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Considering it's primarily a defense based set (with a couple tricks thrown in to diversify it a bit), EA is pretty low on the DDR scale.
Shield (ignoring double stack Active Defense or HO slotting), which actually has less defense than EA with 59.1% DDR. Invuln, which has less defense than EA even with saturated Invinc and more diverse survivability mechanisms, has 50% DDR. SR, with it's almost sole focus on defense, has capped (95%) DDR. EA, which is primarily defense based with a tad bit of resistance and an ignorable to moderate heal based on the number of nearby enemies, has only 51.9% DDR. Considering it's a set that relies extremely heavily on defense in order to survive, one could easily make the argument that EA is in need of some more DDR (among other things). |
Although my own target for the heal was 4%-4.5% per target, 3% per target is not insignificant. At about three targets hit per use its 36% of the strength of reconstruction. In relative survival terms, given that EA blocks about half of all incoming damage (more or less) its actually closer to three quarters of the total survival benefit that reconstruction provides to Regeneration.
(In fact, my 4% recommendation came from the fact that it would make it comparable to reconstruction with three targets hit combined with the fact that it would also make the set a better mitigation match for SR and Invuln-at-the-time on average damage mitigation numbers. That seemed to be a happy convergence of numbers.)
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Hm.
I find a lot of things work 'better' in combination with one powerset / pool / power / IO set than another.
I dont think that everything can or has to be balanced on that level of detail.
The problem with rage is that it favors resistance-based toons over defense. Defense-based toons rely mainly on defense to get by. But while resistance-based toons do benefit from defense, they don't solely rely on it. This creates a scenario where rage's defense debuff largely affects defense-based toons while just being a thorn in the side for resistance.
My solution would be to give it a debuff that affects all armor sets. Something like a tohit debuff or the like.