Personally, I'd actually like to see a Halberd set more than a Spear set. With a halberd, slashing attacks have more meaning, and you can still stab with it, but I'm biassed, as I like slashing attacks more than stabbing ones.
That said, I have nothing against the set as you presented it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I tend to think as the spear and halberd as interchangeable. Therefore, weapon customizatio would allow for such a thing. Also, the Bardiche and poleaxe, etc.
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While halberds and bardiches can do everything a spear can do COUPLED with effectively a very long handled axe, slashing with a normal spear is not the same, unless someone heavily customised the spear head. |
Originally Posted by Flarecrow
I tend to think as the spear and halberd as interchangeable. Therefore, weapon customizatio would allow for such a thing. Also, the Bardiche and poleaxe, etc.
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I like the general look of it. Maybe make the PbAoE more like the martial arts Dragons Tail, but with a pole-arm, low and sweeping, rather than the jumps you get with swords and katana's. (which works better with katana, worse with sword, axe and mace, IMO)
I approve, though -nods-
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Personally I see a Spear/Halberd set as a Tanker set more than a Scrapper set. While these weapons are used offensively with infantry they are strongest when used defensively since it allows the wielder to take greater advantage of the extra reach provided to them as well as being able to brace their weapon against the ground. To me that screams Tanker set more than Scrapper set.
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Originally Posted by Flarecrow
First off, the powerset itself. It would likely be a scrapper/Brute powerset (ie Spines, claws) and potentially a Stalker/Tanker powerset, although I'm not sure using a spear would be very 'Tank-ish' but hey, who knows? At any rate, this is just the Scrapper/Brute/Tanker version.
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Halberds, poleaxes, and the like may look like spears/lances and can usually be used to thrust like a spear, but their main use in battle is quite different. A halberd is a swinging weapon, using the two-handed grip for leverage and the long haft to put speed behind the head. Halberd strokes were traditionally regarded as fearsome armor-penetrators and inflicted catastrophic wounds. There are stories of halberds passing through helms, shields, and breastplate armor and stopping deep in the torso.|
Originally Posted by Flarecrow
I tend to think as the spear and halberd as interchangeable. Therefore, weapon customizatio would allow for such a thing. Also, the Bardiche and poleaxe, etc.
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While in the Society for Creative Anachronism, I personally received a practice stroke from a padded, fake halberd that snapped my steel helm's leather chinstrap and permanently blotted a few minutes out of my memory. The stroke was so awesome that years later I met someone I thought was a stranger at an event who remembered witnessing it and brought it to my attention! And the SCA rules limited pole weapon strikes to 90 degrees of arc -- this was no all-out swing by any means.
The weakness of a halberd is defense -- it's all attack, but the big swing is ponderous and leaves the wielder exposed. They were often used from behind a shield wall or a line of spears/pikes for that reason.
Some martial arts emphasize swinging a spear like a bo staff, but in real warfare, spear weapons are much stronger when used in mass formations as thrusting weapons.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
While these weapons are used offensively with infantry they are strongest when used defensively since it allows the wielder to take greater advantage of the extra reach provided to them as well as being able to brace their weapon against the ground. To me that screams Tanker set more than Scrapper set.
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More to the point, heh, the Swiss fought offensively as much as possible -- they tried not to stand on the defensive at all, but to leverage the offensive power of shock tactics. The Swiss disliked remaining still on the battlefield and would move relentlessly forward,driving the massed points of their pikes into enemy formations at speed, with shattering results.
As a solo weapon, the pike is vulnerable to someone who can evade the point and get inside its reach; massed, there are scores of other pike points on all sides and it's vastly harder to control the range yourself in order to make the pike useless.
It's possible occasionally though; Spanish infantry equipped with short sword and shield once handed a pike formation a nasty defeat. Supposedly, the Spanish timed it perfectly and threw themselves flat just as the points of the pikes arrived, and the pikes passed over them. They rose again and closed, and the front line of pikemen couldn't back up to get their points into play because of the remorseless pressure of the rear ranks. Slaughter ensued.
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That's a fair point. My interest in polearms has mostly been in their usage as an anti-cavalry weapon rather than as an anti-infantry weapon.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
That's a popular image, but the Swiss pikemen, famous for their effectiveness, usually raised the butt end of their pikes higher than the point, so that a deflection would send the point toward the ground, but still leave the pole in front of you as a barrier to approach. If they'd planted the butts, the points could be deflected uselessly up by an approaching shield-bearer, who would then be inside the dangerous part of the pikeman's weapon range and could close in for the kill.
More to the point, heh, the Swiss fought offensively as much as possible -- they tried not to stand on the defensive at all, but to leverage the offensive power of shock tactics. The Swiss disliked remaining still on the battlefield and would move relentlessly forward,driving the massed points of their pikes into enemy formations at speed, with shattering results. |
Polearms or melee quarterstaves, both would be wonderful.
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I like the overall idea, and heartily approve of the thought you've put into the animations.
The one thing when it comes to spears/halberds is that they get the shaft (pun wholly intended) when it comes to modern heroic literature. They're weapons firmly associated with the rank-and-file infantry, not the lone, exceptional hero (with the exception of various Chinese martial art styles, but that's less known in the general conciousness). Personally I'd love to defy that stereotype and use a powerset like this, but I doubt there'd be much demand for it. A quarterstaff powerset borrowing from this idea would probably go over better with the general playerbase.
Still, seeing a powerset proposal with thought and effort put into it gives me the warm fuzzies, so you earn major props from me =D
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A halberd weapon set sounds pretty cool, a melee weapon with extra range and power at the expense of speed due to the momentum of the weapon-swing. I support this suggestion!
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I've actually suggested a polearm weapon set before, which would diverge from reality in that it would be a "constant motion" set. The weapon is heavy, it comes with a minimum effective range and is typically used in formation, so the "fits and starts" nature of City of Heroes combat just wouldn't look right for it. As such, being able to retain momentum by keeping the weapon swinging constantly should be how the set itself pays off. If you attack quickly enough by not leaving pauses of standing armour, you get an overall faster attack rate via faster animations. Any time you let the weapon slow down, you go through an extra animation of spinning the weapon down into a static hold, and the next attack will go through a further extra animation of spinning the weapon up to a swinging stance before the attack actually starts. By comparison, by not letting the weapon slow down, you would enjoy a faster attack speed.
Generally, I have to restate my preference for polearms vs. spears. Slashing with spears may be tangentially possible, but it's really not what they're designed for. A halberd, by comparison, is very much an axe on a pole with a spear tip right at the end of it. It IS a slow weapon, but the question is if we want to portray it as a slow, unwieldy weapon, or use a miracle excuse and portray it in one of the few ways it can be used profficiently by a lone combatant without suffering the dangers of minimum range.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It would be great if we got spears!
i am VERY on board for polearm weapons, but it is going to take some applied cognative dissonance for people, because quarterstaves, spears, scyths(always a popular choice), and slashing polearms like halbreds, voulges, naginantas, kwan-do and poleaxes, shaolin spades, as well as darth maul styled lightsabers(lets face it, someone probably wants them) is that each is balanced to be used differently, so we can either introduce 9 or so new powersets around a general theme, which will probably cause both castle and the community to have a nuclear meltdown, or accept that some weapons will be used in a strange manner(including giving lethal damge to quarterstaves). now, we kind of take this with dual blades, rapiers, main gauche and droit, and gladius, even the chinese striaghtswords from the ma pack all are primarily thrusting weapons, yet dual blades animations are primarily slashing, with a few thrusts(which subsequently look silly with the kopesh).
my take was that if its the only way i can make a musketeer then heck with it, he slashes, but this will come up if a pole-arm set comes out, that some weapons will be used in a manner that they normally aren't used.
Of course I'm on board for any pole weapons (although the animations needed is a hurdle in itself), but I've seen (and posted) a lot of suggestions for such a set.
Has anyone ever though about rounding up about 4-5 of the suggested concept and line them up to have a forum vote or rating to see what characteristics of each would be good for the end resulting set? Yeah, it's not official but it'd be different and fun 
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While I appreciate weapon-wonkishness as much as the next guy who spent his formative years playing AD&D, for CoX purposes I'd be delighted with a thrusting/swinging pole style set in which the pole in question could be customized to be various spearheads (with perhaps other polearm blades/spikes attached) or just a plain pole. Something like Bamboo Pole, Wooden Pole, Metal Pole, Primitive Spear, Medieval Spear Thin Point, Medieval Spear Wide Point, etc.|
Originally Posted by DLancer
Polearms or melee quarterstaves, both would be wonderful.
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Yes, I realize that there's significant differences between how a staff is used versus a spear versus a military fork versus a partisan. But, for CoX purposes, I don't care. I'm sure you use a massive Viking battleaxe differently than a small hatchet as well but here we are.
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As BABs has told us, the single biggest thing that is preventing the design and implementation of a polearm set is the fact that having a weapon that is supposed to be completely straight anchored to two points looks really, really bad thanks to engine constraints. I'm reasonably sure that BABs (and the other programmers/animators) could generate a workaround, but the amount of work is probably pretty huge.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
(although the animations needed is a hurdle in itself)
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Actually, it's not so much the weapon requires 2 anchors that makes it difficult because currently, we have 2-handed Stone Mace. It's the need for 2 'variable' anchors that makes it difficult. The hand wouldn't stay on the same 2 anchors for weapons like staff, spear and other pole variants. To spin the pole or thrust the spear, the hand would have to move along the weapon which currently isn't possible.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
As BABs has told us, the single biggest thing that is preventing the design and implementation of a polearm set is the fact that having a weapon that is supposed to be completely straight anchored to two points looks really, really bad thanks to engine constraints. I'm reasonably sure that BABs (and the other programmers/animators) could generate a workaround, but the amount of work is probably pretty huge.
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That's not 2 anchors. The weapon is actually held on a single anchor and the other hand simply passes through. This is the same mechanism that is used to make it seem like you're holding a Katana or Ninja Blade in two hands. If there were 2 anchors, for every variation in anchors except for the "baseline", the portion of the weapon above the 1st grip would skew off at a different vector than the portion between the two grips which would then skew off at a different vector than the portion below the second.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Actually, it's not so much the weapon requires 2 anchors that makes it difficult because currently, we have 2-handed Stone Mace. It's the need for 2 'variable' anchors that makes it difficult. The hand wouldn't stay on the same 2 anchors for weapons like staff, spear and other pole variants. To spin the pole or thrust the spear, the hand would have to move along the weapon which currently isn't possible.
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Well, Katana is a stance where the anchors for both hand are the same on the weapon. If the other hand actually uses the anchor or not doesn't seem relevant seeing as there's no other anchors to interact with.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
That's not 2 anchors. The weapon is actually held on a single anchor and the other hand simply passes through. This is the same mechanism that is used to make it seem like you're holding a Katana or Ninja Blade in two hands. If there were 2 anchors, for every variation in anchors except for the "baseline", the portion of the weapon above the 1st grip would skew off at a different vector than the portion between the two grips which would then skew off at a different vector than the portion below the second.
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But polearm weapon would need non-static anchors for both hands depending on the fulcrum you're moving the weapon on. I don't think it's an issue of having 2 anchors on a weapon but to animate a pole weapon properly, the entire length would need to be an anchor.
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First off, I'm not sure you understand what I'm talking about. Katana uses 2 hands on the sword's grip but the sword is only anchored to the left hand. The right hand isn't anchored to anything. It's simply floating in a rough approximation of where it should grip if the sword were actually anchored to it. It's actually possible, if you use quirky enough settings on your character's height, shoulders, and other attributes, to make it so that the right hand is actually passing through the grip of the Katana and holding on to empty air.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well, Katana is a stance where the anchors for both hand are the same on the weapon. If the other hand actually uses the anchor or not doesn't seem relevant seeing as there's no other anchors to interact with.
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| But polearm weapon would need non-static anchors for both hands depending on the fulcrum you're moving the weapon on. I don't think it's an issue of having 2 anchors on a weapon but to animate a pole weapon properly, the entire length would need to be an anchor. |
The problem is that the game engine is currently incapable of making sure that the polearm would remain along the same vector as the original vector. Essentially, if the character had different proportions than the base character BABs used to animate it, the polearm wouldn't be straight, it would be bent at each anchor point because the game can't change the vector of each increment to make sure that it is straight with the other increments.
It's not a question of "needs to be able to tweak the anchor points". It's a question of "needs to figure out how to make sure the haft is actually straight".
Well that's not how I read it when BaB commented on the specific issue of 2-handed weapons, but I'll take your word for it.
From the way you explain it, it sounds like the weapon is being 'drawn' depending on the location of the anchors and constantly 'redrawn' depending on the vectors of those anchors within the animation. How that works with the various stances is beyond me but I specifically remember him saying (in simplified terms as I can't recall exactly his words) taking the hand off the weapon and putting it on a new position on the weapon and switching hands was a problem. If that has to do with animating the weapon 'straight', I dunno.
What BABs explained was not a technical problem of anchors and mechanics. What he said was that weapons which require a second hand check are harder to animate because of this requirement. With a one-handed weapon, all he really has to do is ensure the weapon doesn't cut through any body parts as it's animating, but anything that sends it through open air is fine. With a two-handed weapon, he has to manually adjust the animation such that the weapon is consistent with where the second hand is, either adjusting the weapon, adjusting the hand or adjusting both.
As Umbral points out, there is nothing technically complicated about this, it's just a lot of extra work to make sure both that the animation looks right AND that different slider settings don't make it look wrong. A poleaxe powerset would very much require a sliding hand grip, which makes that job even harder, as not only does the off-hand constantly need to be checked and rechecked to make sure it's on the weapon, but it also has to be animated as sliding along the weapon without seeming like it's sliding out of it and without making the weapon wobble into it. Remember, the weapon is only attached to the right hand (for a right-handed poleaxe), with the left hand only positioned in such a way as to intersect the pole and look like it's holding it.
It's the same with Katana/Ninja Blade, it's the same with Stone Mallet, it's the same with Assault Rifle. It's not impossible or even technical. It's just a crapton of work for BABs. Of course, so is making whips by developer admission, so you never know.
I would personally consider it a much bigger visual problem that the options for what a polearm would be. Even if we ignore appropriate fighting style, not all polearms can do all moves. A spear can stab, and that's pretty much the extent of it. You can swing it and bludgeon things with the far end, and you may even be able to scratch with the tip, but a spearhead does not have a cutting edge or a blade. A Halberd would be able to slash, and it would even be able to stab, but it wouldn't be able to stab as deeply thanks to the shape of the cutting blade. A scythe, depending on how unrealistically it's designed, would probably be able to slash (or at least stab with slashing motions) but it would not be able to stab like a spear for lack of a spearhead. A quarterstaff would be neither able to slash nor to stab, but only bludgeon.
Whatever you make the powerset able to do, you HAVE to ensure that the weapons available for it can all do all of the attacks with any real credibility. Yes, it looks silly to stab with the Kopesh (making me wonder why it can even do that), but it still at least has a bladed tip. It may look silly to cut with the side of the shovel, but at least it has an edge on its side. But as a sword set requires a cutting blade and at least something resembling a sharp tip, so a polearm set which can slash and stab requires weapons that could be used to slash and stab with. It's like what was requested for the custom handguns thread - weapons that look like pistols and which look like they could fire in the ways the set is designed to fire.
And then we have to deal with melee range.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That was one of the problems that BABs brought up in one of the previous discussions of a polearm/quarterstaff set. The part that I brought about the vectors and bends at anchor points was actually something that BABs informed us about in a Katana thread (in which it was asked why the Katana doesn't actually have both hands anchored to the grip) and referenced in a polearm/quarterstaff discussion when someone suggested simply having static gripping points, which would look patently ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
How that works with the various stances is beyond me but I specifically remember him saying (in simplified terms as I can't recall exactly his words) taking the hand off the weapon and putting it on a new position on the weapon and switching hands was a problem. If that has to do with animating the weapon 'straight', I dunno.
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Only good thing about a Spear / Lance Set: Valkyrie could actually use her Signature piece of Gear.
Axes, Arrows, Maces, and Swords. Medieval weaponry, to be sure, but we're missing something.
), or otherwise comment on this concept as you see fit!
Lances/Spears. Traditionally a 2 handed weapon used for Slashing and Stabbing, as well as deflecting attacks, etc. I'm sure its been suggested before, but in the event that it hasn't, I was wondering what this set might be like.
Therefore, I am starting this thread to sort of get a player base input into something I've already put a bit of thought into.
First off, the powerset itself. It would likely be a scrapper/Brute powerset (ie Spines, claws) and potentially a Stalker/Tanker powerset, although I'm not sure using a spear would be very 'Tank-ish' but hey, who knows? At any rate, this is just the Scrapper/Brute/Tanker version.
Then of course, onto the powers themselves. This is where the input from the playerbase will be most helpful!
Obviously, the set would do a combination of Smashing and Lethal Damage.
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Tier 1: Stab (Melee, Minor DMG (Lethal))
Description: You perform a short thrusting motion with your spear, damaging your opponent. Does minor lethal damage, but has a quick recharge rate.
Animation: Holding the spear with both hands, right hand towards the end of the pole and holding from the top, left hand towards the spearhead and holding from the underside, and with your left foot ahead of your right (Henceforth known as the ready stance) you lean forward and stab/thrust with the tip of the spear, perpendicular to your body.
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Tier 2: Downward Thrust (Melee, Moderate DMG(Lethal), DoT, Foe -Speed)
Description: You perform a forceful Overhead thrust with your spear. This attack will moderately wound your opponent. The wound will cause him to take a little damage over time and slow his movement slightly.
Animation: From the Ready Stance, you lift the Spear over your head, reposition your left hand to math your right, and thrust downward, at an angle, into your opponent.
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Tier 3: Press (Melee, Cone, Moderate DMG (Smahing) Foe Disorient, Knockdown)
Description: You execute a short rush with the pole of your lance. This attack can knock down a few foes and might stun them.
Animation: From the ready stance, you take a short step forward and thrust the spear sideways towards the opponent, striking them with the pole.
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Tier 4: Lance Swipe (PBAoE, Moderate DMG(Lethal))
Description: You swing your Lance in a huge circle around yourself, damaging all surrounding foes.
Animation: This is a tricky one. Can't decide if I want to have the person jump and spin in a Whirling hands-type maneuver and have the power do a bit of Lethal DoT and some smashing DMG, or have the person hold it at the end and swing it in a circle and do pure Lethal. Feedback welcome!
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Tier 5, Option 1: Javelin (Ranged, High DMG(Lethal), Foe -Speed)
Description: You throw your spear at an enemy, dealing heavy damage and wounding them, causing them to move slower than normal for a time.
Animation: Standard Cimeroran Spear throwing animation, or a slower, similar animation to bring it in line with other sets. Can't decide if this should be the tier 5, or...
Tier 5, Option 2: Lance Lift (Melee, Moderate Damage (Smashing)Self +Def, Foe Knockup)
Description: You turn and swing the end of the pole upward, smashing the opponent and possibly sending him flying. This maneuver is part attack, part feint, and grants a small amount of defense.
Animation: From the ready stance, You twist, bringing your right foot forward and swinging the blunt end of the spear up under the chin of the enemy.
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Tier 6: Taunt/Confront
Description: Taunt/Confront. Either taunts one or taunts a lot. No explanation necessary :P
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Tier 7: Spear Sweep (Melee, Cone, Moderate DMG (Smashing) Foe Knockdown)
Description: You attempt to take out the legs of your opponents with a wide sweep of your spear, knocking them to the ground.
Animation: From the rest position, you step forward and swing the spear in a low, left to right arc.
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Tier 8: Run Through (Melee, Cone, Superior DAM (Lethal) Foe -speed)
Description: You attempt to run skewer your opponents with your spear, thrusting forward with immense force. This attack is so powerful, that you can actually push through the target, hitting multiple enemies.
Animation: From the rest position, You step forward quickly with your right foot and thrust your spear as hard as you can with your right hand. This move is a very narrow cone, like Headsplitter.
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Tier 9: Lance Dive (PBAoE Extreme DMG (Lethal or smashing, unsure) Foe knockdown.
Description: Your mastery of the spear allows you to attack with great force. You leap high into the air and dive, driving the spearhead deep into the ground with enough force that you create a small shockwave capable of damaging nearby foes and knocking them to the ground.
Animation: From the ready stance, you jump into the air, (higher than Tremor or Divine Avalanche) And stab downward into the ground with the head of the spear. Unsure as to weather it would be smashing damage from the shockwave or lethal damage from the spearhead. Feedback appreciated!
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So, there's the rough schematic of what I've been thinking of. Feel free to add, remove, edit, critique (constructively, please
And, of course, thank you for your time.
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