Pistols Archtype Decisions
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-12-17 11:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Planning DP/Energy or DP/Ment. But I might modify it based on how the set plays.
Hoping it's focus is single target...50 levels of AR has me turned off of AOE attacks.
I don't see Pistols having range, otherwise it would just be AR 2.0. Most Pistol fights are close range, close range and blasters is not normally a good combination.
I could actually see it as a great Blaster Secondary Set for use when the target get closer, sort of more damage oriented that the devices provide. Typically a person would drop their long range weapon and pull out a pistol once the target get too close.
As for Blaster Ice/Pistol makes great sense. I think Pistols would best use as a short range attack, fits better with Scrappers and Stalkers. Many Mobs have pistols and they are all short range.
The way I could see it, Scappers/Stalkers would be dual pistols for more firepower where Blasters and MM would use single pistols as a secondary and more for defense and finishing off closing in attackers.
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From the video it looks like the set has a ranged cone, a targeted AoE, and a PBAoE. But it also seems to have at least 3, if not 4 ST attacks too. Counting change ammo, that leaves one power at least up to speculation.
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Originally Posted by JohnX
Planning DP/Energy or DP/Ment. But I might modify it based on how the set plays.
Hoping it's focus is single target...50 levels of AR has me turned off of AOE attacks. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm definitely going DP/Mental for a blaster. Thinking about taking teleport, just for the nuke. The mental image of *BAMF>Gun Kata>*BAMF just makes me smile due to the shear craziness of it. Like if Nightcrawler played Bale's character in Equilibrium.
As for a Corr, I'm thinking /storm or /traps for most of the reasons already discussed. Although /dark would probably work extremely well, since you can steam roll through most content just using Fearsome Stare and Tar Patch with the occasional Twilight Grasp thrown in.
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The Pistols powers already in the game, called Pistols, Dual Wield and Empty Clips, are effectively guaranteed to make it into the new powerset, and they're just as ranged as any other powers in the game. There's also likely to be at least one of the Gunslinger mez powers, such as Tranq Dart, Liquid Nitrogen Round or Explosive Tip, but we'll have to wait and see.
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Originally Posted by Bellen
I don't see Pistols having range, otherwise it would just be AR 2.0. Most Pistol fights are close range, close range and blasters is not normally a good combination.
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Are you basing this off actual experience, or off that one cool movie you saw? |
Originally Posted by Bellen
I don't see Pistols having range, otherwise it would just be AR 2.0. Most Pistol fights are close range, close range and blasters is not normally a good combination.
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Anyway, they're already ranged sets. They aren't going to be melee weapons, or for Scrappers. Pistols are for Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm strongly leaning DP/Dev, but I may want to try out a DP/Energy for the self buffs and just not take the melees.
Decisions, decisions.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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The "self buffs" really only add Boost Range. You can get Power Boost but it doesn't seem like that will be able to affect much, if anything in pistols. Boost Range admittedly is a cool addition to most ranged sets, except that it appears DP will have a PBAoE mini-nuke for its tier 9, so you may want to be in melee range anyway. I'd probably suggest Devices, of those options.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
I'm strongly leaning DP/Dev, but I may want to try out a DP/Energy for the self buffs and just not take the melees.
Decisions, decisions. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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And, y'know... Build Up.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
The "self buffs" really only add Boost Range. You can get Power Boost but it doesn't seem like that will be able to affect much, if anything in pistols. Boost Range admittedly is a cool addition to most ranged sets, except that it appears DP will have a PBAoE mini-nuke for its tier 9, so you may want to be in melee range anyway. I'd probably suggest Devices, of those options.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Yeah, but there are plenty of sets you could take if you just want BU.|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
And, y'know... Build Up.
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Fire would give you Consume, Hot Feet, Blazing Aura, Lightning Field, Shocking Grasp
Elec would give you Power Sink
Ice would give you Ice Patch, Shiver, Chilling Embrace, Frozen Aura, Freezing Touch
Mind would give Drain Psyche, World of Confusion, Scare
Energy really doesn't give as much utility, at least not for Pistols, as far as I'm concerned. But YMMV.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Point. I was making the comparison between the two choices I listed: Devices and Energy.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, but there are plenty of sets you could take if you just want BU.
Fire would give you Consume, Hot Feet, Blazing Aura, Lightning Field, Shocking Grasp Elec would give you Power Sink Ice would give you Ice Patch, Shiver, Chilling Embrace, Frozen Aura, Freezing Touch Mind would give Drain Psyche, World of Confusion, Scare Energy really doesn't give as much utility, at least not for Pistols, as far as I'm concerned. But YMMV. |
None of the other sets really interest me which is exactly why I limited my responses to only the ones mentioned.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Actually movies are only place pistols hit anything beyond 50 feet. Most RL Pistol fights are much closer. Duels usually ended with both sides running out of bullets (more due to liquor than gun accuracy though)|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Are you basing this off actual experience, or off that one cool movie you saw?
Anyway, they're already ranged sets. They aren't going to be melee weapons, or for Scrappers. Pistols are for Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders. |
This is fantasy, but when real world weapons are brought in it would be nice for them to follow some real world physics. Pistols are short range, usually not much more that 50 ft. Olympic events for pistols are for 10, 25, and 50 meters vs rifles at 200, 300, and 600 meters. Pistols are actually melee weapons with range.
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So there's no problem with a ranged set then. Good.|
Originally Posted by Bellen
Olympic events for pistols are for 10, 25, and 50 meters
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Anyway, Devs said way back when that Scrappers would never get Pistols.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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10, 25, and 50 meters is about 30, 75, and 150 feet. Which is well within the realm of what our normal ranged attacks do, which is usually 80, with some being 40 or 60 for cones, and snipes being about 150.|
Originally Posted by Bellen
Actually movies are only place pistols hit anything beyond 50 feet. Most RL Pistol fights are much closer. Duels usually ended with both sides running out of bullets (more due to liquor than gun accuracy though)
This is fantasy, but when real world weapons are brought in it would be nice for them to follow some real world physics. Pistols are short range, usually not much more that 50 ft. Olympic events for pistols are for 10, 25, and 50 meters vs rifles at 200, 300, and 600 meters. Pistols are actually melee weapons with range. |
Buuut even then, it's true this is a fantasy realm where it should be no issue to shoot 80ish feet. Because the alternative is a melee set where they'd only be able to shoot 7 feet. And that's just ridiculous. So if the option is between having pistols shoot 80 feet and having pistols shoot 7 feet, well... let's go with the obvious one.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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You missed the part were rifles were 200, 300 and 600 meters where in the game they are 80 and 150 ft. So scale would put pistols at about 8-20 feet.|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
So there's no problem with a ranged set then. Good.
Anyway, Devs said way back when that Scrappers would never get Pistols. |
The MM have pistols, and they would make a GREAT blaster secondary, pistols having anything near the range of a AR would be ridiculous. I know they do in MM hands, but they don't do much damage there.
AR/Pistol Blaster would be a classic gun crazed vigilante.
I still think a Scrapper/Stalker with a 20ft range attack would be a great addition to the game. Spines have some range now. A more short range scrapper would be a nice addition since there is no AT that fills that class now. Obviously there would have to be some compromise like in damage output (scrappers are already sub par at range).
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A meter is about one yard. A yard is three feet. 200 meters is 200 yards. Which is about 600 feet. You're doing the math backward.
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Originally Posted by Bellen
You missed the part were rifles were 200, 300 and 600 meters where in the game they are 80 and 150 ft. So scale would put pistols at about 8-20 feet.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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He's trying to say that Pistols should do the same proportionate distance in-game as they do in RL. Which, once conversions are done, means Pistols would have ~12' of range.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
A meter is about one yard. A yard is three feet. 200 meters is 200 yards. Which is about 600 feet. You're doing the math backward.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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He was saying if a rifle good 600 meters and a pistol goes 150 meters...then thusly in game, the AR that goes 80ft, would then mean the DP would go 20 ft.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
A meter is about one yard. A yard is three feet. 200 meters is 200 yards. Which is about 600 feet. You're doing the math backward.
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Putting numbers...but I think you get the point.
As to Bellen...my hope...a Martial Arts Dual Pistol hybrid set for Dominators, and then a new AT that allows Assault/Defense sets.
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If you can't hit something more than 8 feet away, maybe pistols is not the ideal choice for you. At that distance, a guy with a blade can kill you before you even draw.
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I see. If that's the case, misunderstanding, and I apologise. |
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
He's trying to say that Pistols should do the same proportionate distance in-game as they do in RL. Which, once conversions are done, means Pistols would have ~12' of range.
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Either way, thinking of pistols as having to follow the "scale" of AR is a bad idea. The "scale" is not there to be realistic, but to balance things. All ranged sets have a range of around 80 feet, with more or less depending on circumstances. In fact, AR DOES even have longer range. It has Burst at 90, Slug at 100, and Full Auto at 80 (cones are usually 40-60). There's no doubt though that if AR had a range of 600 feet, it would be crazy overpowered.
However, if we're supposed to imagine the scale as realistic, we'd also need a good explanation on why psi, fire, ice, elec, energy, and guns all just happen to shoot at exactly the same distance. And there's no point or need to roleplay that away. It's a gameplay mechanic, and nothing more.
Pistols don't need to follow any such "scale," they merely need to be balanced with other sets. Having pistols be 8-20 feet would not balance them with ANYTHING. They'd be too short for a ranged set and too long for a melee set.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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"IN GAME" rifles are 150ft base, 600 yards would be across many maps and outside drawing range. In any case giving pistols the range of rifles would be incorrect.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
A meter is about one yard. A yard is three feet. 200 meters is 200 yards. Which is about 600 feet. You're doing the math backward.
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To me a Blaster is bad match for Pistol Primary. Pistols are about getting out deadly force quickly, not accurately, which is more in a scrapper playstyle. Blasters are more nuke em all and let the courts sort it out and hit them before they know your there. Neither fit well with pistols.
I can see why they did not add pistols to start, they are in the in between area of range attacks and melee. Giving them to masterminds with low direct damage did not cause much damage, since few actually will use them as a primary attack.
Edit: adding a (short range) pistols secondary would we a great addition as well. and would fit will in a blasters playstyle
Now having a new "Gunslinger" AT with Both Range (shorter range than blasers) and some Melee attack/defense might be interesting as well and could open the door for some interesting hero types. Many Comic Book heroes would fall in that class.
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Where are you getting this idea from?
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Originally Posted by Bellen
Pistols are about getting out deadly force quickly, not accurately,
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Basic pistol design. It you want accuracy you get a rifle, but rifles are to much slower to pull out.
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Originally Posted by CaptainMoodswing
Where are you getting this idea from?
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When compared to rifles, yes. Pistols were designed to be accurate within 50 yards or less. Well within blaster range.|
Originally Posted by Bellen
Basic pistol design. It you want accuracy you get a rifle, but rifles are to much slower to pull out.
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[edit] if we're talking about realism, full auto mode on the assault rifle shouldn't be as accurate as it is...:P
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I even have a pseudo-build going in Mids, based heavily on assumptions.