The status quo of the game?

I've argued with Eiko about this repeatedly, and decided it's time to get some other input.

Eiko prefers to be able to claim storyline victories in the game like having personally beaten notable NPCs, thusly proving she is on their level. I don't really see the point to making such claims, as for all intents and purposes, most 50's have done the same thing, so there's no real bragging rights value to it, never mind the status quo of the game world.

But that's the thing. What exactly is the status quo of the game world?

In the grand scheme of City of Heroes, the Freedom Phalanx are the top team, correct? They are for all intents and purposes, the “big leagues” like the Justice League or the Avengers. However, I have never actually played the storylines very thoroughly in CoH. Is a PC ever considered an official member of the FP? As I understood, the closest a PC gets is something like reserve member status of the FP.

Granted, one can say that a knowledgeable player on a purpled out level 50 can take on a max level Hero one on one and win, but that's not what I'm getting at. This is purely in-story. As far as the storyline of the game goes, Statesman is supposed to be more powerful than a PC can get, correct?

As for City of Villains, it's a bit of a different story. Advertising leads one to believe that Arachnos are the big dogs of the Rogue Isles. I'm being told this is debatable, however, and for example, one could make arguments that Lady Grey is just as “powerful” as Lord Recluse. On a similar note, while it's not so much of an issue in CoH, in CoV, regardless of who it is there needs to be someone keeping the villains in check to prevent total chaos in the Isles. Villains are like that, they tend to make powerplays, but the setting is a fairly static MMO, making it rather pointless to say something like you've taken over Port Oakes or have tea with Nemesis.

In the sense that a PC can't overthrow those in charge in CoV due to game mechanics, is there a story explanation for this? Are Arachnos supposed to be beyond the scope of something the PCs can deal with? For example, in the patron arcs, you beat a future version of Recluse, not the modern day Recluse. Recluse then counts you as an equal to his lieutenants, (Mako, GW, BS, and Scirocco) but, if memory serves, not as a -personal- equal.

Another option in the grand scheme of “who is preventing villain PCs from outright taking over the world” are of course the Freedom Phalanx. But as I understand, if you beat the Lord Recluse Strike Force, you -do- beat the FP. Not like outright kill them, you “comic book” beat them, essentially proving you are a match for the super hero big leagues.

So in game terms, (other than the static status quo of the game) what's preventing an accomplished level 50 villain with allies of similar power from doing whatever they want? Are we just supposed to assume it's the neverending battle between good and evil? So even if you do get a victory, the heroes (or other villains) will eventually rally back and defeat you?

good luck D.B.B.

Signature heroes/villains are superior to normal players. They require multiple people to take out (soloing them isn't really "canon").

When a signature hero/villain is defeated by a player, he teleports out with the medical transporters that every hero/villain has. You cannot kill a signature hero or villain.

Theoretically there are enough player heroes to totally dominate the Isles, and enough player villains to totally take over Paragon. However, the problem is basically the same thing as two countries that oppose eachother - it's just a sort of cold war type. Neither force can go against each other without mutually assured destruction. If Paragon wants to take over the Isles and destroy it, Arachnos will make sure Paragon is obliterated.

Agonus, I think you've hit upon some of the weaknesses of the COH narrative, and also the weakness of MMOs in general. Our "environments" stay far too static. Unlike real comic books "large events" are rare in MMOs. Things never really seem to progress at all. It can feel antiseptic sometimes.

I am inclined to agree with Eiko. If your character defeated Positron in some mission, then fold that into part of your "canon" for your group. What's great these days is, if you wish to storyline his "revenge" on your group, the Mission Architect can now facilitate that.

However, because signature types and hard core lore is usually really static, (but can then be radically altered at the whim of an expansion or revision), I personally try to avoid a lot of what the "lore" offers you.

Statesman vs. Lord Recluse is a frightful bore. A conflict between Doctor North and Count Logan on the other hand, is uniquely interesting, because both parties have control of the narrative and it can go in any damn direction we choose.

I treat the lore and environment of MMOs as a total "a la carte" arrangement. I borrow I what I found useful, I ignore what I find intrusive or incompatible.

I have no problem putting Eiko-chan on the same level as Recluse. I don't care what the lore says, Eiko is a far more interesting character to RP with than some stagnant NPC. Story for me triumphs all, and I'll pretty much sacrifice anything to produce a more interesting narrative than what the rigid constructs of the MMO can provide.

My ten cents only of course.

I maintain my stance largely because the actual plotlines and missions the devs have written for us lend credence to the belief that PCs are very much the peers and rivals of the major NPCs, not their lackeys.

When Recluse needs someone to give Statesman a display of his power, he calls PC Villains, not his NPC lackeys.

When Recluse threatens the very world itself with his great Towers, Statesman does not call on the Freedom Phalanx, or even the Vindicators to stop him. He calls PC heroes, the only powers truly able to rival Recluse's master plan.

When Statesman is captured by Tyrant, it is the PCs, not the Freedom Phalanx, that ventures into Praetoria and rescues him. Every single Villain that has completed their patron arc all the way through has not only faced down at least one of Recluse's minions, but Recluse himself and come out victorious.

MMO mechanics be damned; the devs are doing the best they can in their limited format to make each and every one of us feel like the true movers and shakers of the realm; why should we not acknowledge and celebrate this?

And to MondoCool, I point this out: in the LRSF, 8 villains face 8 heroes. It's an even fight, and if you beat the SF, the villains come out on top. That doesn't sound like the signature heroes are superior to the PCs at all.

In City of Heroes (we also know it's villains too, but for simplicity it's CoH), nobody really wants to bring on the wrath of people who want the throne of power for themselves in the isles. Lord Recluse has basically sealed his throne of power. I doubt an election in the isles would be balanced, and any opposition to Lord Recluse would suddenly vanish...

I don't think anybody wants to deal with ALL of Arachnos to take power for themselves. Sure, people don't like Recluse, and would take power if Recluse suddenly died, but could you imagine the battles that would result if Recluse died, with all the people who want to take control? Lord Recluse is on the top because he can control all of Arachnos to be his private army. Heroes and Villains may be able to take him down, but they can't take down everyone else.

In Paragon, it's different. Paragon is still part of the United States in the CoH universe. If it's attacked by the Rogue Isles, that's a declaration of war on the entire United States if it was led by an army. AFAIK, Longbow in the isles and Arachnos in Paragon are considered terrorists in those specific locations.

Also, I doubt a huge attack would occur. See Manticore's Answer in the last question of the first post.

Status quo concerning the entire game?

I'm guessing it's at the point where every character stands after just being created. Among other things:

• There is no cure for the Lost.
• Jim Temblor hasn't yet found out about his father.
• Seer Marino doesn't yet know about her brother.
• The Cult of the Shaper is still going strong.
• Blunt Trauma, Void Ripper and Nexus 99 are still in prison.
• Long Jack is still looking to get his revenge.

We all do the -exact- same missions with the -exact- same story. In terms of game cannon, other players don't exist as other players. They exist as supporting characters to us.

Yes Agonus it is a never ending struggle between good and evil. Even the Narrator says so.


See

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Narrator: Yes, it’s Superman, strange visitor from another planet who came to earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Superman, who can change the course of mighty rivers, bend steel in his bare hands. And who, disguised as Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper, fights a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the American way. And now another exciting episode in the adventures of Superman.


In that respect, MMO's are a great medium for the superhero genre, it is neverending. There is always a good guy or a group of good guys to take out a bad guy or bad group who are about to blow up the planet/unleash a horrible plague/mind control the whole city AND there is always a city that needs blowing up or a plague to be released.

Heck if it wasn't like this then the bad guys would eventually win. Why? Cause the good guys ALWAYS have to stop the plot to take over the world, the bad guys only have to win once. :P Even superheros have to obey the law of statistics.

For RP purposes, I look at an MMO as a canvas (sorry forgive the snooty metaphor). I can paint whatever I like on it, the texture of the canvas only adds to what I decide to paint.

To break it down to more concrete terms, I look at the mechanics of the game as the dice and rule constructs found in the DM's guide - but I look at much of the actual content of the game as modules. I can borrow some or all of the modules to adventure in, or I can customize my own.

I think, us paper gamers have always understood that RP worlds are frame works only, how and what you place into them is your own choice - and the frame work is only a guideline, and nothing in that frame work is a sacred cow.

People argue this creates dissonance as you attempt to RP with others. What if their frame work is structured differently than yours? My counter to this, is this actually makes RP realistic. No two people view the world and the events of that world exactly the same. Take global warming for example, and sit back and view all the difference of opinion on it. Our character's view and perceptions of what is "truth" *should* be slightly different. If people can debate Babe Ruth vs. Muhammad Ali, debating Eiko vs. Recluse seems a reasonable thing the average person at a tavern might haggle over.

Eiko perceives herself as powerful as Recluse and probably smarter. Agonus has doubts.

I don't think that's incompatible, in fact I'd say that not only adds realism, it creates a wonderful dichotomy for some excellent RP. From my perspective, Recluse doesn't scare me at all, Eiko on the other hand, I'd recommend nothing but bowing politely and complimenting her hair. Anything beyond that could turn you into vapor if she's displeased.

I don't think there is a right answer to this question, it's all a matter of how you want to use what the MMO gives you to create a compelling story that you and your friends enjoy. I think we nerds get too hung up on what is "definitive and real" in schlocky stuff like COH, Star Trek and Swords of Shannara. It's just pulp, have fun with it, the people who created the pulp in the first place, don't take it half-as-seriously as some of the fans do.

But that's my narrow perspective, and I tend to fly fast and loose with these things. Even in the old paper days, we broke the Lawful Good Paladin rule within a few weeks of getting the Player's Handbook.

Let's take a look at comics for a moment, shall we?

Ever notice how some comics don't mesh up with others that are supposed to be set in the same universe? In X-Men, Magneto trashes New York and thousands die. In Spider Man, it's just another day of minor thugs robbing banks. Events are not consistant.

The same goes for power levels. One day, Dr Doom is so powerful that it takes someone like Squrrel Girl to take him down. But in another storyline, Luke Cage beats him up.

This kind of stuff happens all the time in comics, so it's only fitting that it happens all the time in CoX. Just treat it as each character being in their own book/team book, and having different writers. When there's a conflict, just deal with it with a handwave and a footnote (*in the now classic Statesman Adventures, Volume 4).

As an example, I have a character that I made years ago that had the Lost play a part in his background. When the Lost Cure was put into the game, it was a storyline that he HAD to do. I consider it cannon to that character that he's the one that created the first cure. However, he's also been teamed with other people as THEY do the arc, and I go along with it as if he'd not done it before and the other character is the one at the heart of the storyline. And when the team is done, it's back to my character having been the one. If there's ever a RP conflict, I usually keep any references to the arc kind of vague and roll with it, so the conflicts in the stories aren't big enough to matter.

Well, there are two things involved in the question here.. Are the players as powerful as the NPCs, and is the game world to static.

First, yes the players can be as powerful as some of the NPCs. For most part, the missions where you take on signature heroes of villains involve an entire group fighting a single signature character, and it usually takes some effort to take them down. On the other hand, doing the Patron story arc on my only villain to reach 50 so far, I took out Ghost Widow solo. A very tough fight, but I did it. So yes, I'd say it's not that much a stretch to say players can be as powerful as some of the signature characters. others, not so much.

However, none of the signature characters works alone in the game. They've either got Arachnos or the combined forces of the Paragon Heroes behind them (Freedom Phalanx, Vindicators, Longbow etc). Plus assorted other PC characters as well. So while a PC may be as personally powerful as say, Ghost Widow or Manticore, they really can't compete with all the backup they can call in. So that keeps things nice and level, and why one side or one internal faction hasn't taken over yet.

As far as the static nature of the world goes, that's part and parcel of MMOs. No matter when a person starts, it's a new world to that character. Otherwise there would be nothing but random missions or the writers and developers would be spending all their time having to come up with new missions. Maybe Marvel can write new stories every month for a few hundred characters, asking Paragon studios to write thousands of new stories daily is asking to much.

Also, more than any other genre, Superheroes are uniquely suited for the whole 'keeping the status quo' concept. It's something that's built into the genre from the start. No matter how many times Dr Doom or Lex Luthor is defeated, they always come back with a new plot. No matter how many times the Justice League or Fantastic Four save the world, there's someone there with a new plot. You tune in next week and it's like the previous week's adventure never happened.

There is a slow crawl of storyline that has gone one since the release of the game, with things like the second Rikti War, the conflict between the Council and Fifth Column supporters and soon the Praetorian invasion. We could use a little more of that sort of thing, but making big changes to a storyline in a game is a fair amount of work, and often doesn't impress as many people as a shiny new power set or costume options. So we'll take what we can, and make up the rest ourselves.

I personally use the canon of CoH like seasonings. A little salt here, a little pepper there. When it suits me, I use. My character exists in the Coh universe which gives a framework to RP, but anyone who makes a big deal about a canon like CoH is silly.

At some point, I think, we become high B league characters. A Nova or a Jonn Jonzz, a reliable player on any team, great fodder for a mini series, maybe even a series, but not the big gun of the universe. The scripted missions are pieces of that mini-series or our view of being an Avenger, the filled in stuff we RP is our creator's back story and may not see print. There's not gonna be news coverage if the writer decides to kill us.

In world, We're part of the cannon, we've acomplished some great things, the knows us, but sometimes they even call on us, but we're not Statesman (boy it should be be nice to ask him what the hell he's so busy with that he can't help on the STF though)

Much like Doom is Doom, Recluse is Recluse and no matter how many large or small setbacks he experiences, his place in the world isn't gonna change. Recluse is playing the really really deep long game.

States and Lady Grey are at the same level, leaders of their respective factions, much like Superman, Statesman dosen't get enough credit for the game he's playing. It's also good to remember it's all a Nemesis Plot anyway.

Game engine wise? 50s were comparable to anyone early on, but are not quite on par with signature AVs now. More Wonder Man Vs. Rulk. Wonder man will make a good show of it, but he is not winning that fight. 5 years ago Jack could tank any AV or any giant monster ,forever, really. He'd rarely beat them on his own (I'd get so bored), just not enough damage output (Energy tanks though OI), but no one was dropping him. I had to adjust his fighting style after the enhancment changes, and all the f***ing with invulnerability and then again when IO became available.

When the STF first came out Jack could solo Recluse and his damnable spawns while the others went to work on the towers then brought the damage to Recluse. Then he needed a healer...then a good healer, now sometimes 2. But he was never gonna win that fight alone.

Statesman is the most powerful mob in the game, based on the damage output I've seen in several "Rescue from Tyrant" runs, he could one shot an entire team, and have no issues beating the crap outta Hami (oh he'd get bored, but his regen and resistances would keep him standing). Once saw the guy do 4900 Smash Damage with a foot stomp. 4900...after resistances...oi. I get the feeling that Statesman is still a Beta.09 tank who could resist 99% everything. I'd love to see his table.

Statesman can't even dent my tank. (Invauln ftw)

Hah, i was just playing Scirocco's patron arc and the ending made me think of this thread

On the topic (since my other post was brief and rather random ):
I believe that some characters are the equals of the signatures yes, but not ALL should be - of my zillion alts there are very few who i would call as powerful as Recluse or Statesman in game (IC THEY however might disagree, damn egotrippers ).
Which characters are the equals is up to whoever plays them however, it's a personal pet peeve of mine to roll my eyes at EVERYONE being as powerful as the "legendary" heroes/villains.
I don't think everyone wants to be either, i suspect Agonus' characters will mostly be below that scale in power, Chaos Red's are most likely stronger or simply avoid them because they are the main character in their stories.

When I used to write, Jack was on par with States, Recluse, or Ascendant. His Virture Verse entry certainly implies few limts on his physical power, and that he also has the worldly resources nesscarry to make him a contender for MPBOE. He's my only character who even apporaches that level though, Spidermanclone power levels is plenty I say.

Sometime I think people get a little to caught up in the game mechanic/engine sometimes. I'd love a MMO that had charcters/ships/whatever that were clearly more powerful then others. Not on accident, Not cause something else got nerfed, but just were. I think it would very intresting if level 50 Captain BatClone knew that he couldn't defeat level 50 Capt Shazamerclone straight up. I understand why game companies can't really do this, but still it'd be nice, or at least fun, if the old level 20 overpowered Mage from D&D second edtion (who took like 2 times the exp of a level 20 thief) still existed. Of course, technically I've become a casual gamer in my old age and I'd never actually have the top end character.