Combine Hero & Villain Markets
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-09 24:47 in Suggestions and Ideas
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As others have noted that's an RP reason. Even if you want to RP it it's easy enough to justify a merged market (assuming you're comfortable with the RP concept of a market in the first place). Heroes buying form Villains? Actually stolen good recovered by Longbow (with the BM paying the villain to avoid reprisals). Villains buying from Heroes? Spoils from a raid by Arachnos minions (and WW's insurance reimbursing the Heroes).
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Originally Posted by Jerikko
I thought the reason they were split was, heroes would not purchase pinched goods, and villians wouldn't bother looking for something honestly.
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Extremely unlikely. For one, infamy and influence are quite literally the same thing, as far as game mechanics are concerned.
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Originally Posted by Jerikko
Hmm maybe with GR we will have a influ amount and an Infamy amount.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
<qr>
This is hypothetical, but I could the devs not merging the markets, but allowing both sides to access either market at some point after the release of going rogue. Using either market would probably affect your alignment up or down depending on which was used and which alignment you currently are. Thematically it doesn't make sense for the markets to be merged, but it does make sense for a hero to buy/sell from the blank market and villain to do the same at Wentworths.
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
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You didn't hear it from me..|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
or how the imbalance is going to be reduced without a merger, but there you have it.
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But I heard a rumor.. From a friend.. who knows a guy who's got a guildmate who's roomate's brother rides the bus to work with the guy that sweeps the floors at Paragon Studios..
According to rumor they've solved this.
They're just gonna delete EVERYTHING and start us over from scratch.
While they're at it, they're un-naming every character in the game, because "all the good names are taken"..
>.>
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You do realize what a "black market" is, don't you?
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Originally Posted by CodeJunkie
Thematically it doesn't make sense for the markets to be merged
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Of course I do and I know what you are going to say. That people could be funneling things from WW to the black market and vice verse...yes, that happens, even in real life. The merging of the markets only works if no one really knows they are merged because why would heroes knowingly sell items to their enemies and potential enemies and the same goes for villains?|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
You do realize what a "black market" is, don't you?
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The reason why I said the devs would more than likely open both markets up to both sides would be to control and track what actions players are making. There would be nothing stopping a hero from buying something from WW and then reselling it on the black market and vice verse, or even a Villain buy low at WW and reselling high on the BM. Either side would probably take a ding to their alignment depending on their actions. By doing that everyone should get what they want and no gaping plot holes are created and reasons for conflict on the subject of a merged market. The markets are essentially merged at that point, but the players just have to make the effort to move goods from one market to the other if they want to do so.
Thematically was the wrong word I guess.
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
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Why would any of the characters know? (Well, considering the nature of the Black Market, a villain might suspect, but probably wouldn't care)|
Originally Posted by CodeJunkie
The merging of the markets only works if no one really knows they are merged because why would heroes knowingly sell items to their enemies and potential enemies and the same goes for villains?
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Knowing something like that requires out-of-game knowledge. In the RP world, we call that metagamaing, and you get hit with the Stick of Pain for it. In the comics world, we call that Deadpool, and you get hit with a lawsuit for it.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
It will happen once they realize that almost everyone who is levels 1-49 will move to blueside just to IO out then they will realize where their mistake was in this. They seem to think they can predict player behavior when they are actually so far from whats really going to happen. Personally I see this as the death of redside when going rouge hits. You might have a few that are just masochist that dont want to move but for the most part it will be deserted unless they finally make the content equal on both sides of the game. Personally thats where I see the devs made their mistake with redside, both games are just not equal in terms of content and zones. Making both equal goes a long way in equalizing the game.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
I seriously don't know why everybody complains that villains get fewer zones. Seriously, when's the last time you've gone into Boomtown if you weren't on a Numina TF? Or Dark Astoria if you weren't specifically hunting Adamastor or BP Masks? How about Perez Park for anything after The Hollows opened up? When's the last time you levelled from 10-20 in Skyway City instead of Steel Canyon, or 20-30 in Independence Port instead of Talos Island?
The devs realized that there were several zones that the majority of players were never visiting at all, and the ones who did go didn't stay there for more than a few minutes to do something specific. That's why the Rogue Isles are set up the way they are. Why should the devs create a new hazard zone just so everybody can visit it, kill whatever Giant Monster and/or new enemy group accompanies it the first day the zone opens, and then never go back? It'd be a complete waste of their time and our money, and would only lead to more people complaining about x not being fixed and y being unbalanced (and, of course, devs hating villains).
Content? Yes. Red-side needs more content. Especially Strike Forces.
And so as to not completely derail the thread, YES, OH MY GOD YES, MERGE THE MARKETS ALREADY.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I don't want to repeat or quote everything Fleeting Whisper has said in this thread. As usual, he's spot on. So I'll make an observation: Posi is a bright guy. I have a ton of respect for his game design acumen. The game has improved tremendously while he's been the head designer, and I am confident that GR is going to be awesome.
That said, his stated reason for not merging the markets is indefensible. And what's worse, it seems like his blind spot is causing a complex and awkward market mechanic to be implemented in GR. Beyond wasting programmer resources to prop up a bad idea, it just bothers me when an otherwise bright guy clings to a position that should be abandoned.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I feel that the whole thing is being done for RP reasons more so than one faction makes more money than the other. They are just saying its money. It just goes back to the whole thing when villains wanted empathy but they refused to give them what they wanted despite them knowning ahead of time they were going to do a going rouge. They choose to give them a poor substitute with pain domination instead. So by their definition of what empathy is no one who picks the empathy powerset as primary or secondary should be allowed to become a villain. It just boogles the mind why they do this kind of stuff making double work for themselves. I strongly believe the market will get merged sometime after going rouge when they see how barren villainside becomes from levels 1-49.
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Originally Posted by Sardan
I don't want to repeat or quote everything Fleeting Whisper has said in this thread. As usual, he's spot on. So I'll make an observation: Posi is a bright guy. I have a ton of respect for his game design acumen. The game has improved tremendously while he's been the head designer, and I am confident that GR is going to be awesome.
That said, his stated reason for not merging the markets is indefensible. And what's worse, it seems like his blind spot is causing a complex and awkward market mechanic to be implemented in GR. Beyond wasting programmer resources to prop up a bad idea, it just bothers me when an otherwise bright guy clings to a position that should be abandoned. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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This, I cannot wrap my head around. If they flipped a switch today that merged the market, how would anyone know who they are selling to? It's blind.
| The merging of the markets only works if no one really knows they are merged because why would heroes knowingly sell items to their enemies and potential enemies and the same goes for villains |
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Posi has explicitly said it's about the imbalance of inf. If he thought that RP reasons made it mandatory, he'd say so. What possible reason would he have to lie about it? That makes no sense. |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I feel that the whole thing is being done for RP reasons more so than one faction makes more money than the other. They are just saying its money.
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But since you brought it up, think about these questions:
1) If RP reasoning drives the fundamental structure of the market, how is it that alternate friggin' universes participate in the market? There's no RP explanation of how a player on Guardian can sell something to a player on Freedom.
2) If RP reasoning drives the structure of the market, please explain how we are paying and receiving inf at all. Think about what inf was originally asserted to be (literally reputation) and how it's evolved. Guess what: it's money. Any RP pretense that it isn't fell away a long time ago.
3) Observe an actual real life auction. Please tell me how you can tell that none of the goods was stolen. If the owners of Wentworths were dealing with black marketeers, heroes wouldn't know thus it can't be objected to on RP grounds.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I don't think Posi is a liar (I believe there is an imbalance if inf on the two sides, and I believe that's the reason the markets weren't merged).|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Posi has explicitly said it's about the imbalance of inf. If he thought that RP reasons made it mandatory, he'd say so. What possible reason would he have to lie about it? That makes no sense.
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I do, however, think he's wrong.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I just wanted to point out the irony of this statement, EvilRyu. This is essentually what you and many others continue to do with every post that deals with game mechanics or new features or wish lists, etc.| They seem to think they can predict player behavior when they are actually so far from whats really going to happen. |
You know nothing except what YOU are gonna do.
Here's a hypothetical I just thought of as I was reading through this thread:
Let's take two brand new level one characters. One hero, one villain. ATs don't really matter. Let's also make them now (before GR, so changing sides and using both markets isn't a valid tactic). Play them through the content without doing anything out of the ordinary, like PLing. They will level at generally the same pace. Any IO's that drop that are useful will be crafted and slotted, and the remainder will all be sold at the market (no storing, any non-usable recipes can be crafted, but must be sold and not stored for other characters). As of this moment, the markets aren't merged, so which character will be outfitted with IOs first?
Gotta base it on how fast they can sell goods, and how cheap they can buy what they need off the market, right? If we all agree that redside content is lacking compared to blueside, specifically the disparity between numbers of TFs available to run and merit differences between comparable content, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that heroes would be more likely to earn their IOs through either gameplay or rolling merits than using the market, and the opposite would be true for villains? (Villains would be more likely to have to purchase their IOs through the market, since theoretically they're earning less merits and inf than their blueside brother at the same level)
Now, if we merged the markets (before GR hits) would anything we're theorizing change? Heroes and Villains still have to run the same content as before, so the earning power outside the market hasn't changed. Won't Villains still have to do more marketing, on average, than a comparable Hero, to outfit themselves? Won't that mean that, on average, a Villain has to spend more inf than a Hero to IO themselves, since they'd be paying more to purchase things than they would to craft things they earned through gameplay?
Or is the issue totally about things being available, and not really about how much people are paying for things?
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
The biggest issue is availability.
In fact currently Villains are already paying more than heroes. The image on the previous page shows it. So if Villains already pay more than heroes we can't say that Villains don't have the money. Now I have no reason to disbelieve that overall heroes have more inf than villains(duh 2:1 population + 2 year headstart on existing), however the inf disparity can not shift drastically with the markets being separate.
I thought the reason they were split was, heroes would not purchase pinched goods, and villians wouldn't bother looking for something honestly. But yeah combine them, maybe there should be an deflation cost or something depending on which side is spending more money server wide. Inlu is up $2.00 while Infamy is down $1.20. That way villians could buy stuff at a higher lvl.
Hmm maybe with GR we will have a influ amount and an Infamy amount.
Or maybe we should be allowed to have an atm machine in game so we can just store our money there, at a 10% loss for all our characters server wide, so that any of our alts could just grab some money and buy their crap rather than doing an influ transfer between peeps.