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All the fun of being a Mastermind, with none of the survivability!|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
Blaster Ranged Sets with Mastermind Pet Sets
Mastermind Pet Sets with Scrapper Melee Sets |
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Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
Dominator Attack Sets with Scrapper or Brute Defense Sets
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Hm. Masterminds have ranged attacks, so with the scrapper sets your pets/melee thingy would be naught but a blapper mastermind, sans support for pets. I question how well this might play out. I'm sure the only way to make it work would be a beefed up inherent, and even then it's iffy. Pets die easy, and once pets are down, the mastermind is left with naught but their support powers. Without those, you have a weak blapper, probably with less attack due to pet balancing.|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
Blaster Ranged Sets with Mastermind Pet Sets
Dominator Attack Sets with Scrapper or Brute Defense Sets Mastermind Pet Sets with Scrapper Melee Sets |
Oh, and my suggestion? Melee/support. (All powers being modified towards PbAoE use, so that a melee/rad for instance would run their toggles around themselves)
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Definately that!
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Originally Posted by PoptartsNinja
[...] a sword/pistol "Swashbuckling Assault" set and slightly lowered the 'caps' on defenses (making them slightly squishier scrappers with more ranged options and AoE)
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I made it this far.|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
I hope that you developers are considering or better yet working on some new ATs for this game. The only ATs I really like are scrappers and blasters, and
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I love Scrappers, not so much Blasters, but I love a lot of other ATs. You not liking ATs isn't the dev's problem.
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What I find particularly amusing is, just because the devs *do* release new ATs, would the OP even play them?|
Originally Posted by Sigium
I made it this far.
I love Scrappers, not so much Blasters, but I love a lot of other ATs. You not liking ATs isn't the dev's problem. |
Only a Blaster is a blaster and only a Scrapper is a scrapper. Any additions will be made because they don't play like anything else, not because they play similarly to something existing.
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What are you guys talking about? You trying to say I've got a closed mind or something? I've tried all the ATs including Epic ATs both villain and heroside. I have a level 47 ice/storm controller who's fun on teams but not as much fun to solo. I have a level 40 mastermind and a level 50 brute. I had to run the brute to 50 mostly solo because I couldn't stand teams stealing my fury. I quit my Peacebringer at level 35 and my rad/rad defender at level 32. And a level 31 corruptor.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
What I find particularly amusing is, just because the devs *do* release new ATs, would the OP even play them?
Only a Blaster is a blaster and only a Scrapper is a scrapper. Any additions will be made because they don't play like anything else, not because they play similarly to something existing. |
I'm saying I want more AT choices because I've tried them all already and I strongly prefer blasters and scrappers. If you like all the ATs then great. But I don't. I'd lke some new choices.
We don't need more ATs, we have plenty. All the bases are covered.
We just need more, and more unique, powersets.
I'd like to see a low-damage mez set for melee sets that was mostly grapples (eg grabbing an enemy and gut-punching them for a few seconds) and throws etc.
Yes it would be immensely, unbelievably painful to design, but if you're going to work towards something ambitious it may as well be something good.
Mixing and matching existing sets in new combinations seems like a bad idea. We already have the bases covered and there are several cases where a particular AT is virtually superseded by another (Controllers vs Defenders for example) and adding more combinations of existing powersets would make that worse me thinks.
Personally I'd like to see more Epic ATs. Epic ATs can be designed with esoteric play styles from the ground up without needing to worry about making a large number of powersets for them (although obviously the devs could give them a wide range if they wanted to). Additionally it's a chance to expand the lore of the game in interesting ways. For example once Going Rogue comes out we'll have the option to start a character as unaligned in Preatoria, how about an EAT that has to start there? It gives some interesting story options (and avoids the devs having to release two EATs at the same time).
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No, that's not what they were saying at all. What they were saying is that if you only like two ATs now, there's no guarantee that you'd like any new ones that came out anyways.
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Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
What are you guys talking about? You trying to say I've got a closed mind or something? I've tried all the ATs including Epic ATs both villain and heroside. I have a level 47 ice/storm controller who's fun on teams but not as much fun to solo. I have a level 40 mastermind and a level 50 brute. I had to run the brute to 50 mostly solo because I couldn't stand teams stealing my fury. I quit my Peacebringer at level 35 and my rad/rad defender at level 32. And a level 31 corruptor.
I'm saying I want more AT choices because I've tried them all already and I strongly prefer blasters and scrappers. If you like all the ATs then great. But I don't. I'd lke some new choices. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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What Aett_Thorn said.|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
What are you guys talking about? You trying to say I've got a closed mind or something? I've tried all the ATs including Epic ATs both villain and heroside. I have a level 47 ice/storm controller who's fun on teams but not as much fun to solo. I have a level 40 mastermind and a level 50 brute. I had to run the brute to 50 mostly solo because I couldn't stand teams stealing my fury. I quit my Peacebringer at level 35 and my rad/rad defender at level 32. And a level 31 corruptor.
I'm saying I want more AT choices because I've tried them all already and I strongly prefer blasters and scrappers. If you like all the ATs then great. But I don't. I'd lke some new choices. |
But also, you seem to want more ATs because "I tried everything and I'm bored". That doesn't seem like a particularly good reason to me, especially because you haven't really tried everything.
Me, particularly, I've played everything but Hero EATs and I can't really play MMs higher than the teens. I'd still want a couple new ATs myself, not because I'm bored with what's available but because my melee Defender is crap. I need an AT that has good melee attacks and buff/debuff sets to pair with it.
Just my opinion tho but I am agreeing with you. Not on the ideas you posted particularly but with new ATs in general.
I would really love a Melee/Support or Support/Melee AT.
Sure you can fake it with Defenders and Corruptors, but it's not at all the same.
Both ATs get fairly low base damage (Defenders obviously moreso) due to both the force multiplying nature of their support sets, and because the devs have assigned a certain value of Range = Defense(Survivability) to them.
Playing a Defender of Corruptor in melee completely negates any potential surviability increase, so IMO an AT built around the ideas of not having that added protection would have a justified need for higher base damage.
Also, Melee sets tend to heavily favor Single Target damage. Where Blast sets generally have 2 or 3 Single target Damage powers (4 for Psi Blast) Melee sets generally have 4 or 5 (Exceptions being Spines with 3 and Electric which has 2 Single target, a single target that can "chain" to additional targets within a certain range and a melee AoE that deals twice as much damage to your primary(single) target as it does those around it).
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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1. And how do you know you'd have fun with these sets? Are you psychic and can predict the future of hypotheses? Have you consulted the oracles of Scrapper/Blasterdom on the issue? In fact, I'd think that some of these AT ideas are downright annoying.|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
What are you guys talking about? You trying to say I've got a closed mind or something? I've tried all the ATs including Epic ATs both villain and heroside. I have a level 47 ice/storm controller who's fun on teams but not as much fun to solo. I have a level 40 mastermind and a level 50 brute. I had to run the brute to 50 mostly solo because I couldn't stand teams stealing my fury. I quit my Peacebringer at level 35 and my rad/rad defender at level 32. And a level 31 corruptor.
I'm saying I want more AT choices because I've tried them all already and I strongly prefer blasters and scrappers. If you like all the ATs then great. But I don't. I'd lke some new choices. |
2. I have fun with the ATs that are already in the game, and between the GR expansion that will essentially allow Stalkers for Heroes Scrappers for Villains, etc, I say that we don't need any more ATs.
3. You're ALWAYS getting new choices. Shield Defense? Willpower? Dual Blades? All of these things are... Guess what? Power sets that you could use for your Scrapper! And for your Blaster? Psychic? Radiation? Have you tried playing any OTHER sets to 50 of a single AT, or do you think that one single set covers the entire Archetype?
I'll suggest it here again...
I'd love a Blaster Primary (Or Dominator Secondary...and maybe this one more)/Stalker Secondary AT with a Buff/Debuff/Pet/Utility Epic Power Pool.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
We most decidedly do NOT have all the bases covered, and it makes me sad whenever someone says we do. As others have pointed out, we lack things like Melee/Support (which I'd hate, but there you go), Assault/Defence, Blast/Summon and even a few of the set types that have been talked about here, but aren't in the game. Say, a type of summoning powerset that has henchmen who focus on support only, rather than on offence mostly, like Mastermind primaries do. Or a summon set that has only ONE summon it starts out with, but can upgrade it multiple times and provide it with different types of support, similar to what Beast Mastery Hunters can do in WoW.
There IS room for improvement and addition. It's not a question of whether we can add more ATs. It's a question of whether the developers are interested in footing the bill and putting in the time. They make the call whether or not it's worth it. Personally, though, I'd like to see 5 new ATs with Going Rogue. I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that I wouldn't like all (or even most) of them personally, but I can also guarantee that there will be fans of each and every one of them separately.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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When faced with such an erudite, polite and well reasoned post how can the Devs refuse? I'm sure we'll be getting new ATs by the month end.
Yes there is scope for new ATs as some have mentioned but for now I can't help feeling that many of the devs have something rather more urgent to attend to.
Thelonious Monk
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Ah ha! Some people agree with me!|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
We most decidedly do NOT have all the bases covered, and it makes me sad whenever someone says we do. As others have pointed out, we lack things like Melee/Support (which I'd hate, but there you go), Assault/Defence, Blast/Summon and even a few of the set types that have been talked about here, but aren't in the game. Say, a type of summoning powerset that has henchmen who focus on support only, rather than on offence mostly, like Mastermind primaries do. Or a summon set that has only ONE summon it starts out with, but can upgrade it multiple times and provide it with different types of support, similar to what Beast Mastery Hunters can do in WoW.
There IS room for improvement and addition. It's not a question of whether we can add more ATs. It's a question of whether the developers are interested in footing the bill and putting in the time. They make the call whether or not it's worth it. Personally, though, I'd like to see 5 new ATs with Going Rogue. I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that I wouldn't like all (or even most) of them personally, but I can also guarantee that there will be fans of each and every one of them separately. |
Also, in response to "How do you know you'd like the new AT?" my answer is that I strongly suspect I'd like any of the suggestion that I made. I'm telling you what I'd like so that's how I know I'd like it.
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Ok, pedantic discussion of an expression first |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
We most decidedly do NOT have all the bases covered, and it makes me sad whenever someone says we do. As others have pointed out, we lack things like Melee/Support (which I'd hate, but there you go), Assault/Defence, Blast/Summon and even a few of the set types that have been talked about here, but aren't in the game. Say, a type of summoning powerset that has henchmen who focus on support only, rather than on offence mostly, like Mastermind primaries do. Or a summon set that has only ONE summon it starts out with, but can upgrade it multiple times and provide it with different types of support, similar to what Beast Mastery Hunters can do in WoW.
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. We do have all the bases covered. Here's a nice definition of the origin of the expression:Quote:
| Cover my bases is a baseball expression. In baseball, you have three bases and home plate. The team that is in the field has to have a man at each base to catch the ball and make sure players on the opposing team can't get to that base safely and stay there. These players are covering the bases. |
To expand the expression, we have all of our bases covered, we just don't have all of the outfielders
.Obviously there are more combinations that can be made with the original powersets (you could probably even make a new Assault/Manipulation style set which combines aspects from two other sets). The question is do they provide a useful expansion to the range of play styles without rendering existing ATs obsolete?
Also regarding your suggestion on new types of pets. There is no reason those couldn't be done as new MM sets. The devs give the sets the same progression because they want to not because they have to (although balance wise it is probably useful).
EDIT: Ok it occurs to me I should add an example. You mention a Pet/Blast AT. Masterminds currently have an absolutely awful ranged damage modifier (they do about half Blaster damage). The problem is that if you make it with the current damage modifier it's pretty much useless compared to a regular Mastermind since the extra damage from the blast set would be useless when compared to the extra damage and mitigation of a buff set. Conversely if you upped the damage modifier then you run the risk of creating a class which has more damage than a blaster (mastermind + pets) and better survivability (bodyguard mode). You could nerf the pet's damage and increase the damage modifier but I can't really see that working out to well. A large part of being a mastermind is controlling the pets for maximum damage, if they don't do much damage why bother having them?
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I'd have to disagree. Giving Masterminds a set of Support oriented pets would completely alter their damage output, making them practically impossible to solo, which is a situation in which they currently shine.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Also regarding your suggestion on new types of pets. There is no reason those couldn't be done as new MM sets.
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Adding a set like that would be a radical deviation from the normal performance of the archetype.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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That's kind of a loaded argument, though. What's the point of having Scrappers, Brutes AND Tankers when they share the exact same powersets for the most part, under that logic? The answer is that their AT modifiers plus their inherents make the ATs sufficiently diverse. It's all well and good to guess how hard balancing such a thing would be, but we shouldn't really make the final step and claim it would be impossible or pointless, because ultimately neither I nor you are actually responsible for the balance of the thing.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
EDIT: Ok it occurs to me I should add an example. You mention a Pet/Blast AT. Masterminds currently have an absolutely awful ranged damage modifier (they do about half Blaster damage). The problem is that if you make it with the current damage modifier it's pretty much useless compared to a regular Mastermind since the extra damage from the blast set would be useless when compared to the extra damage and mitigation of a buff set. Conversely if you upped the damage modifier then you run the risk of creating a class which has more damage than a blaster (mastermind + pets) and better survivability (bodyguard mode). You could nerf the pet's damage and increase the damage modifier but I can't really see that working out to well. A large part of being a mastermind is controlling the pets for maximum damage, if they don't do much damage why bother having them?
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And you very much could not make a Mastermind set with just a single pet any more so than you could make a Stalker set without an Assassin's Strike. All the Mastermind sets have a very rigidly designed structure, with only the henchmen being different between them. Well, that and a single power. But each Mastermind set has three summons, three attacks, two upgrades and one "other" power. It's what a "Henchman" set is.
The question with new ATs doesn't come down to filling in any imaginary roles (seriously, let's get away from the tank, healer, damage dealer trio), but rather about creating character frameworks that are new and interesting to play. There are still a lot of these left to add, should the developers be so inclined.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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My comment was more directed at the MM with one more powerful pet than the MM with support pets since I think a powerset focusing on support pets would be problematic without a major overhaul of pet AI since support powers tend to require significant care in their application. But even for the support pet I tend to disagree with your disagreement. A MM with support oriented pets would be doable. The devs would simply need to reduce the number of pet related powers in the powerset (say 3 max), and add in more blasts (so a total of 6 attacks). You'd end up with something akin to a defender with weaker attacks but a wider selection of buffs (and the weaker attacks can be compensated for by either by just giivng the atttacks a higher than correct base damage or [preferably] designing the pets around themes that include buffing damage or debuffing resistance).|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
I'd have to disagree. Giving Masterminds a set of Support oriented pets would completely alter their damage output, making them practically impossible to solo, which is a situation in which they currently shine.
Adding a set like that would be a radical deviation from the normal performance of the archetype. |
Would it solo as well as a traditional Mastermind? Probably not, but look at defenders, they have a very wide range in how well different powersets solo.
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Honestly, I wouldn't particularly care if the devs decided to reduce the number of melee ATs (but then I don't particularly enjoy playing any of them). From a group recruitment point of view I pretty much break the ATs down into Damage (Melee), Damage (Ranged) and Support. The only one that I actually focus on recruiting is Support, for the others I'll take whomever shows up in response to announcements in Globals or Broadcast. I like at least one Melee AT just because the players tend to be more comfortable taking point but if I don't get one I'll take point myself.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's kind of a loaded argument, though. What's the point of having Scrappers, Brutes AND Tankers when they share the exact same powersets for the most part, under that logic? The answer is that their AT modifiers plus their inherents make the ATs sufficiently diverse. It's all well and good to guess how hard balancing such a thing would be, but we shouldn't really make the final step and claim it would be impossible or pointless, because ultimately neither I nor you are actually responsible for the balance of the thing.
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| And you very much could not make a Mastermind set with just a single pet any more so than you could make a Stalker set without an Assassin's Strike. All the Mastermind sets have a very rigidly designed structure, with only the henchmen being different between them. Well, that and a single power. But each Mastermind set has three summons, three attacks, two upgrades and one "other" power. It's what a "Henchman" set is. |
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| The question with new ATs doesn't come down to filling in any imaginary roles (seriously, let's get away from the tank, healer, damage dealer trio), but rather about creating character frameworks that are new and interesting to play. There are still a lot of these left to add, should the developers be so inclined. |
Yeah, I would rather have some new EATS than ATs... Like I`ve read somewhere that once there where talks about Coralax being an EAT. That would be kind of nice. An Incarnate EAT maybe? That would be just awesome... I would like to see something Unique, rather than a combination of otehr ATs as people have already said above.
"Looks can be deceiving" - Statesman (in Memoriam)
I hope that you developers are considering or better yet working on some new ATs for this game. The only ATs I really like are scrappers and blasters, and I've played all of the sets for those ATs. I think you could make some new ATs using the existing powersets. I'll throw out a few suggestions that I think would be fun. Some balancing would be required of course.
Blaster Ranged Sets with Mastermind Pet Sets
Dominator Attack Sets with Scrapper or Brute Defense Sets
Mastermind Pet Sets with Scrapper Melee Sets