Combine Hero & Villain Markets
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-09 24:47 in Suggestions and Ideas
It's a deliberate design choice, and that's all I'm going to say due to the can of worms these sorts of posts open.
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There is no item which you can sell on the market which cannot be used by both Heroes and Villains. There are some things which are more commonly useful for one side or the other: Pet Damage IOs, for instance, tend to be more expensive redside than blue, because only Controllers can use them blueside, and only in one power (Edit: I think Phantom Army can take Pet Damage and/or Recharge Intensive Pet Damage, so Illusion Controllers would have 2 powers they could use), while Dominators can use them as much as Controllers, Masterminds can use them in 3-4 powers depending on their primary, and most villains can get a pet from their Patron.
There is also no technical restriction preventing the markets from being the same thing (well, it's possible there is a technical limitation now, after the markets have already been implemented, but there was no technical reason when they first developed the markets). The reason we've been given is the vast disparity between the amount of inf available blueside and redside, since CoH was out for several years (and without very many inf sinks) before CoV came out. To this I say: phooey. While I'm sure there's a difference in the amount of inf on each side, a merged market is probably the most efficient way to balance that difference out. While a villain might not be able to buy a high-ticket item from a hero at the higher hero price, a villain can certainly sell a high-ticket item to a hero for the higher hero price to make money, and that money will then be transferred from hero to villain. (Additionally, not all things are more expensive blueside than redside, and not all heroes can outbid villains)
It would also be a great plot hook. Have you ever looked behind Wentworth's in Talos Island? Have you noticed the truck model there? It's suspiciously similar to the truck that the Black Market sells things out of...
However, considering they've said for GR that Rogues (Villains on the path of going good, but not yet Heroes) can access Paragon City but not Wentworth's, and Vigilantes (Heroes on the path of going bad, but not yet Villains) can access the Rogue Islands but no the Black Market, I don't think this will happen soon. It certainly won't be happening for Going Rogue.
On the other hand, IIRC, Positron has stated that they'd consider merging the markets once the imbalance between Hero and Villain inf levels becomes small enough. I've got no idea what "small enough" is, whether "consider" means "do", or how the imbalance is going to be reduced without a merger, but there you have it.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Merge the bloody markets already.
I do think it would be a better thing to have the markets merged. There is 'common' salvage going for 1mil on the redside market, while others go for 1k. The imbalance of rares is similar. Its mad.
IC reasoning? Maybe Black Market gets someone legal to fence their stuff to the good guys? And how hard would it be for someone to raid WW storehouses? Theres enough super-powered bads wandering around.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
Merge the bloody markets already.
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no need to say more
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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this, yet again.
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Originally Posted by Vega
no need to say more
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I think the devs see something that we dont see. The claim seems to be that the devs are concerned over heros having more inf the villains.
If thats the case, I think the devs may be looking at some sort of a influence per capita number and not necessarily market prices. Obviouslly, in the real world, income per capita has alot to do with the buying power of a country. Last I checked (Its been a while) the BM had shortages. They may be concerned that applying those shortages(demand) to hero supply may result in price spikes that the average Villain can't keep up with.
I'd like to see a market merge as well and I have no strong opinions on why/why not. Just trying to figure out what number the devs are basing this decision on.
Or simply go the WoW route and have the faction markets remain separate and introduce (gee in maybe the GR expansion) a 3rd party "neutral" marketplace where the two can meet.
Call it "Commerce-Net" where heroes and villians alike can list things "online" for sale or purchase. (not unlike the shiny and shadier sides of E-bay)
I'm reading a book right now called One Hundred Essential Things You Didn't Know You Didn't Know: Math Explains Your World, by John Barrow. It's a collection of short essays by a mathematician about math in every day life.
One example is about collectible cards. Suppose there are 50 cards, and you want one of each. If you buy one, then you have a 0/50 chance of getting one you already have, and a 50/50 chance of getting one you don't already have. When you buy your second card, there is a 1/50 chance you already have it. When you buy a third card, there is a 2/50 chance you already have it, and so on.
When you are trying to get that last card for your set, the odds are 49/50 that any card you get will be one you already have. In the end, you need to buy something like 225 cards on average in order to get a full set of 50.
Where it gets interesting is what happens if you and a friend are both collecting, and you swap with each other when you get duplicates. Common sense says that you and your friend will be able to get complete sets more quickly if you cooperate than if you each build a collection in isolation. It's a savings of 78 cards each, according to Barrow. With more friends you save more cards.
Collecting salvage and recipes is more complicated of course, but the same principle should apply: trying to IO a character using nothing but your own drops is crazy hard. Being able to swap with other players makes it easier. Adding more people to the pool of folks who are swapping items should make it easier still.
Now, if I followed the math correctly (and the odds of that aren't great 
) then the number of cards you save when you swap with friends goes up by a smaller and smaller amount as you add more friends, so eventually the addition of friends to trade with doesn't help any more. I have a feeling we're not at that point with our markets. Merging the markets will probably make it easier for people to get stuff.
Sounds good to me.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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Originally Posted by alpha_zulu
merge the bloody markets already.
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Also a fascinating note, apparently if you write a post where all non-quoted text is in caps then the forum converts it to lower case, this sentence was added to prevent QFT from becoming qft.
Wow, and here I thought Halloween was over, yet here comes another dead horse.
And I shall not go into the points for and against it again, as everyone who can search can find them. Just:
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That is no advantage for villains at all. So now villains can sell at hero prices? Well so can heroes. How does it make villains richer than heroes?|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
To this I say: phooey. While I'm sure there's a difference in the amount of inf on each side, a merged market is probably the most efficient way to balance that difference out. While a villain might not be able to buy a high-ticket item from a hero at the higher hero price, a villain can certainly sell a high-ticket item to a hero for the higher hero price to make money, and that money will then be transferred from hero to villain. ...
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As long as one side gains more Inf per time or per level, it will have an advantage over the other when markets are merged. And do we really want "They outbid us for stuff all the time!" to be added to the "The other side is totally overpowered!" complainings?
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Originally Posted by peterpeter
collectible cards. Collecting salvage and recipes is more complicated of course, but the same principle should apply: trying to IO a character using nothing but your own drops is crazy hard. Being able to swap with other players makes it easier. Adding more people to the pool of folks who are swapping items should make it easier still.
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Sure there are advantages for Villains. Hero side has a much larger supply of items which means that prices tend to be more stable and for rarer items (i.e. some of the level 30 merit IOs) there is actually stock available for purchase.|
Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
That is no advantage for villains at all. So now villains can sell at hero prices? Well so can heroes. How does it make villains richer than heroes?
As long as one side gains more Inf per time or per level, it will have an advantage over the other when markets are merged. And do we really want "They outbid us for stuff all the time!" to be added to the "The other side is totally overpowered!" complainings? |
As for your second point, I'm going to call BS on that one. I've yet to see any evidence that one side has a naturally greater earning power on a per character basis. Sure some particular sets (Fire/Kin Controllers and several Brute builds come to mind) have greater earning power due to being optimized for farming inf/drops but I don't think either side has a monopoly on good farming builds. Yes Heroes do have a higher overall earning rate due to the fact that there are more of them but for the purposes of a merged market all that really matters is the earning rates of individuals.
The one place that heroes might have a better earning rate is in merits due to the wider selection of TFs/Story Arcs available to them but even there I'd like some evidence that it actually makes a difference especially considering that the most popular TF is the ITF which is available to both Heroes and Villains.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
Merge the bloody markets already.
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Redside View: It would certainly be nice to have a larger supply from which to buy from, since certain items often have a supply of zero. If heroside truly has more $Inf, then it will trickle over through sales and equalize.
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You don't need any in-character reason at all. Let me ask you this question: if the markets were merged tomorrow with no patch notes, would you be able to tell? And if you began to suspect, would you have an in-character way to verify that? As long as all the times are the same between sides, the only way to tell if the markets are merged or not is out-of-character.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
IC reasoning? Maybe Black Market gets someone legal to fence their stuff to the good guys? And how hard would it be for someone to raid WW storehouses? Theres enough super-powered bads wandering around.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Villain supply is significantly lower than hero supply, which artificially raises prices while simultaneously reducing the window of opportunity to get rich. Opening the hero market to villains would both allow them to get richer than they are now, as well as allow them to tap into a more stable, more abundant supply of at least the basic stuff. The only basic items (common recipes and common salvage) that are expensive are the ones in short supply. The ones with abundant supply may spike in price from time to time, but they also drop in price fairly often, so it's easy enough to just leave outstanding bids and wait for a price drop. With a much lower supply, prices don't drop as easily.
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Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
I really dont think that one side usually sits on a mountain of recipes that the other side badly needs. Most high in demand IO sets are for very basic things like melee or ranged damage, defense or resistance, stuff that both sides needs just as much. And usually there are lots of people bidding on such things and none selling. So merging the sides surely wont have a big effect like that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It doesn't make Villains richer than Heroes. It makes Heroes slightly poorer than they were, and Villains slightly richer, and they meet in the middle. That's the point.|
Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
So now villains can sell at hero prices? Well so can heroes. How does it make villains richer than heroes?
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The problem with a market merge, so say the devs, is that Heroes overall have more money than Villains do. Yet since both sides have approximately equal earning potential and approximately equal inf sinks, that difference stems from two sources: the larger number of Hero characters, and the Hero characters that have been around longer than CoV has.
There is no one solution to equalizing the number of characters on each side; it just can't be done. There are people who simply don't like the Rogue Isles, or don't like Villains, or like their Heroes too much to play something else. It is theoretically possible that redside could be made more enticing than it currently is which would equalize the numbers, but it's extremely unlikely.
There is no solution to Hero characters that are older than CoV, other than deleting them outright, which would understandably make many players mad.
Since the two causes for inf disparity can't be resolved themselves, the inf disparity can only be resolved in some other way. One way is to allow for transfer of inf between sides, acting as an economic siphon to equalize the inf totals. One way to allow for that transfer is to merge the markets.
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Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
As long as one side gains more Inf per time or per level, it will have an advantage over the other when markets are merged.
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After a market merge, there will be some instability for a time as the two sides begin to equalize. But eventually, they will equalize, and the markets will stabilize. To paraphrase Smurphy on the subject of merging the markets: flippers want unstable prices, so that they can make greater profit. With the two markets split, they are less stable than they would be merged. So, the flippers and ebil marketeers should want the markets to stay separate. Other people, those who want a stable market with stable prices, should prefer a merged market.
Assume Villain prices are lower than Hero prices, and the average Villain has less inf to their name than the average Hero (this is not exactly true, but run with it for the example). With split markets, these facts will remain true indefinitely, but it doesn't really matter, because the price difference is proportional to the wealth difference, so the Hero and Villain are able to obtain the same stuff via the markets.
When the markets merge, initially, the Heroes will constantly outbid the Villains. The Villain buyers won't be getting stuff, but the Villains sellers will be getting the Heroes' money. The Hero buyers will be getting exactly what they want (as they already were), but the Hero sellers will be undercut by the Villains, who had set lower prices.
This will siphon some inf from Heroes to Villains, partially equalizing the overall wealth of the two sides. A new selling point will be reached between the buyers and sellers of each side, which will be somewhat stable, and more likely than not it will be between the original selling points from when the markets were merged. At this point, the inf flow from Heroes to Villains will slow, because some Heroes are able to sell their wares as well. But Villain sellers (who got inf from Hero buyers) and particularly rich Villains will also be able to meet this new selling point, so Villains will begin getting stuff again, and a portion of the Villain inf will transfer to Heroes.
This process will repeat a few times, and will probably last a month or two (my personal estimation) before the two sides become approximately equal. And then, not only are the Villains richer, the Heroes who had too much money to know what to do with it poorer, but both sides also get an increased supply to meet their existing demand. The buyers who were not generally rich either get richer than they would have otherwise, or have lower price points they need to buy at due to increased competition among the sellers.
There are two groups who lose out on a market merge: the people who make money by flipping, and impatient buyers during the instability period.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I know we don't really need an IC reason. I thought I might as well provide one though, for the one person who doesn't, for some reason, like the idea and goes "It doesn't make IC sense!"|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You don't need any in-character reason at all. Let me ask you this question: if the markets were merged tomorrow with no patch notes, would you be able to tell? And if you began to suspect, would you have an in-character way to verify that? As long as all the times are the same between sides, the only way to tell if the markets are merged or not is out-of-character.
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Well, yes it can, actually.
Merge 'em, please. This is from someone playing mostly redside. I am sick to death of the piddly stock.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Of course, as I mentioned earlier in the thread: Based on the information so far released for GR, the markets WILL NOT be merged by the time GR rolls around |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Merge 'em, please.
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Beyond that is still up in the air, of course
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I never said there would be no advantages at all. That sure is fine IF both sides gain the same amount of inf. (and drops)|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Sure there are advantages for Villains. Hero side has a much larger supply of items which means that prices tend to be more stable and for rarer items (i.e. some of the level 30 merit IOs) there is actually stock available for purchase.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
As for your second point, I'm going to call BS on that one. I've yet to see any evidence that one side has a naturally greater earning power on a per character basis. Sure some particular sets (Fire/Kin Controllers and several Brute builds come to mind) have greater earning power due to being optimized for farming inf/drops but I don't think either side has a monopoly on good farming builds. Yes Heroes do have a higher overall earning rate due to the fact that there are more of them but for the purposes of a merged market all that really matters is the earning rates of individuals.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The one place that heroes might have a better earning rate is in merits due to the wider selection of TFs/Story Arcs available to them but even there I'd like some evidence that it actually makes a difference especially considering that the most popular TF is the ITF which is available to both Heroes and Villains.
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I never said there provenly ARE differences. Yet there can easily be due to other kinds of critters easily available, different mission structure, other TFs, inf gains for saving people on the street, ... and I have yet to see evidence there are not.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
It doesn't make Villains richer than Heroes. It makes Heroes slightly poorer than they were, and Villains slightly richer, and they meet in the middle. That's the point.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
One side doesn't gain more inf per level or per time. Heroes just have more characters and older characters. Create a Hero and a Villain character (preferably with comparable builds to try and negate extra variables), and level them to 50 without using their respective markets or selling/trading with other players. Both will reach 50 in approximately the same amount of time, and both will have the approximately the same amount of inf. The issue isn't per level or per unit of time, it's per side.
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Again, I dont say there ARE notable differences, but I'd like (the devs) to have clear proof there are not before doing anything possibly game breaking like this. Much better than merging the markets easy-going-ly and afterwards realizing things go wrong now and having to tweak tons of stuff to balance something that was hardly an issue before.
And sadly I dont have time to level two as-representative-as-possible characters to 50 with as-representative-as-possible content (and better once more still with as-inf-gaining-as-possible too) and note down how much inf and what drops they got. Even though with the new levelling speed that shouldnt take more than a week or two anymore.
Merge them.
But as far as the reason they are not merged...Influence transfers. At one point they were merged and the players used it to tranfer influence from blue to red.
Which really shouldn't matter. Shared slots at a bank are a good thing. But we'll never see this feature either.
Every time a Market thread comes up that says Heroes have more blah blah blah, This post pops up in my mind.
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If Villains are already paying more for things than heroes are for the same item, how exactly would we not be able to compete? Heck, had they done it earlier, there would be fewer heroes that got rich by selling arcane salvage.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
Not only that, but the good stuff is, for the most part, more expensive Villainside.
Smurphy posted this in this thread:  It's really bad below level 50. Villains have a horrible supply of pre-50 items. It's been like this for a long time. The notion that Villains will suffer from a merger boggles my mind after playing both sides, and being able to outfit my heroes for less, and in less time. |
I just did a quick check on two items that I need.
Numina +recovery (recipe) 250,000,000 at level 30 Villain side (last sale)
Numina +recovery (recipe) 117,500,001 at level 30 Hero side (last sale)
Crafted Blessing of the Zephyr +KB protection 100,000,000 at level 10 Villain side (last sale)
Crafted Blessing of the Zephyr +KB protection 50,000,000 at level 10 Hero side (last sale)
I really don't know how I would be able to outfit my characters paying almost half of what I do now. I would probably lose my mind
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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That still wouldn't address the per capita inf issue that JohnX posited.
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Originally Posted by MR5M1TH
Or simply go the WoW route and have the faction markets remain separate and introduce (gee in maybe the GR expansion) a 3rd party "neutral" marketplace where the two can meet.
Call it "Commerce-Net" where heroes and villians alike can list things "online" for sale or purchase. (not unlike the shiny and shadier sides of E-bay) |
@Texarkana
@Thexder
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You can't reasonably draw that conclusion. You're assuming that all Villains can compete with all heroes. Look at the graphic you quoted. The number of villains bidding and selling are mostly smaller even though most prices are inflated. The # of bidders might be a reflection of the population size, sure, but it throws enough doubt out there to make your conclusion weak.
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Originally Posted by Vega
Every time a Market thread comes up that says Heroes have more blah blah blah, This post pops up in my mind.
If Villains are already paying more for things than heroes are for the same item, how exactly would we not be able to compete? Heck, had they done it earlier, there would be fewer heroes that got rich by selling arcane salvage. I just did a quick check on two items that I need. Numina +recovery (recipe) 250,000,000 at level 30 Villain side (last sale) Numina +recovery (recipe) 117,500,001 at level 30 Hero side (last sale) Crafted Blessing of the Zephyr +KB protection 100,000,000 at level 10 Villain side (last sale) Crafted Blessing of the Zephyr +KB protection 50,000,000 at level 10 Hero side (last sale) I really don't know how I would be able to outfit my characters paying almost half of what I do now. I would probably lose my mind |
@Texarkana
@Thexder
A conclusion we can draw from that though is for the items examined Villains are either paying more than heroes or the prices are fairly close.
Also for certain items a potential merged market is superior to the current
Look at the Crushing Impact
Hero Price 5 mil _________ Vil Price 3mil-6mil
Bids 27 ________________ Bids 0
For Sale 11_____________ For Sale 23
If these were combined there would be
27 Bids with 34 for sale
I think it's a fair guess that some of the villain ones are in the 3 mil price
these would probably be sold instantly to heroes bidding at the hero price of 5 mil. So we've just sent 5 mil from heroes to villains probably several times over.
This won't be true in all cases in fact several of the Io's shown would actually transfer inf from villains to heroes, however the Villains would be gaining Purples,Miracles and LOTG's
Ahem,...I placed a thread in the Markets & Inventions section wanting to know if the Hero and Villain markets are combined. From what others have said and to my surprise they are not. Some say, Villains cannot use some enhancements designed for Hero's and vice versa. That's okay, then make those purchasable items grayed out so they cannot be purchased if they cannot get the item(s). I am pretty sure that a large majority of items CAN be bought by both sides versus items that cannot be purchased.
Here's the deal, having a combined market will not only make the buys and sells move better, it will make the game that much more enjoyable knowing if you plopped down a Hamidon Goo for 2mill you know that BOTH sides of the market can have access to this salvage item and thus have a greater chance of selling your salvage or other item(s).
I have this gut feeling that the red/Villain side is much more stagnate for market transactions and thus, it is much harder to get stuff to move.
I am also pretty sure I am not the first one to post this here. Maybe there is an issue with the coding to get the Villain side and Hero sides to interact via the market, who knows? I am not a computer programmer or MMO game designer. I only like to think in logical terms and having ONE combined market makes the best "logical" sense. I would really like to hear both sides to this, the pros and cons. Personally, I cannot think of any cons to why this would be an issue. Any other thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.