Epic Power Pool: Dual Pistols

not my dog in the fight, but addressing the pistols being too conceptually narrow to fit in the existing power pools, i dont see it. given how within game we have different styles of ammunition affecting secondary effects for both the council and malta, there is no reason that there couldn't be a non-lethal slug working as a stun, or a acid splatter bullet providing a debuff. or even a glue bullet providing an immob, or we could got he western route and have trickshots that have varying effects from hitting thematically valid targets. redraw would be an issue, however minor given that the at has a number of redraw inducing powers and has been able to do quite well for itsself. pistols not working like pistols would be as much of a concern as bows and arrows being used for silly but comic themed powers like glue, webs and freeze blasts, which is to say, people who want it will deal, particularly in a game where you arrest people by chopping through their clavicles with katanas. And finally, its really not for you to decide what at needs or doesnt need new epic powers, scrappers just got more than 3 options recently, and still dont have as many options as controllers. So your remaining reason is that you enjoy people not getting what they want? tha'ts all i am seeing that is really valid from your post.

as i see it, both pistol epics and blasters having martial arts skills are things that have plentiful examples from comics to justify their inclusion,and seem to have quite a vocal fanbase. but personally, eh, not my style either way, dont like guns.

One name:



DEADPOOL

Dual Blades/Regen/Pistols

gimme mah Dual Pistals APP nao

No.

Just because Scrappers didn't get it as a Primary (and rightly so) does not mean that they need it as an Epic. Let some things be a bit more unique, please.

Every single scrapper with the pistol ancillaries is a scrapper who is using a pair of pistols. Or magical constructs that look just like pistols.

That's what I mean by 'conceptually narrow.' It can't be acid belching or bio-organic matter or tendrils of black hair. It's guns.

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Actually, as far as I can see, Weapon Mastery seems to be weapons that aren't firearms. It does however, slightly overlap with Munitions Mastery. Although, Munitions mastery uses an Assault Rifle model.

Well it could fire cartridges or capsules containing an acid. As long as the containing was made of a pH neutral substance there wouldn't be any real problem.
That's also like saying how the current pistols shouldn't be able to fire incendiary or cryo rounds because "it's a gun."

How is that different then Weapon Mastery's shuriken?

That's as opposed to every Blaster with the pistol powerset using a pair of guns? Or every Scrapper with the Broadsword primary using a sword? Or every Scrapper with the Pyre mastery using fire? In fact, having guns allows you to mix weapons, so every swordsman is no longer JUST a swordsman while still not branching out into elemental powers. I don't believe this argument holds.

Why? I can guarantee you one thing - most of the people who want dual pistols would be perfectly happy to deal with redraw. In fact, precedent already exists. Archery Blasters face redraw when using Munitions powers. And, in fact, any weapons character faces redraw when using anything outside their primary. Eliminating redraw is appreciated, but not required.

There are no existing pistols, therefore nothing for the ancillary to work like. And even if you count the all of three Thugs Masterminds attacks as "existing pistols," there's no reason why it can't work like that. Or do you mean the upcoming Dual Handguns set? Why couldn't it work like that? We don't even know how this is going to work.

Since when is an AT that has the least amount of Epics one that "doesn't need anything at this point?" Really, it's bad form to pull the "cost and workload" argument in a suggestion, because it's so very relative, and because it doesn't actually apply to the merit of HAVING the set, only to the merit of making it.

In name only. "Weapon" mastery has precious little to do with weapons at all. It's Devices Mastery, if anything. It has ninja shurken and Devices power. A handguns epic has nothing at all to do with "Weapon" mastery at all. Scrappers already have something like two dozen "weapon" sets already, and "Weapon" mastery matches not a single one of them.

Only insofar as Dual Handguns have less depth than other Blast sets. Your argument seems to hinge on this (as you mention it twice), yet the very fact that they are adding an entire handgun powerset seems to suggest that the developers do not feel this way. The conceptual and interpretive depth for dual handguns is limited only inasmuch as people's ability to conceive of two-handgun-using characters is, and I dare say two handguns plus a melee weapon is much more liberating than just two handguns on their own. I don't see "just fire" as being any less restricting than "just guns," myself.

That, and if this is a central point in your argument, how does that account for CoV Patron pools, which have precisely ZERO depth to them by design?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

i reiterate this question. pistols have at least been used a great deal more, culturally, than a relatively obscure weapon(prior to the 80's ninja popularity boom) from the japanese feudal era. honestly, it may be a animation timing disaster, but it would be cooler to have there be a kind of customization whereas shuriken, throwing daggers, throwing axes, and pistols would be substitutable for each other to avoid epic pool bloat, but still make the weapon mastery pool thematically broad enough for a number of naural heroes. but i'm not thinking that would be doable, even in the current system.

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fortunately, given its limited thematic use. But i reiterate, you are being overly sensitive about the thematic limitations of the pistols. all pyre mastery powers are flames, generally when you take an epic powerset, then you do so for the theme. really, given the thematic breadth of the ways pistols have been used, from westerns, to the matrix and similar sci-fi action films, to anime fantasy stuff like chrono crusade or trinity blood. even hellboy had a pistol, but it was a method of delivering the magical weakneses of monsters. so pistols have been able to fit a broad number of settings, So i really am unconvinced that pistols are much more narrow than the other sets.

oh, and its two powers, to nitpick, exploding shuriken as well.

Thing is, people have addressed your points. Repeatedly. And you ignore the responses. Repeatedly.

Do you have any intention in this thread of helping to design a way in which Dual Pistols can be presented to the Developers as an acceptable power set for use in the Epic and Patron Power Pools for Scrappers, Stalkers, Brutes, and Tankers? Or are you just here to troll every suggestion put forward by other players and be as negative as you possibly can? Like you've been in pretty much every other thread I've seen you, like the Fix Burn thread.

The Shuriken is actually two powers, and if you want any attacks out of the set, that's what it has. Shurken and Exploding Shuriken. And while that and Web Grenade (which still looks like a military issue grenade, mind you) and Caltrops do fit the ninja theme, Targeting Drone does not.

But beyond that, this point centres around the belief that dual pistols, in and of themselves, are a concept-restricting idea. I'm not going to argue with you whether or not they are. Developer action clearly demonstrates their belief on the matter - Dual Pistols are diverse enough to constitute a full, complete set just by themselves. And that's something I CANNOT say about Weapons Mastery. Making a full set out of the thing would end up as "Ninja," specifically because at least two of your attacks would be shuriken. And "ninja" is more specific than "pistol."

But even precedent and concept expansion aside, it's just not reasonable to claim Dual Pistols are concept-restrictive, yet ignore the GLARING restrictions something like Dark Mastery poses. It's darkness, explained via the Netherworld and replete with demonic tentacles, hellish squeals and grinning skulls. If THAT'S not concept-restrictive, then I see no reason why we can't give a free pass on Dual Handguns.

Frankly, seeing what I do from Gunslingers in the game, I see no reason why we can't have the set go with a single-shot attack, a cone attack, a freezing bullet, a sleep bullet and some kind of targeting mechanicsm, like... Targeting Drone! Or, if you don't like copying powers (despite Weapons/Targeting Drone being identical to Body/Focused Accuracy in actual function), then let's go with UI Goggles that activate sort of the the IR Goggles and then fade away.

I see no reason to NOT give all ATs access to a few weapons they don't have access to in their primaries, if for no reason other than because mixing weapons is cool. This doesn't stop at giving, say, bows to Scrappers. I'd say give Blasters a sword or a mace to swing around as an anchillary. Give Masterminds a hard-hitting melee weapon. I don't really know how their Epics are structured, but I just see weapon mixing as nothing but a good thing. It's about as close as we're going to get to a free-form build system, at least in terms of thematics.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

If people stopped making stupid suggestions, I might stop disagreeing with them.

And no - I'm not here to help design a way in which a ranged set with a high degree of customer currency can be interpreted to melee archetypes. In fact, I'm actively against the idea for some reason which might become apparent if one were able to navigate a sentence.

This is not the 'Everyone agree with me' forum.

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So why are you so surprised that people aren't agreeing with you?
If people want something and you dont agree with it, the simple answer is to ignore it. If it makes it in game, simply dont use it. No one is forcing you at gun-point (heh) to agree and take the powers.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Then give us a valid reason it shouldn't exist.

Really? Well Gee guys, what are all those other ranged and targeted aoe powers a scrapper can get now from epics?

Its not so much that people cant navigate a sentence but rather that you haven't made a more convincing one than that you like pissing in equilibrium fan's cheerios. you have made specious complaints about thematic breadth that are just flatly wrong and seem to be pulling from some design document that you have made in your head that the developers must use that shows no resemblance to current precedent. You have stepped up inflammatory language after failing to be even moderately convincing, and you have completely ignored when people made valid responses to your reasoning, instead opting to be contrarian for the sake of being contrary.

now if you have an actual reason that this little thought exercise not take place, im sure we would all be fascinated, but could it be predicated on something other than you stomping your feet and saying no?

I love the idea...don't perticularly care for you list of powers. :P

But then, I don't care for the idea of a hold/immbolize being in the epic set either.

I'd rather wait for GR to get this epic for Scrappers.

Get the fancy animations, and alot of different ranged options with the Dual Pistols. With maybe one utility power (like Focused Accuracy).

I'm still annoyed by how Blaze Mastery requires one to grab the immbolize or the hold, when all I want from it is Fire Blast just to throw a fire ball. :P

I agree. I would very much like to see Scrappers get a Dual Pistols APP. I just... well, I'd like to take the set because the powers were useful and cool, not just cool. Swapping Ranged Shot down a tier or two would be nice for that.