* Edited my last paragraph there slightly. Gotta stop doing that. By the way, I understand your point now Grey, well said.
replying to Pious' post about GR and vigilantes ..
First it depends on how the Game sets it up will GR in Hero zones be attackable ? , personaly i think unlikely . This then leaves us where we are know , in fact we have a ongoing bad hero issue at GG . The options are to totally ignore them , assume they do not exsist , as the game offers no mechanics to deal with them . OR we treat them as our Toons would , arrest them , hunt them down ,or turn a blind eye . but this gets us backto the problem of in game concequences .. what can the players do IF the killer refuses to be locked up , there is no thing players can do .
CoH really seems to want to be a game of Heroes , not shades of grey .. many other games have a rep or faction system to shape players action ... so you would have PPD/longbow/FC/Vanguard faction ..do crimes they start attacking you , WW does not sell to you . ..
So it all left to players making up their own rules ..but with only the /ignore to deal with rule breakers .. not sure if there is a real answer ..
Turns out we're not alone having this age old discussion right now. On the forums at Marvel.com they are talking about why heroes dont kill but villians can escalate. Best quote, "a hero's job is not to get the bad guy, it's to protect people." Which presents the tought of heroes as shields, to guard the innocents and maybe every now then whack a villain unconcious, ready for the proper authorities. Whereas vigilantes aren't shields, they're more like the sword, which brings about a swift end. Take your pick, so to speak. Shield or sword. In this column and this one, DC comics editor Tony Isabella reminisces on the golden days when heroes were uncomplicated, and the writers were content with aiming their creative mirror to reflect the light of life as opposed to the inner darkness of today's broken heroes. Just something else to think about. 
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These people may kill in the line of duty, but would (in our world anyway) still be subject to prosecution if they just go around killing villains. It's not so much an 'authority to kill' as a recognition that they might kill people in the course of their job. Don't forget that (again, in our world) if a police officer even fires a gun, that officer will be filling paperwork for a week. If the bullet hits someone, that's vastly more paperwork, and if the shot kills the officer is off-duty until a board of enquiry clears them of unjustifiable shooting.|
Originally Posted by Pious
And you argue that the likes of Homeland Security, Longbow, Vanguard, and PPD SWAT have circumstancial authority to kill because of a special 'military' or 'police' status.
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| Although, it means good old Johnny "Maverick" Cain from the bank robbery scenario would be facing prison, even though he might've saved the lives of those hostages. |
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| We're looking at a Punisher type problem. As the myth, the legend, the man, Matt "Positron" Miller explained it at Hero Con 09, redeemed-villain rogues and fallen-hero vigilantes are part of the Going Rogue expansion and will eventually be able to migrate to Paragon City. Does this mean they'll be subject to our laws and be expected to behave? |
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| when the inevitable happens and some new and controversial fallen-hero vigilante supergroup from Praetoria (or not, they could be home-grown) |
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| So the question is, it may be unlawful, but is it absolutely wrong to be vigilante? To be renegade? |
The one thing you can be sure of is that society as a whole generally thinks that vigilantism is wrong, though the citizens may agree with an individual vigilante under the right circumstances. Those same citizens may then turn on that same viglante when circumstances change.
In truth, the answer to you question is no. But that's only because it's very hard to find anything which is 'absolutely wrong' just as it's hard to find the opposite. Specific circumstances could make acts of true horror 'right' in some way. The best example I can think of offhand is war: an utterly horrifying, terrible thing which has been justified (even correctly) for millenia as 'for the greater good.'
But this is all kind of the point of adding the Going Rogue mechanic. It's applying some consequences in-game for those who wish to play heroes who don't with to follow the path of the True Hero. We've made them before, and just had to ignore the fact that the world ignores our misbehaviour. Now it need not.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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7 headshots, from a semi-auto, before they can return fire, and hoping that a death spasm doesn't cause a hostage to be shot anyway, or just shot when a trigger is pulled in shock from the first shot? even with super reflexes and extreme luck, i doubt the RoF would keep up.|
Originally Posted by Pious
In a situation like this, is it believable to pull out that loaded piece, blow the seven lunatics to hell and whip out your hero ID, hold it high and shout, "It's alright, don't panic. You're safe now, I'm Johnny "Maverick" Cain and I'm licensed to kill."
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This is why they use hostage negotiators, even if not successful, they distract the criminal so they dont shoot people.
Gonna have to add a "no" to killing anything beyond rikti (its war, its different), and non-humans, for heroes.
Shoot to maim. if fire blasters can do it, so can you.
You will believe a Dual Pistol Blaster can pull that off... they make a Grammaton Cleric look like an amateur.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Non leathal rounds!
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Near total aside: Law enforcement officers typically use more lethal rounds.|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
Non leathal rounds!
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There are basically three types of jacketed round used in modern firearms: hollow point (HP), soft point (SP), and full metal jacket (FMJ). HP and SP rounds are banned in the accords of war because they are more likely to cause large wounds and kill the target. Worse, the wounds they cause tend to result in later death due to internal injury even if they don't kill immediately. FMJs tend to punch a whole right through the target, and have better armour penetration characteristics anyway.
Policemen, however, have a different criteria for their ammunition. They need to put down the bad guy without harming anyone else. HP rounds blow up like a small bomb after penetration. The wound effect is massive. The probability that an HP round will go through its target and hit a bystander is next to none. Equally, if you miss and hit a wall, the bullet will typically fragment immediately so the danger of ricochet is more or less nothing. So, for the application of law enforcement, a round banned under the rules of war as inhumane is the most humane option. Hmm, maybe this wasn't such an aside after all.
For those still reading, soft points are a kind of half and half solution, better penetration than an HP, but not as much as FMJ, and slightly more stable in flight than an FMJ to boot. They get used for hunting large animals and for target shooting, or so I'm told.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Non-lethal rounds are better than non-lethal broadswords.
Non-lethal beheader! Non-lethal disembowl!
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FREEM!|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Non-lethal rounds are better than non-lethal broadswords.
Non-lethal beheader! Non-lethal disembowl! |
Had to be done
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Ah come on, flat of the blade is doable. Those moves are only named so to intimidate. My broadsword only kills monsters anyway. |
Originally Posted by Zortel
Non-lethal rounds are better than non-lethal broadswords.
Non-lethal beheader! Non-lethal disembowl! |
So you can use Rubber Bullets on anyone who's human! Problem solved
Interesting...
...as mentioned there was the 'Trial of Dr Mechano' waaay back when on the EU RP forums. Formerly a villain Edward Johnson aka Dr Mechano had always found it hard to adjust to working under the 'heroic way' of life.
This is was part of an over arching plotline and Edward had seen the risk to life that a group of Freakshow were willing to go to and that they had better be stopped, permenant fashion than simply be carted off to the Zig.
To that end he butchered an entire sewer maps worth of Freakshow and remained unrepentant to it, claiming he was administering 'the Lord's justice, higher than that of man and that, as sinners, these men must be punished.' He made no qualms and didn't fight the arresting officer.
Under a court of his peers, a Meta-human jury he was found guilty of murder (yes we actually RP'd out the entire trial ingame, complete with courtroom base and the prosecuting attourney was really a Nemesis Automaton kept in place by Nemesis to deal with troublesome heroes) because the amount of force warranted was above and beyond what a police officer would have had to use in that situation, Edward easily had the option of knocking them unconscious, slapping a Zig Tag on the offenders and letting them be teleported out but he didn't, he beat them to death with his netherenergy empowered hands.
According to the background lore a Superhero is held to the same strict standards as a Police officer, in that the death of a criminal is only warranted if there was no other way to bring the situation to a close without further risk to the wellbeing of the public.
And somthign similar recently came up at GG, with excessive force, a shame you're not around to help with it D:
Boondock Saints: "Do not kill, do not steal, do not ****. These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of conduct which every man of every faith can embrace. We are two lesser forms of filth: Not to cross the bounds into true corruption, into our domain... For if you do, you will see we three, and on that day, you will reap it."
Vigilantes and Rogues are NOT sanctioned by the government (though I guarantee some players will RP as if they are). They don't have the authority to take the law into their own hands, but they will feel as if they have the moral obligation to do so.
As far as condoned killing, as in every instance, it depends on the situation. As I stated before about real-life S.W.A.T., sometimes they have to kill people to save the lives of innocents. This is considered perfectly justified (even if it still weighs on the officer's hearts). If a hero simply had no other choice (or if the only option was heinous and also a breach of moral or legal ethics), it would be condoned.
A licensed hero going out and slaughtering criminals wholesale, however, is renegade, and a violation of their license and registration. Depending on who was slaughtered, in the Court of Public Opinion, they might be heralded as heroes still... For a while. As the streets continue to run red, however... Opinion may very likely change.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.