Everybodies Kung Fu Fighting!

to muddle things further...wasnt Lois ones taken to the miniture city with a red sun and gained super powers akin to her boy toy?

Except when he does.

Who said anything about the sun?

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying here. I agree that the common-sensical meaning of "origin" is "the way you got your powers", and that Superman almost certainly wasn't the subject of a Scientific experiment. (Though there are probably alternate-universe Supermen who were intended to be guinea pigs/eventual vanguards of a Kryptonian invasion.)

But that is not the mechanical effect Origins have in-game. Origins have nothing to do with "how you got your powers", aside from your little dinky temp ranged thingy. They affect how your powers change - specifically, what Enhancements you can slot into them.

Practically speaking, a martial artist who becomes partially fused with a mountain god and gains super ice powers, but returns to his old master to learn how apply his old training to his new capabilities, is Natural "origin". He got his powers through a process that would be considered Magical, but expands them through Natural training.

if you go by the enhacments all Naturals are Tibitan munks trained by army sargents. There is nothing else by military training and monk chi mastery in natural. I doubt all naturals are like that.

Really I think it's a pointless effort. We already showed with Positron that it doesn't really matter what your interpretation of a character's origin is. All that matters is what the person who made the character says. We could say he's mutant or science, but if Posi says he's tech... that means he's tech! vv

Since the guy who invented Superman isn't here to tell us what origin he'd be in the CoH universe, there's no right answer. We can back-and-forth over it and try to rationalize an origin, but the origins as set up are opinions more than fact.

I could take a fire demon and rationalize it as either natural or magic depending on what I feel like, and both would be right. There are a lot of times and places where multiple origins would fit the bill, and a lot of room for overlap. CoH's system isn't set up to handle some of the more complicated origin stories.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

According to Sister Psyche, there were no mutants before the splitting of the atom in whatever year that was. That is what caused ALL mutants to exist. I take solace in thinking she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about, but it's in her explanation. Positron believes that technology is more than just, you know, technology. You're not just smart enough to know stuff, you're linked with all the other technologists and have the super power to bend technology to your will or some such nonsense. Which would have made ancient humans all super heroes, what with all the technological inventions since the dawn of time. But, of course, Tarikoss says humans invented magic and Tielekku learned it from them, while War Witch says Tielekku invented magic and taught it to the humans, so obviously one of them has to be wrong. If one of the Origin of Powers arc contacts is wrong, then it puts ALL of them under suspicion.

Basically, if you believe the contacts, the opening of the box covers EVERYONE. Even people who don't actually HAVE super powers. If you dismiss the contacts, you basically ignore the storyline. And, frankly, it is so out of place in this game that I've chosen to just pretend it isn't even there.

Fair enough.

I've called Neathergoat insolent so many times and I've done the same thing to him enough to where I suspect we just learned to get along and not step on each other's toes. He could, of course, drop by and totally contradict me.

They didn't NEED an explanation for powerset proliferation any more than they need an explanation for why we have unlockable weapons. It wasn't necessary, and while I appreciate the little care and attention that goes into these things, I'd rather they weren't as disruptive as ret-conning the backstories of half your playerbase. To say that the explanation was used to open more powersets is entirely backwards, as well. Powerset proliferation was a business decision first and foremost, with the Origin of Powers arc used as an explanation for it. The arc didn't spawn the proliferation. The proliferation spawned the arc.

And what they could do if they took the arc seriously is start giving us horribly one-sided origin stories that our characters are forced to take as "great powers" fiddle with the origins at their source. They could put us through an arc that depowers us, write descriptions that define how our powers work (and get it wrong every time) or even limit our costume selection, or at the very least limit new costumes to specific origins. Bad ideas all around, yet all plausible with a serious reading of the meaning of the origins.

It's better that we are able to ignore it if we want. If you like the story, then by all means, write off of it. They're your characters and you're free to do with them as you please. As long as the arc stays ignorable and it doesn't try to write over MY characters, I will have no complaint. Really, though, I just hate railroading writing that assumes. So, so many entry messages suck like this.

"You crack your knuckles and slick back your hair." Err... I don't have hair. Or knuckles.

"You feel so sad for the poor girl." No I don't! She deserved it!

"You don't want the full wrath of Arachnos on your head." Yes I do! They couldn't hurt me for 40 levels, they can't hurt me now! Curse you, bad writing!

"It smells like Trolls. You hate the smell of Trolls!" I do? That's news to me. I always felt they smelled like roses and butterflies.

See, THIS is what I want none of. I've said this to more than a few Architect writers - whenever you start a sentence with "You think" or "You feel" or "You probably," just stop, backspace over it and re-write. Write YOUR story, don't assume to be writing for other people.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Like, say, Peacebringers.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

All the SOs for natural are "training." They may be overly specific, like how the gadget DOs have you strapping grenades to your sword, but the point is you get better by training. If you don't just get really good with your powers through instant gratification granted by magic, science, technology, or mutation, how else do you get better at your powers than by training and practicing?

What else would a Peacebringer do to get better attuned with their abilities other than train and practice with them? Maybe they aren't running drills with Lieutenant Dan or training as a pupil under Jackie Chan, but you don't become strong and fast without one of those origins doing something to you.

Natural says to me that "I didn't get handed my powers; I had to work for them." Maybe you can pick up a gun and be lethal, same as a Peacebringer can naturally throw some energy around. But to be truly good at it, you have to TRAIN.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispari All the SOs for natural are "training." They may be overly specific, like how the gadget DOs have you strapping grenades to your sword, but the point is you get better by training. If you don't just get really good with your powers through instant gratification granted by magic, science, technology, or mutation, how else do you get better at your powers than by training and practicing? What else would a Peacebringer do to get better attuned with their abilities other than train and practice with them? Maybe they aren't running drills with Lieutenant Dan or training as a pupil under Jackie Chan, but you don't become strong and fast without one of those origins doing something to you. Natural says to me that "I didn't get handed my powers; I had to work for them." Maybe you can pick up a gun and be lethal, same as a Peacebringer can naturally throw some energy around. But to be truly good at it, you have to TRAIN.

Actually, Natural has two meanings in this game, at least to me:

1. I did not get handed any supernatural powers. I had to work with what I had to gain my far-above-average skills.

2. I did not get handed any "supernatural" powers; since this stuff is considered natural in where I come from (i.e. an alien with relatively supernatural powers, like a Peacebringer, or even Rikti).

Don't mind me if this reply is irrelevant to the discussion. I just read Dispari's post and responded!

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Add in "and hardened on DA MEAN STREETZ". There are several "back alley" natural SOs, though mostly for things that nobody uses like knockbacks and to-hit debuffs.

The default assumption for Peacebringers is that they're joined with human hosts, isn't it?

Seen that way it does reflect the difference between Peacebringers and Warshades. Peacebringers unlock more of their potential through the conventional training of their host body, while Warshades "have to resort to" experimental manipulation to get the same effect.

True, though...

Whether we like to admit it or have it be canon or not, we don't start off at max power. We don't get to be Superman who just has an on-switch and immediately is at his max potential right out of the box, with no training. We DO improve over time. And unless you have gadgets, are a mutant, were in a lab accident, or had someone wave a magic wand at you, the only way for your powers to improve is for you to practice using them.

Most people will train regardless. Tech people would have to practice using their stuff, especially if it's something complicated like a suit. Magic people probably have to use the magic a lot to get used to it. For me, natural means they trained to get where they are, without those other influences. Ironman practices using his gear, but no amount of training sans technology would allow him to shoot missiles from his shoulder and block grenades with his forearm.

You can start off as a Peacebringer who IS an alien that has exotic powers naturally. But unless you practice and work at it, you're gonna be a pretty boring and weak level 1 PB with one attack.

Though, enhancements are a pretty weak system to try and tack canon onto, considering everyone can use TOs, but only naturals can use natural SOs, even though they're basically the same thing. And many of the tech-related things are far too specific to make sense most of the time.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

oh so EVERY human natural is a Shinobi Master trained by the US Military while dodging the mean streets of Paragon as a kid?

Every single one? cause that's what my enhancements say i am...

Yes. And every magic user worships and deals with magical deities, and every tech user injects themselves with nanites and throws grenades every time they attack. Don't put too much faith in enhancements. You'd be hard-pressed to make them make sense most of the time on just about ANY character.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

And every science character was dipped in the periodic table and the electromagnetic spectrum simultaneously, and every mutant has awakened the catalyst to evolution.

I'm not sure if I like putting on 15 gauntlets more than implanting 17 eyes into my skull.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

yeah compared to that training 16 times with a ancheint tibitan ninja master is pretty tame

What about wearing 12 rings, 18 earrings, carrying around two goblets, three candles, two belts, and a cup?

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Something like this?

*snicker* Two goblets, one cup... >_>

...

Alright, who snuck drugs into my sandwich at lunchtime?

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

I meant in terms of the origin of the Superman character or his powers. I will concede that Superman Red and Superman Blue might both be considered science-origin entities at least in part.


That's an interesting perspective. You're suggesting that we ignore the actual definition for Origin that the game presents to the players, because that textual definition has no game mechanical consequence, but you're willing to look at the textual descriptions of the enhancements and consider them definitive, even though they too have no game mechanical consequences.

In other words: Natural Origin says your powers are intrinsic to yourself, we can ignore. Natural Origin Enhancement says monk trained you on a mountain top to increase hold duration, that we cannot ignore? On its face, I cannot consider this argument valid because its inconsistent in how it treats the in-game information. It cherry picks.

Also, it doesn't cherry pick very well: Natural Origin SOs don't say how you were trained. You could have simply trained yourself, which certainly Superman has done. In terms of his core abilities, the classic iteration of Superman best matches someone with innate abilities not the result of any external magic, scientific experiment, mutation, or technological enhancement, and were simply improved by learning and practice.

This perspective is also unusual in that it redefines "origin" to be "anything which can change your powers *long after* your character is created. In other words, this line of thought states that anyone that goes through the respec trial and executes a respec is automatically either Science or Mutation origins, the only two consistent with being exposed to radiation and having your powers significantly altered.

There has to be significant weight placed on the *origin* of your powers to determine what origin you are. My natural MA/SR doesn't become technology origin because she gains a nemesis staff: that's ancillary to her primary super abilities, and also ancillary to her actual origin as a superhero.

I would say the only time a downstream act can redefine origin is when its dramatic enough to redefine the character itself. If the character simply isn't the same character anymore because of that change, you could argue that that event was the "origin" of the new character, and the metaphorical "death" of the old one. Jean Grey might have been a mutant with telepathic powers, but arguably once she became the Phoenix she was effectively a completely different superhero with a completely different origin (before all the retcons). Short of that, though, I don't think its reasonable to suggest that acts you take downstream can affect your origin. To do so suggests that origin is fluid, and that contradicts the intended meaning of "origin."

Lets apply this to an example. Daredevil gets hit by chemicals, gains supersenses. Acknowledging that this event has been interpreted in different ways, lets just assume for now that this is a Science origin. The important fact is that he gained these senses by one method. He then decides much later to fight crime with these senses, and he makes his billy club, clearly a technological invention. The question is: is that billy club a part of his origin, or a *consequence* of his origin. In this case, I would say the origin of his "powers" was the event that gave him his senses. The billy club is only a tool he made to augment those senses. While you could make the case that Daredevil is Science/Tech dual origin, I don't think that argument has much substance to it. Daredevil is still Daredevil even without that tool. Murdock decided to become Daredevil (at least in concept) before making that tool. Ergo, its not a part of his *origin*. It could be considered part of his *development* but that's a different thing.

Nolan's Batman is also a case where there is very heavy use of "natural" origin abilities and technology. In this case I think a case could be made both ways, although I think the fact that Wayne had already decided to become a "superhero" when he returned to Gotham, and would have done so with or without the technological trappings available to him, suggests that the origin of the Batman was natural, and the technology only a set of tools layered on top.

Although there is some grey area here, I think its obvious that the intent of "origin" in City of Heroes was not to be a game mechanical contrivance, but to represent the event that grants super abilities to the character. Everything past that point has to bent to the requirements of MMOs and *is* colored by being at least in part a game mechanical contrivance, and the technical mechanics of those requirements may not perfectly parallel the fictional directives of the genre.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Then you're a Mutant, since that "ability" was what lead to your powers.

The powers thing is iffy, though. You still might just get terminal magical nanite cancer.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Arcana, I agree with your general argument, but this paragraph in particular has a big hole in it. Batman may have decided to become a super hero, and would have become one technology or no technology, but in either case, the origin of his powers would have been VASTLY different. Consider a few examples:

Batman has only him body to rely on, so he trains in martial arts, builds up his body and gets himself only very basic tools to work with. He's a super hero, but he is decidedly Natural.

Batman gets a brainwave and develops staggering futuristic technology. He builds himself an anime cyber ninja suit complete with all sorts of gadgets and gizmos. He's still Batman, but his origin is much more heavily Technology.

Batman discovers an old crypt in his bat cave and finds an amulet that makes him super strong, super fast and nigh-on invulnerable as long as he has the will to control it. He's still Batman, but he is very much Magic.

What I have a problem with here is that we're putting undue impetus on intent and development, sometimes to the exclusion of the NATURE of the actual powers. I don't believe the question is which came first or which started it all or how the character feels, so much as the much simpler "is it the tools or the man who uses them that makes the hero. Take away Batman's batarangs and he'll still be able to outsmart his foes even with more spartan methods. Take away Iron Man's armour, and he's helpless (as his stories prove time and time again).

So, yes, I agree with your conclusion, with the above caveat.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Really I think just about everyone has the "ability" to be bitten by a radioactive robot genie.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.