Authority to Kill

How plausible is it that Paragon City's unique Law Enforcement and the FBSA government agency who license metahumans to save helpless civilians, might train a select few heroes and empower onto them, like Police Officers, the authority to kill in order to save? This question came to me in light of the coming wave of pistol-wielding shooters. As writers and roleplayers, do you think it is believable, and would it be largely acceptable, that the FBSA and Law Enforcement, or whoever it need be, would entrust onto a few truely heroic superhuman citizens, who are already licensed to save, the authority to kill? And why? Or why not, as the case may be? The Zig too unreliable, too full to hold the criminals and thus certain heroes may now shoot to kill? Or is the judge, jury and executioner problem too much power for one hero? Help please, lets talk.

I always thought the concern about Clamor's plot to blow up the sewer under the Zig was concern over revealing just how far underground the Zig went.

Then there's also the Orbital Zig Station where Criminals are securely teleported to. (yes, I know, that's only referenced in fan AE arcs, but how cool would a Zig in space be?. No, not Zig Zag in space, step away from the Webcomic link)

On a more serious note, one of the red-names commented on the likely hood of actual death occurring in the City of Heroes universe being actually low, at least within the bounds of Paragon City. The numerous mystic aligned cults, such as the Hellions, Circle of Thorns, Carnival, Legacy Chain, and Mu for example, probably have wards and spells in place to automatically rez those vulnerable to death on a safe plane of existence. Those not known for mystical plans, such as the Malta or Crey probably have legions of non-associated lawyers standing at ready to bail out those that have been arrested. Others like the Council, 5th, and Sky Raiders probably have the Emergency Medical Teleport System hijacked, and any of their guys defeated in battle are warped to a combat base.

Basically, I don't think Killing is a big issue for anybody involved in issuing a Superhero license, or for any Arachnos issuing a license to commit crime in the Rogue Isles. You'd have to work really hard to actually kill somebody in the Paragon City universe, such as turning off the emergency medical transport system, blocking or reversing any spells, securing a line of teleportation or transport to the Zig, and so on and so forth.

If I'm understanding your question properly, you're essentially asking whether or not the police would have a "Super S.W.A.T."

S.W.A.T. (Special Weapons And Tactics) officers are essentially a military squad within the police, resplendent with military weapons and combat training. They go into situations that normal police can't handle... Unlike in the game where they show up as every other cop at a certain level range.

Essentially, S.W.A.T. officers can kill... They don't want to, but they can. They're being sent into situations where the individuals involved aren't too keen on sparing human life, so the S.W.A.T. officers have to be ready to take a human life if things get dicey.

Would the police train Super-powered S.W.A.T.? I believe they would. I believe they'd treat it as a logical progression in dealing with the lunacy of a world where the supernatural walks the streets as easily as an average citizen heading to work. Would they train them to kill? Probably. Encourage them to kill? Not likely. As I understand it, police aren't encouraged to kill, just trained for the times where they might have to.

Imagine a bank robbery in Steel Canyon. Big shiny lobby with two dozen hostages pinned to the ground at gunpoint. The armed madman is waving his machine gun around threatening to plant a bullet in one hostage for every minute the bank manager wastes not giving him and his boys the vault access codes. SWAT police and costumed heroes are otherwise engaged in a Rikti invasion downtown. You happen to be one of the face-down hostages, you got a loaded piece under your shirt and your aim is pretty good, given the circumstances. With your mind's eye, you pick your targets and picture your maneuver. There are six, maybe seven of them, each armed to the teeth with guns and knives. They may even be drugged up on 'Dyne. If you shoot to maim, you would quickly be overpowered and it'll all go south, the innocent hostages would be dead because of your stupidity. But if you fired six or seven lava hot headshots, you might live to see the hostages escape. You wait it out, praying for a hero, a policeman, anything, to swoop in and save the day. Nothing. Now you're just hoping this desperate gunman is bluffing, no way he would kill twenty four people just to make a point. Blam, a little blonde kid bleeds out. Blam! His mum bites a bullet. Now what do you do?

In a situation like this, is it believable to pull out that loaded piece, blow the seven lunatics to hell and whip out your hero ID, hold it high and shout, "It's alright, don't panic. You're safe now, I'm Johnny "Maverick" Cain and I'm licensed to kill." In real life, vigilantees can't just go around killing the bad guys, can they? It's criminal. But in a situation like this, if old Johnny kept his hands tied and did nothing drastic, everyone would've gotten dead, plus a ward upwards of $800000 cash would've gone walkies. My question is, would that be enough to send the FBSA and Law Enforcement issuing a 'permit to execute' to already licensed heroes? Is that plausible, or would they just recruit more policemen? To get away with righteous murder, would Johnny have to have been an immigrated Praetorian rogue? See what I'm saying?

I dont think the CoH version US goverment would licence free agent heroes to kill .

They may well recruit hero into exsisting agencies of the goverment that have shoot to kill clearance ..like the NSA , CIA , Secret Service .

But even these are not meant to shoot on sight on US soil ..the rule of law still applies ..all death row inmates have a right of appeal .

There are however a few spin of issues ..we are at war with the Rikti , so different rules apply , are Monsters , giant or otherwise , ghosts , demons , robots , considered alive , and do they have the same rights as human(ish)s ..and what about clones .


However given the nature of most attack powers of heroes , and the NPC villians the poor grave diggers must be run of thier feet . OR the hospitals are like the tardis ..much much much bigger on the inside.

I think licenses to kill should be reserved for NPCs - when a player's character kills, regardless of flavour (redside/blueside) it's still an abhorrent act.

It's very difficult to justify killing someone. Films and telly does it but not, as far as I'm concerned, without glamorising it in some way.

The death of somebody at the hands of the police/government should be dealt with like any other case of death by unnatural causes - with a full investigation into the practices and events that caused a superhuman to kill someone.

Therefore if it were to happen I think it would make more sense and be more believable if it were part of a one-off plot that explores those issues. To have it as something more commonplace would, in my opinion, be an exploration of total fantasy and not a particularly healthy one.

There's also the issue that's been ignored here as to non-human things heros wind up fighting.

You know, Clockwork, Devouring Earth non-devoured, Hydra and (technically) Rikti.

Still, I'm of the opinion that Heroes generally arn't allowed to kill, unless it's absolutly necessary in order to save more lives/the world, and even then don't expect to just get away with it, you know an investigation into it or somthing?

Or have we all forgoten teh trial of Dr mechano already :P

The authority to kill? I agree with the saying of 'no'. The responsibility to do the right thing if the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few though is something that I feel is baked into the hero genre. From Batman and the Joker, to Superman and others, to even Wonder Woman and such.

There are villains which probably -are- killed. I'm pretty sure we don't arrest the Rikti, unless we have some kind of District 9 type place for them. Non-living Vazhilok (So the Cadavers and Abominations. Eidolons are humans given abilities through the Doctor's work) are probably taken out fully, as are Clockwork and other robot types. Hydra? I'm pretty sure they don't end up in jail. Same goes for the Banished Pantheon (Bar the Shamans.) and the Devouring Earth. Rulaaru probably get sent to the squishy eye in the sky.

I do have a police character, but he's a Peacebringer, and thus uses his abilities to try not to kill people. Not even when they throw school buses at him. If he had to kill though, and there was no reasonable choice or other option that could be done in time? He'd kill them, but feel like hell afterwards.

Once again Z says what I was trying to only far better!

On the seeminly agreed basis that Heroes do not try / intent to kill , but arrest , and talking pre GR ..How does CoH make us play heroes ? ..there is no reputation or faction system as many games have ..and as GR is not required to play CoH ..there is no sign of one appearing .

So going back to the OP it is totally possible ..it is more a question of how would it be done
..there are already many superpowered organisations Longbow , vanguard , Psi and awakend PPD which clearly use deadly force ..all that is needed is a goverment backed reason for a new force .

Point now understood and accepted. Blueside, yes, killing tends to be the last resort (a la Batman, when I think about it) The odd case or so will tie in nicely with the Vigilanteismn of GR.

Redside though? Gonna disagree. Murdering *civilians* is a no-no, yes. Background canon is that Recluse doesnt like general crimes, and tends to have whoever is envolved paid a visit by someone rather nasty. After all, without his citizens, he hasn't got much of an empire. But getting fussed over a Destined On culling off Longbow? Luddittes? Wyvern? And even extending to people in Paragon? I don't think he'd so much as bat an eyelid.
Yes, it's still 'wrong' to the in-game society and world. Doesn't mean that Villains are going to be holding back the way Heroes do. And that should be down to IC player choice/character choice.

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I'd disagree about Batman. The fact that he holds himself never to kill, but also holds himself never to let a child go through what he went through, coupled with how many the Joker has offed with his schemes, stunts and crimes over the years doesn't add up.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Batman. It's just that the Joker isn't the villain he was from the campy comics. He kills, gets put away, breaks out, kills, gets put away, breaks out, this may more be an issue with comics as a whole though regarding slow/static timelines and so forth.

Tech, I think AP means that if you're a villian who kills teh world will consider that you're doing an abhorrent act and would treat you with far less sympathy then a campy bank robber.

So while the brutal ditatorship might not mind you killing his enemies, the general public around the world will go, "Oh my god, you monster" which I think was APs point

Also my point was answering Pious's question too which was, "Would the authorities sanction super-powered operatives/is it a feasible idea?" I say no. It's all too risky.

Recluse's idea of 'legally-sanctioned' is undoubtedly very different to a Paragon Police approach so if the sanctioning was done by him then I can see characters becoming agents of his.

That's not the same though as a group of psychic heroes helping out in an investigation on behalf of the FBI/CIA/Police. If said heroes were part of some psychic assassination programme then that raises a whole heap of moral problems.

I suppose there is one exception though - superhumans enlisted into an army to fight a war. Vanguard, a UN-sanctioned body, has superhumans in its ranks to fight back the Rikti. It's a war situation and that changes things (for me).

Outside of the RWZ though, unless Longbow/Arachnos decide to make overt moves in the Isles then we haven't got another war situation.

Finally, I suppose if someone wanted to pursue a conspiracy theory style line in RP (i.e. the FBI have hired supers and are tapping your phone!) then they're free to do so. But rather them than me: that'd take some really good justification of having superhumans under government employ, able to kill *potentially* civilians involved in organised crime as well as the usual threats.

Right, I'm fast losing the thread of my argument. So I'll stop.

I'm of the impression that we are government sanctioned (FBSA, DATA, GIFT, MAGI, SERAPH, ELITE) and licensed to save, similar to Marvel's SHIELD initiative, although City of Heroes did it first. Yay us. Arctic Princess, I think I know what you're saying... that if such an abhorrent act like killing, even criminals, was condoned to common heroes, we would be crossing that moral line that seperates us from the villains and keeps us sane. You're saying that unlike the Etoile Isle's crooked government, the United States just wouldn't allow its citizens to kill, not without consequences, regardless of circumstances. And you argue that the likes of Homeland Security, Longbow, Vanguard, and PPD SWAT have circumstancial authority to kill because of a special 'military' or 'police' status. So your answer to the original question, like most other people so far, is "common heroes, authority to kill, no, its not plausible", I'm I right? Either way, I think you make a very good point.

Although, it means good old Johnny "Maverick" Cain from the bank robbery scenario would be facing prison, even though he might've saved the lives of those hostages. We're looking at a Punisher type problem. As the myth, the legend, the man, Matt "Positron" Miller explained it at Hero Con 09, redeemed-villain rogues and fallen-hero vigilantes are part of the Going Rogue expansion and will eventually be able to migrate to Paragon City. Does this mean they'll be subject to our laws and be expected to behave? Matt says they have their own 'code' that they live by and see themselves, for whatever reason, as being above the Law. As roleplayers, what do we do, how would we react, when the inevitable happens and some new and controversial fallen-hero vigilante supergroup from Praetoria (or not, they could be home-grown) suddenly surfaces and begins to clean our streets with blood, fighting the fire with a bigger fire, making three left turns to make a right, unleashing their own brand of punishment where our justice system fails, ignoring the laws of man and acting by a different code, even calling the shots that kills that one perpetrator and saves a thousand lives... including yours. So the question is, it may be unlawful, but is it absolutely wrong to be vigilante? To be renegade?