Maybe I'm going the wrong direction with this. I would like it to be available (if earned) to those that aren't around for as long. But many of you have made the valid point that making people pay for it is equally as gamebreaking.
Perhaps getting it through the merit system? I'm rather new to the merit system because the last time I played was before i13 came out... But if it was at the cost of a large amount of merits, does that seem more fair?
P.S. don't snap at me for this comment since I said I'm trying to make it fair for the new comers, because what I meant by it is that IOs, Experience, etc. can all be earned, whereas for the veteran reward system it can be earned but in a manner that takes far more time than anything else for what its worth. Nobody is going to subscribe for the next 5 years, jsut to get that veteran reward, they'd probably quit before that happened.
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I don't have the new Mids, but I think I get the idea of what you're going for. Again, I don't want this to turn into a flame war or anything. |
Originally Posted by Kasual
Example: EM/WP Stalker. I know I know people hate stalkers but its the easiest and quickest example I could come up with. On a WP, you don't need hasten because you dont have Dull Pain. So in the first build you have room for 1 extra power, be it the hold from the APP, or some other choice where you would have to sell yourself short.
In the second build please ignore that I didnt pick up placate til later, since.. i didnt notice. Point is its still in the build lol, and that the extra power does make a difference. Not the greatest example, but you can use your imagination and make a better one if you'd like lol. I don't have much time. Code:
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You mentioned the APP hold or another power. As a stalker, Im thinking of a reason why you wouldn't want hasten. Your phase is down longer, which means less time actually PvPing - Unless you are really big at base camping until phase is up. But Fishy/epic snip is longer recharge.
The only reasons I can think of for Not wanting hasten would be extra set bonuses. But even then, your set bonuses should be geared toward +HP +Rech + Dam in that order. Im still not seeing it.
It is completely possible that we have two completely different methods for building characters and we prioritize things differently. Im NOT saying your way is wrong or bad in any way, I just wouldn't do it the way that you are there in that example.
Most of my builds come from hours of trial and error on what DOESN'T work well together. And I can't even fathom why a stalker would not want hasten.
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I understand what you mean but also consider my edit (idk if that's still there) but the fact that in the 2nd build you would have to switch placate for a defensive power in sirens in order to keep placate (obviously necessary). The idea is that someone with the 60-month vet reward could keep both placate and the extra defense/heal/whatever from the secondary.. while the other person is stuck with hasten which they may not want in sirens or at all.|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
I don't have the new Mids, but I think I get the idea of what you're going for. Again, I don't want this to turn into a flame war or anything.
You mentioned the APP hold or another power. As a stalker, Im thinking of a reason why you wouldn't want hasten. Your phase is down longer, which means less time actually PvPing - Unless you are really big at base camping until phase is up. But Fishy/epic snip is longer recharge. The only reasons I can think of for Not wanting hasten would be extra set bonuses. But even then, your set bonuses should be geared toward +HP +Rech + Dam in that order. Im still not seeing it. It is completely possible that we have two completely different methods for building characters and we prioritize things differently. Im NOT saying your way is wrong or bad in any way, I just wouldn't do it the way that you are there in that example. Most of my builds come from hours of trial and error on what DOESN'T work well together. And I can't even fathom why a stalker would not want hasten. |
Yes, hasten can always be useful but keep in mind its not always necessary. Yea, there's always a use for it but that doesn't mean you can't live without it... which is what I'm trying to get across.
Maybe I'm slightly overreacting but I feel like having the extra survivability from one of your toggles in sirens is significant enough to warrant a change.
Although I am very indifferent on the benefits of this idea, I am against really compromising on it.
From the very begining, this should have been an All or Nothing change. This should have NEVER been a vet reward. When compared to other vet rewards, this one is the cream of the crop in terms of gameplay.
So, I would say that this should either be changed so that Everyone can get this benefit; new and old players a like and a different vet reward should be put in its place. It can be a cool power like assemble the team or blackwand, but not something that completely restructures the game.
Doing this change JUST for PvP though, Im not seeing the benefit.
Sure, the pve benefits are substantial as well but the reason I said I'm argueing in the case of PvP benefits is because... well.. in PvE if you benefit from something that nobody else does, it really doesn't affect anyone else.
Meaning if you have an advantage over anyone else in PvE it doesn't harm the other players, or make them any less viable. In fact, if anything, having someone with this on your team is better because that may mean they are better in pve.
I think I have discussed this all that I can really, I think at this point we might just need to agree to disagree.
Having been in the scene, both old PvP and new, I cannot see a benefit of another power over hasten or CJ - just can't. There might be other powers that I can equally substitute, but it wouldn't matter one way or the other.
I think the PvE benefits of this power make this completely broken, but PvP is a different animal - always has been. Its just not that big of a deal In my opinion.
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But as Techbot_Alpha said, this allows you to nab a travel power as they open up at level 14. I know that one power can make all the difference, but your argument against IO's is as "irrelevant" as the other user's arguments.|
Originally Posted by Kasual
I really dislike it when people give me the "deal with it" argument, as it really isn't an argument. In PvP 1.0 you can make rules like that.. for the arena. In PvP in zones, regardless of if its i12, or i13, you can't make the rules.
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Veteran Rewards require time, am I right? So do IO's, depending on which you buy. Unless you farm the infamy, get a lucky drop or transfer it from another character, it's an endless grind which requires time. Maybe not as much time as waiting 5 years, but it still requires a lot of time.
RE Ninja Run: I'm not if your build can afford this, but three-slotting Swift with +Speed IO's can make it almost as fast as Super Speed. Do the same with Hurdle and the same effect in relation to Super Jump.
Like the others said though, if your build is losing because of a one power difference it may need some reworking. Also, how would this one power difference have made such a detrimental effect before the 60 Month Vet? So far, I haven't seen a single person with it, but then again, I'm EU side.
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Didn't check the builds - did you have Placate by *30* or *35?* Don't forget, the new SSK rules are in effect in the PVP zones. In BB, you have all your powers up to 30 - and that does make a difference. (Most visibly with Masterminds having all six pets.) Sirens, 35 - so blasters have their nuke, controllers have their pet, etc. |
Originally Posted by Kasual
I understand what you mean but also consider my edit (idk if that's still there) but the fact that in the 2nd build you would have to switch placate for a defensive power in sirens in order to keep placate (obviously necessary).
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Yes, this is personally verified. And IMHO loosens up zone builds a bit. Arena is a different kettle of fish entirely.
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Actually, yes. It's the same in any other MMO, too, except in other MMOs it's typically limited duration loot, restricted rewards, and vanity goodies (like non-combat pets, etc) instead of veteran rewards (most MMOs do not have veteran rewards). If you were here from the beginning, you'd have that stuff too.|
Originally Posted by Kasual
3)This is the most valid point, and everyone keeps stating it. I respect that, but this argument is kind of arrogant to me. I feel as though people are argueing that because they've been here longer, they have some kind of right to be better than me?
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By the way, most of City's veteran rewards can be classified as restricted rewards and vanity goodies.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Didn't know this, and it changes a lot.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Didn't check the builds - did you have Placate by *30* or *35?* Don't forget, the new SSK rules are in effect in the PVP zones. In BB, you have all your powers up to 30 - and that does make a difference. (Most visibly with Masterminds having all six pets.) Sirens, 35 - so blasters have their nuke, controllers have their pet, etc.
Yes, this is personally verified. And IMHO loosens up zone builds a bit. Arena is a different kettle of fish entirely. |
I suppose with the amount of counter-evidence given, it makes more sense to me. I still don't think that it was the best choice to give out this vet reward at 60, but I don't think its nearly as gamebreaking as I used to.
Additionally, if there were to be a solution, micro-transactions probably isn't the best one. My only other suggestions are maybe (what someone else suggested) veteran reward tokens, or even allow this as a merit reward.
For everyone that participated in the discussion, thanks for not flaming
This whole argument is pointless, anyway. Anyone who really cares about saving power slots in their build can buy the MArtial Arts pack for $9.99 and get Ninja Run to use as their travel power. Then they get to skip the travel power prereq and the travel power itself and get their travel power by 4, instead of by 6.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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No. Veteran Rewards are exactly that: Vet rewards. They are incidental "benefits" to reward the long term player, and are unique amongst the other incidental benefits you can grind/earn throughout the game. Start with one power, and then ten thousand arguments will come for every other vet reward that people want without having to earn it via subscription length, and the reward becomes moot. So, better to say "no".|
Originally Posted by Kasual
Okay so here's something to be discussed. Before I say anything, please note: This suggestion is solely based on pvp. I like pvp, even in its down times (like now), and would like it to be more fair to those of us that subscribe off and on.
Okay, now as all of you know, in the 60 month vet reward you are given the ability to pick a travel power at level 6, with no prerequisite. This is a wonderful idea, generally, but the fact that you have to be subscribed for 5 years to achieve it is a little overwhelming (especially since I started a new account with a friend..). I understand that vets have been asking for better rewards for being around so long instead of costume tokens, and what not, but my suggestion is this: Allow people to purchase the travel power portion of the 60 month vet reward as a booster pack. There doesn't even have to have anything else in it, and to me it doesn't really make it "un-special" for the vets since they still dont have to pay for it. The reason I ask is because often pvp builds are tight, and to have someone have even a single power advantage over you is a little much (considering the state of PvP right now, anyways). Believe it or not, some people might want the speed pool for JUST superspeed, and the same goes with flight and teleport. Any feedback is welcome, as long as you keep an open mind and don't immediately shoot me down just because you have 60 months on your account. Also: The ninja booster pack is NOT the solution. Please don't come to me telling me that it is, because quite honestly its not. A) You cannot slot ninja run. That in itself is just bad news. B) Ninja run isn't as fast as superspeed, and doesn't jump as high as superjump. C) I personally don't want to run like a ninja on ALL of my characters.. especially considering I think the ninja run animation is ugly. |
And if you need that travel power to be competitive with a vet, then one of you really blows in PvP.
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
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The OP tried to address this but kinda failed because although he's right that Ninja Run is slower than SS and shorter than SJ, it's way faster on the ground than SJ and jumps way higher than SS. In fact, just by turning on Sprint it beats Fly for travel. So clearly Ninja Run (especially coupled with earnable and purchasable temp powers like Raptor Pack and Zero G Pack) IS sufficient as a travel power for those who want it.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
This whole argument is pointless, anyway. Anyone who really cares about saving power slots in their build can buy the MArtial Arts pack for $9.99 and get Ninja Run to use as their travel power. Then they get to skip the travel power prereq and the travel power itself and get their travel power by 4, instead of by 6.
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The other reason the OP fails is because: lolPvP. Who CARES if there is a slight advantage gained by some 5 year vets in PvP? If a new player really wanted to do well at PvP he can make a build without a travel power. With travel suppression in PvP as it is having a travel power doesn't really do much for you.
Running away isn't PvP, and being killed by a player basically has no penalties at all, so why, if you wanted to make a great PvP build, wouldn't the temp powers be sufficient?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
So much for the "Thanks for not flaming" If you had read my last post i essentially have agreed that selling it as a microtransaction isn't the best idea.
Why do people get so offended when a suggestion doesn't go to their taste?
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Nobody flamed you.|
Originally Posted by Kasual
So much for the "Thanks for not flaming" If you had read my last post i essentially have agreed that selling it as a microtransaction isn't the best idea.
Why do people get so offended when a suggestion doesn't go to their taste? |
Why do people see disagreements with their ideas as "flaming"?
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Because he's a perfect and unique snowflake?
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Nobody flamed you.
Why do people see disagreements with their ideas as "flaming"? |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I'm also going to echo the person who said:
Yes, them being here longer DOES give them the right to be better than you. That's what Progression in an MMO is all about. The more time and effort you put in the better you become.
This is actually true in the Real World as well regarding just about everything.
You're the one with the complex who thinks you have the right to be as good as everyone else, despite the time and effort they have put in and you have not.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I usually dont say much on the boards, but i got to say that i am against this idea. I think all the points i would have made are already out there.
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Saying that I blow in PvP and I fail at addressing my topic is flaming, not disagreeing with me. Sorry.
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Nobody flamed you.
Why do people see disagreements with their ideas as "flaming"? |
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
I'm also going to echo the person who said:
Yes, them being here longer DOES give them the right to be better than you. That's what Progression in an MMO is all about. The more time and effort you put in the better you become. This is actually true in the Real World as well regarding just about everything. You're the one with the complex who thinks you have the right to be as good as everyone else, despite the time and effort they have put in and you have not. |
This post is reminds me of just how much I hated my old job - stupid unions and their sense of entitlement...Anyways!
You Can't bring the real world into this debate really. At my current job, I have worked my *** off and impressed my employers. I have jumped past people with a lot more seniority than me because I Was the most qualified for those positions.
I agree the more effect you put into something, the better you become. But Time paid, expecially in a video game, shouldn't be a contributing factor.
When it comes to vet rewards, Im always on the opposite side of most people here. Most people think of them as added shinies that are good incentive for people to stay. I see them more as an unattainable goals for myself and would be factor against me continuing to pay for the game, albeit a small factor.
That's your choice to see it that way.
The reality is that Vet Rewards are entirely attainable to everyone playing the game (not true of all rewards ingame) if they just keep at it. The one limiting factor being the possibility that the game may go out of business.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Oh, man up, Buttercup. I said "one of you blows at PvP." You had 50% chance of being not it. |
Originally Posted by Kasual
Saying that I blow in PvP and I fail at addressing my topic is flaming, not disagreeing with me. Sorry.
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But feel free to focus on that phrase, and ignore the paragraph I wrote at you where I express my disagreement.
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
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Hell, you don't even have to keep at it. You just have to be willing to pay the monthly fee. You can stop playing for a year, but if you keep paying the subscription fee, you'll log in a year later with a bunch of new vet badges.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
The reality is that Vet Rewards are entirely attainable to everyone playing the game (not true of all rewards ingame) if they just keep at it.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Some people can't afford that comfort. The reasons I don't have several vet rewards was because I couldn't afford to keep pay for a game that I wasn't playing during given periods.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Hell, you don't even have to keep at it. You just have to be willing to pay the monthly fee. You can stop playing for a year, but if you keep paying the subscription fee, you'll log in a year later with a bunch of new vet badges.
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Just a general question to people who hate the idea of microtransactions for vet rewards:
If you have no problem with people paying their monthly fee and not even playing the game, what the difference if people pay an upfront cost for vet rewards? Does it really matter that someone has something that you feel only a small number should? or is just bad precedent?
I'm sort of playing devil advocate, because I disagree with the idea of microtransactions in general, but I would like to hear your thoughts.
I heard a better solution posted elsewhere that it would be nice if they just gave vet reward tokens you can can redeem it in for any vet reward.