60 month vet reward

Okay so here's something to be discussed. Before I say anything, please note: This suggestion is solely based on pvp. I like pvp, even in its down times (like now), and would like it to be more fair to those of us that subscribe off and on.

Okay, now as all of you know, in the 60 month vet reward you are given the ability to pick a travel power at level 6, with no prerequisite. This is a wonderful idea, generally, but the fact that you have to be subscribed for 5 years to achieve it is a little overwhelming (especially since I started a new account with a friend..).

I understand that vets have been asking for better rewards for being around so long instead of costume tokens, and what not, but my suggestion is this:

Allow people to purchase the travel power portion of the 60 month vet reward as a booster pack. There doesn't even have to have anything else in it, and to me it doesn't really make it "un-special" for the vets since they still dont have to pay for it.

The reason I ask is because often pvp builds are tight, and to have someone have even a single power advantage over you is a little much (considering the state of PvP right now, anyways). Believe it or not, some people might want the speed pool for JUST superspeed, and the same goes with flight and teleport.

Any feedback is welcome, as long as you keep an open mind and don't immediately shoot me down just because you have 60 months on your account.

Also:
The ninja booster pack is NOT the solution. Please don't come to me telling me that it is, because quite honestly its not.
A) You cannot slot ninja run. That in itself is just bad news.
B) Ninja run isn't as fast as superspeed, and doesn't jump as high as superjump.
C) I personally don't want to run like a ninja on ALL of my characters.. especially considering I think the ninja run animation is ugly.




EDIT EDIT EDIT:

I suppose with the amount of counter-evidence given, it makes more sense to me. I still don't think that it was the best choice to give out this vet reward at 60, but I don't think its nearly as gamebreaking as I used to.

Additionally, if there were to be a solution, micro-transactions probably isn't the best one. My only other suggestions are maybe (what someone else suggested) veteran reward tokens, or even allow this as a merit reward.

For everyone that participated in the discussion, thanks for not flaming

I would not like to see this happen. I have PvP'd zone and arena, and about to hit the 66 month badge.

My reasons are:
1) To some, money is a "zero" issue with them. This will allow some new players to get something right off the bat that 60 month vets paid via their loyalty for 60 months.

2) And related to #1, again, some players with bigger wallets get an advantage in PvP over players that can't afford to do this and have to wait 60 months.

3) Tight builds come with tough decisions. In related threads, this is like some suggestions that want to allow more than the 4 pool choice limit and so forth, so players can cherry pick the powers to maximize their builds. This just makes this process easier. If a player is loosing because of one power, then that player should reconsider his build.

4) As much as people solo, PvP is team based. You build a team to fill the holes. You are short one power, get a team mate that can cover you on it.

First off, I'm not just shooting you down because I have the 60-month reward, though I do have it. I'd still shoot this idea down even if I didn't have it.

I'm going to /unsign this idea, for the following reasons:

1) You're basing a decision on a relatively small proportion of the game's population, that can affect a larger portion of the population.

2) Having it as the 60-month reward keeps it from being too useful in PvP, as most people don't have it.

3) I have yet to have a character on my account with it not pick up another power choice from the power pool anyways, but I merely switch the order of them around. As such, I have no characters that have freed up a power choice on it, though I guess I could if I wanted to.

4) Having it be purchasable would mean a wasted vet reward down the line. What I mean is, if you have a player with 54 months of Vet time, and they buy it, at the 60-month mark, they get very little at that point. Which kind of invalidates the Vet Reward system.

5) Having any Vet reward be purchasable has the potential to start a slippery slope, which could potentially lessen wheat the rewards mean, and what they were for in the fist place, which was a "thank you" gift to those who had stuck around for a while and kept the game going.

6) Having it be purchasable, and usable in PvP, changes the mechanics from whoever has spent more play-time in the game, or at least enough time to develop some good PvP skills, to whoever can afford this booster pack.

I remember this debate when this vet reward was introduced. Most of the vocal PvP crowd had already left or this would have been brought up before with a lot more noise (Not that it would matter, but it would have gotten a lot more attention)

Here's the take from a once hard core PvPer:

Reasons why this Vet power sucks - there is only one reason:
1. It adds an added benefit to a person based solely on the point that they have paid for the game longer. Two people of equally skilled playing ability can't have a match to determine who is better because one person would have an added advantage* (See below point before you QR)

Reasons why this isn't really a big deal:
1. (Captain obvoius) This vet reward only effects four powers; SS, SJ, Fly, TP
Lets look at all of these:
Speed
Hasten/Flurry
Super Speed
WW
Leaping
Jumpkick
Combat Jump
Super Jump
Acro
fly
Air Sup.
Hover
Fly
Group Fly
Teleport
TP Foe
TP Friend
TP
Group TP

Of these four powers, there is only one power in the level 6 range you wouldn't want for PvP - and that's A.S. or Hover from the flight pool. But you also wouldn't want the level 14 power for PvP either. Fly has always been the worst travel power for PvP because of its slow speed and even the buff to -fly protection doesn't even help make it more attractive. You could also argue that you just want TP as an escape power for PvP and skip TP foe, but with travel supression this is pretty much a pointless power as well.


In Conclusion, this is really a non issue. Im totally against vet rewards that are game changing -And you are free to disagree with me that this is not game changing, but I think it is - But this isn't THAT big of a deal.

In the old PvP, I probably spent more hours thinking about builds for PvP than most people. I can't really think of a build that would benefit from having one extra pool power. Think about it: You're gonna take SS for hasten and horizontal movement, You're gonna take SJ for Vertical movement and Knockback Protection and your going to take fitness for End recovery and Numina sets. That leaves one extra pool power. Most are going to choose concealment for Phase, but you might choose Leadership for Acc/Dam, you might choose fighting for resistance/def...Hell, I would even choose the medicine pool for Stimulate before I picked Fly/TP for PvP.

Before I begin disputing again, I want to state that I'm not intending to be bitter/flaming if I come off that way. Some people seem pretty fired up, and this is just a discussion. I'm not saying you're stupid for your opinions, and neither should you say that I am.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha Hardly. Its also hardly a majority reward. Its very much a minority reward. And not all the people who will get it will PvP. Points; -PvP zones don't open up until 15+, by which time you can easily have a travel power. 25 is the cap for Bloody Bay, which now means you can have up to level 30 powers in there. So, there is no real reason why you cannot get a travel power in there. -Prerequisites. A problem everyone else has to deal with. Can't really expand much more on that. You don't like it, neither does everyone else who has to put up with it. -Devaluing veteran rewards. They don't mean much, but 5 years is a long time. It makes sense to make it something that at least makes a difference for that loyalty. 5 years worth of subs is not suddenly going to be the same as a micro-pack. I don't have it, either. Would I like it? Hell yes. Would I agree with this? Hell no.

1) That's entirely not the point. I'm aware that travel powers are available in all PvP zones, the fact that someone can choose a travel power without any prerequisite is what makes it gamebreaking. For instance, if you were a teleporting stalker (not that those are great) you don't have to take tp foe or recall, thus opening up a spot in your build for sirens that made it a tight fit before.

2)Prerequisites are fine, except when some people don't have to obey them in places that everyone else does.

3)This is the most valid point, and everyone keeps stating it. I respect that, but this argument is kind of arrogant to me. I feel as though people are argueing that because they've been here longer, they have some kind of right to be better than me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn 1) I've yet to get this argument. In pretty much every game, someone who comes to the party 5+ years late should know that they probably won't have everything that someone who has been here the whole time has. I would never come to a game this old, completely new, and expect to be instantly on the same footing as a 5+ year vet. 2) Okay, so we should start selling Vet rewards because you might not be here to see them the same way that everyone else who has them did? 3) At 60+ months, you've probably found other ways to do things that an extra power choice probably isn't as helpful. If you take the extra power choice at all. 4) You're assuming that every hole should be filled in PvP. A good team should always beat a pick-up team, for instance. And having holes allows you to beat other people, as well as allowing you to be beaten.

1) The point isnt that everyone is better. You can be better in many ways, by having IOs for instance. The difference is that IOs are achievable, whereas this particular vet reward is not. The only way to get it is to wait... for 5 years.

2) See #1. Also, its not about what I think. Yes, I have an opinion. You all are acting like its not possible for someone else to share my opinion.

3) Yes, an extra power choice makes a huge difference no matter how high level you are. If you would like me to further explain, I'd gladly do it.

4) Very true, but this has strayed far from my original argument to the point that I don't really even understand where it came from lol. I'm not saying everyone should have a perfect build, I'm saying that an easier build shouldn't be reserved for only those that have 60 months on their belt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn 1) I never said that they would have a negative effect on PvE, just that they would have an effect. There's already a lot of ways to get around, making travel way too easy in some cases. Making it even easier isn't always the way to go, especially for newer players, who could probably use some time to explore the city. 2) I fail to see how one power constitutes a large advantage. I would think that IOs would be a larger skew in the power scheme of PvP than one more power. 3) I agree. I was merely pointing out that it's not as game-breaking as you might think. I know a decent amount of people that have this ability in-game, and very few who actually use it to skip powers entirely. 4) No, because the character slots can be stacked. This couldn't be. It would be the same thing, which would mean you'd get nothing later on, whereas if you buy a character slot, you can still get them through Vet rewards. 5) Seriously, please show me how getting a travel power earlier is "game-breaking." I think that you are vastly over-emphasizing the effects that this Vet reward has. Maybe in PvP it helps more than in PvE, but again, if you're losing because of one power, there's something else wrong. 6) No, it won't automatically give the player PvP skills. But it would only change who has the "advantage." It wouldn't eliminate the advantage being there, just change who has it from Vets to people who can afford it. That's fine to feel that way, but it doesn't make it true.

1) A good point. Don't really have a counter-argument other than perhaps make it purchaseable after you've received your 1 year vet reward? Just speculation. I don't really have a solution.

2) One power can make a HUGE difference. And again, IOs are achieveable by buying and selling, whereas the vet reward can only be gotten by waiting for 5 years.

3) I understand hasten and combat jumping's usefullness in PvP and why many people would take it anyways.. but the option of skipping it is irreplaceable.

4) Good point. Don't have a counter-argument currently.

5) In PvE its not gamebreaking at all. Remember this post was made in regards to PvP. I agree that if you're ALWAYS losing because of 1 power then something is wrong. However, You'd have a better chance of losing without the extra power than you would with it.

6) A good point, but I'd still rather it be available to those of us that are farther down the line. I'd much rather it be available by payment too, because then it means that if someone really wants it they can get it.

Also one more note:

Had this been put into effect with PvP 1.0, Im pretty sure that the leaders would have made an ammendment to the rules stating that you had to have the level 6 power if you were going to use that pools travel power. Its a simple thing to check and it keeps the matches as balanced as possible.

If that old vocal crowd could deal with a problem like this, Im sure you can too.

Okay, I will toss out a question to help me understand your point of view.

Could you come up with 2 builds of the same AT prim/sec, one with the vet reward, one without, and highlight the differences either by set such as taking another power to let you slot an IO set for bonus, or by the difference in the choice - like swapping PS for hasten?

I will also add that I have yet to ever see one power difference that can cover PvP against a blaster, vs. a dom, vs. an MM, vs. a def, vs. a stalker, vs. a VEAT, vs. etc... If this is just to fit in PS, then that is not the best support for this kind of change and the can of worms that will follow.

Edit - I see that EmpireForgotten posted a similar question while I typed this one.

As yes the old debate of The Haves vs The have-nots.

I heard a better solution posted elsewhere that it would be nice if they just gave vet reward tokens you can can redeem it in for any vet reward.

I'll try to come up with something within the next day or two, but long story short I have an exam in 4 hours that I should be studying for... and to come up with a great example would take 30-60 mins I'm sure.

But no, the reason isn't solely because of phase shift. I just used that as an example.

The only way I can see being fine with this is by having COH taking a page from Guild Wars' book - having the ability to create PVP-only characters, limited to PVP zones and the arenas, unable to head into the PVE world and started at 50.

And that... I'm not sure I'm all that fond of, either, just because of the attempts to make PVE casually accessible. It would pretty well counter all that.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Example: EM/WP Stalker. I know I know people hate stalkers but its the easiest and quickest example I could come up with. On a WP, you don't need hasten because you dont have Dull Pain. So in the first build you have room for 1 extra power, be it the hold from the APP, or some other choice where you would have to sell yourself short.

In the second build please ignore that I didnt pick up placate til later, since.. i didnt notice. Point is its still in the build lol, and that the extra power does make a difference.

Not the greatest example, but you can use your imagination and make a better one if you'd like lol. I don't have much time.


P.S. if you switch placate with a defense in sirens like i should have in the 2nd build, you're much more squishy in sirens, which is a difference to consider.

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