Question for those new to Kheldians.

I have been seeing a lot of question threads lately related to how people are finding Kheldians, especially Peacebringers frustrating and confusing.

What exactly is causing you to be confused or frustrated to the point where you delete the character?

The reason I ask is because I have never found them frustrating or confusing and it would be nice to know why people feel that way about them. I come across people in game that I assume are new to the game and don't really know about Kheldians but they always say they haev heard how they are this or that way and I end up having to explain things that counteract what they've been told.

So I ask, what causes those of you who have deleted Kheldians to do so? Is it because they are not straight forward like a Blaster, Controller, Scrapper, Tanker, etc? Is it because you are overthinking the character too much rather than just playing with them and finding your niche? Is it because you are not finding them fun and the power boring?

Please enlighten me.

I realize I'm not part of the demographic you asked to hear from, but I just wanted to toss my two cents in on this topic since it's one that interests me as well. Not too long ago, je_saist made a very insightful post about Kheldians not pigeonholing well into preconceived team roles and it's got me thinking about this a great deal lately.

It seems like this and an unrealistic expectation of godmode are the most common things I see players new to Kheldians complaining about and finding frustration with as they attempt to make Khelds of their own. Both problems stem from the person making the Kheld expecting it to be something other than it is.

That said, I'll be interested to see what other responses this thread gets.

I'll bite. I have a Warshade (I know you mentioned Peacebringers, but I haven't tried one yet) sitting at level 22. I've had him for several months, but just can't really seem to use him for than an hour or so at a time. Granted, he is nowhere near slotted up, but he's just incredibly difficult to play as.

In Nova form, I feel like the squishiest of blasters. Honestly, at level 22, I feel like 3 white minions are a threat to me. (Statesman would be so proud). Nova form seems to have NO mitigation, short of "I hope that thing dies before it gets to me!"

In Dwarf form, I feel like the weakest of Tankers. Sure, I can take the hits, but it takes 5 minutes to drop an opponent. I do so little damage that my blue bar is flirting with empty after only 2 or 3 white minions.

I can't really comment on the human powers, because I've focused entirely on the two forms. I've thrown all my slots into Nova and Dwarf, trying to make them feel viable and powerful.

I think the biggest problem is that the number of options with my Warshade is simply too great. They don't have any clearly defined roll, but rather, have the potential to be solid at everything. I feel like if you don't pick early on what area in which you want to specialize, you'll never end up with a solid character. Without a clear focus, instead of doing one or two things very well, you end up doing five or six things very poorly. Warshades are intimidating and frustrating because you simply have too many options, and the only way to figure out which playstyle, and subsequent build, is right for you is trial and error. This can get tedious, and frankly, isn't very fun, so many people just drop out of the Kheldian altogether and play as something else.

That's my opinion, anyway.

I’m not sure how someone can over think a low level toon, after all they there is not much to think about at level 1. I also doubt that most people would feel they need to be godlike, but Kheldians do have a different feel to them.

I am normally a melee type player and I prefer scrappers. Even at lower levels a scrapper can take out a few baddies quickly. On the other end, a tanker has a notable survivability to them. What was initially frustrating to me was the stamina required to level on a PB. And before I’m asked, “Yes, I do slot endurance and accuracy first“. I also tend to solo more often, due to real life, which can make those early levels a bit more time consuming. The description of Khelds shows them as med/med power/def, so there should not be too many people expecting them to be umber powerful. Furthermore, since they gain strength by those in your group then they do not sound like a class normally utilized by those who solo frequently so some people may not even have their heart into them.

This game has so many options, which is a great aspect. There are still so many scrapper combinations I want to try out, even those I have deleted already. J With all these options it’s easier to say, “Heck, this PB is having stam drain issues and I still want to try out that DB/SR guy too….” Sure, with Khelds you have the option of forms, but the other classes have several different combinations to pick from and I personally don‘t like way to forms look.

Speaking of appearance it’s important to me that my character “feels” and looks right. I can change the way blades look to give the appearance I want. I can give my blaster a cool looking bow, and my tanker can wield a nice look axe. However, I can’t take the glowing bubble away from my PB. Ok, I can but then there goes my protection. A couple months ago we got the ability to customize our heroes even more, well… the other classes did.

I can’t speak for everyone else of course, but these minor issues can add up, as they did for me. I’ve never hated PB even when I deleted them. I just told myself I wanted to play another class because this one just did not feel right, but then again I’m more of a melee guy. Add the fact the stamina drain was annoying and I did not want to be the boy in the bubble it made starting another toon an easy decision.

Nothing wrong with Khelds, just so many options on how to spend your game time.

Interesting responses.

Bill no offense, but your reply sounds a little bitter. Also if the sound bothered you why not just turn down sound effects? If that was one of the contributing factors to why you deleted your character wow is all I can say.

Mike its okay that you mentioned your Warshade, I asked for people refering to Kheldians so talking about either is fine. I am ultimately just curious why so many people have so many issues playing with a Kheldian character. I agree that Kheldian do not have a clearly defined role, but its also not really hard to define their role once you know what you want to do with your Kheldian. Take Warshades for example, in your post you said "I feel like if you don't pick early on what area in which you want to specialize, you'll never end up with a solid character," but I have to disagree. I think you could easily go through your level progression into your 20s or 30s with a very solid character. I used to play a completely human Warshade and she level up very quickly. Now I only team so I am only speaking from the viewpoint of teams, but she was an absolute monster and I lead Task Forces with her all the time. Warshades are much like Scrappers when it comes to their mitigating powers. Take an Invul Scrapper for example, you aren't getting Invincbility until level 28 and many would argue that Invin is the staple power in the secondary. With Warshades Stypian Circle or Eclipse could be the set defining powers for Umbral Aura. I personally think Stygian, Inky and Eclipse are the only mitigating toggles you need, but thats just me.

Either way thank you for your reply, much appreciated.

AF, I have to agree with the person that said a lot of people are expecting God-mode from a Kheldian, especially since they are called "epic" classes. In the PvE game Warshades and Stone Tankers are about the closest thing you can have to being completely immune to harm and even Granite Tankers have a penalty when they are using Granite that Warshades don't have to have when using Eclipse so its not hard to see why some would think about them being God-like.

That being said, I am more curious about your endurance issues you mentioned. I recall leveling up my human form Peacebringer and there were some issues with endurance but those didn't really come until the mid 20s and even then they weren't crippling like the ones a Night Widow faces.

Since you said you solo primarily that may be the main difference between us because I team 98% of the time and for those times I am not teaming I am probably not at the computer for one reason or another. Thanks for your feeback also, much appreciated.

I just hit fifty two days after double XP weekend with a MA/Inv scrapper named Ink Girl. My first Kheld I rolled was a PB and I love the flight and then the nova but it just wasn't working too well for me.

Then I rolled a Warshade. The tp right off the bat was great. I'd never had tp before and I used it like a madman. Baddies getting too close, hold alt and click [added the bind] and i'm behind them still firing. This was great when fighting in the sewers with a team. I'd get aggro due to my damage and have to zap myself to a ledge, etc.

The Peacebringer got deleted. I only keep around 10-15 toons around at once.

My WS has been on plenty of missions. I'll usually start by tping slow team members to the door. I'll announce "I can dish it out, but I can't take it" when in nova. And I've had people polite enough to announce a quantum we were coming up on so I could hide.

I'm thinking of keeping Dwarf totally unslotted and making nova a god of death. She's at lev 12 and just took stealth and will take SS to get invisibility. With the renamed recall friend, I can really help my team out. And the more I help them, the more they want to protect and heal me while I rain death all around. It's a good pattern, the more help to me, the more help to them, whether that's something simple like tp or, usually, dishing as much damage as two scrappers.

I'm taking this WS to 50, but I also have a BS/Regen scrapper and Archery/Electric blaster I'm using. Oh, and my "main toon" Betty Forever on Freedom, a very killer AR.Dev Blaster.

Hmm, I think forgetting Betty was significant there. My main toon is now my WS, Gemini Dream on Freedom.

[And how, this late in the game, was the name of that Moody Blues song not taken?]

I also need to make a human only Warshade. I didn't read the faqs on them yet because when I heard about the concept I thought it was dumb...but it could be very cool.

Post, this topic is about why a person deleted their Kheldian, not about what they plan on doing with their Kheldian.

Just a little bit of advice since you are still early in your Warshade's development. Do not take Stealth you have ZERO need for it since you have Shadow Cloak. Also if you plan on taking SS (which I also find is not needed) then you will have full invis that way. another alternative would be to take a +Stealth IO and use that in teleport and then you would have full invis again.

Once you get Stygian Circle and Eclipse your proposed plan will change because you will not need to help your team because they will be following you in support since you will be Tanking and dishing out damage.

I have a very bad problem with my Peacebringer. I felt I could do a lot of damage but not enough to survive the aggro. I couldn't solo ANYTHING because I had nothing to counter the voids/quantums. I got to level 16, and I reported my trouble on the boards here. Their solution was to slot up incandescent strike. I didn't have the wear with all to level passed level 16 because I could not duly slot and use incandescent strike. Catch 22, and an idiotic suggestion in my opinion.

I love my Warshade. I have one at level 35, and I started another on virtue to assist my SG and streamline the growing pains of taking dumb stuff like shields. Warshades are great for trick or treat. Double mires, Unchained Essence, Quasar, blue inspy, and stygian circle for teh winn!!!1!

In all fairness 16 levels is hardly enough time to see how excellent they can be.

Also who's advice did you listen to about slotting up Incandescent Strike as a means of dealing with Voids/Quantums, that just flat out stupid and I can only hope they weere being facetious when they told you that.

You can't even get Incandescent Strike until level 18 anyway, so whoever told you that likely either was being facetious or wasn't paying very close attention.

In the early levels, I've usually found the best solution to Quantums/Voids is overwhelming force. Eat several inspirations and go to town on them - purple and red inspirations especially. It's not as bad now that their damage has been toned down and you'll only fight boss-class Q/Vs if you're in a large team (and I would hope on a team of that size someone would help you.

I-Strike's not bad and the hold is nice - it's one good tool among many. Although on my PBs nine times out of ten overwhelming force is still my tactic of choice with Q/Vs for the most part. As with Sappers or other troublesome special enemies, they're the most dangerous when they see you before you see them.

Personally, I love playing a PB. So I've never deleted mine. I have, however, deleted all my Warshades (I think I've given them about 3 tries now). I want to like them...I really do. They seem so cool, I love their energy effects (that dark purple/black just looks AWESOME!!!), I like their slow (or whatever their powers do inherently....I forget at the moment). I want so badly to be able to like them.....but I just can't. I really dislike teleport as a travel power (though I could possibly get over that if they'd just let Warshades take hover!!!!). And I can't get over the fact that their heals & rez powers are so reliant on having baddies around in order for them to work. When I need to heal, I NEED TO HEAL!!! I don't want to worry about having enough accuracy slotted in the heal power so it'll actually hit some baddie (that I had to target in the first place) and pop the heal off. I want to just be able to click on "heal" and.....well, heal. It makes me kinda sad that I can't get past those mental hurdles & really get into playing a WS. But, I'm having a blast with my PB.

Sounds like a playstyle conflict, which is perfectly reasonable as a reason not to like/play something. The only thing I'm keying in on is the mention of accuracy in a heal - that sounds like you're referring to Essence Drain or Black Dwarf Drain, which makes me wonder if you were using Stygian Circle on your Warshade. +HP and +End for every fallen baddie around you, no accuracy needed (though it does, as you noted, require baddies around. Defeated ones, but baddies nonetheless).

If I'm not mistaken, Stygian Circle hasn't always been autohit if it is in fact autohit now. It's been a long time for me since I last played a Warshade, I think I5 or 6 but I do recall it requiring a to-hit check at one point in time.

Stygian Circle has had a number of upgrades over the years, but as far as I can remember it's always been autohit. It didn't always provide the values it does now and in fact didn't used to provide +End at all, but I don't recall ever having a miss with the power (except from timing issues with fallen enemies fading away or positioning issues where I was too far away or KB'd, but that's not the same thing as a to-hit check). I can state with certainty that it is autohit now. I believe it always has been, but it's entirely possible that there was a to-hit check early on. It's been autohit since at least Issue 4, as I got my first 50 and created Iscariot shortly thereafter.

It really sounds to me like Essence Drain from the information provided, though. And if a neophyte Warshade player was trying to use Essence Drain to pull himself out of a tight spot, I don't fault him his frustration. I always found the power useful as part of a regular attack chain to keep a human-form Warshade topped off, but as an emergent heal in a sticky situation I wouldn't rank it highly.

Coming from Controllers (with an Ice/Rad played as an aura-"tank") I got quite frustrated with my 1st generation of Kheldians at first, and deleted my first ever Warshade because having to wait until level 18 to get a melee Hold power seemed very annoying to me. I then came to the boards, read all I could find about Kheldians and had a few discussions where some Kheldian players told me a ranged hold on a Kheldian would be overpowered and I went back to the drawing board, first with a Warshade and then with a Peacebringer, both TriFormers, both at Lv50 now.

I've never really used shields and the Human-only play-style still doesn't sit well with me, but Kheldians (both PB and WS) are one of the best ATs' in CoH as far as I'm concerned.

Please state your motherboard revision^W^W if you team or solo with your support request.
Warshade soloed to 32.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_Ray In Nova form, I feel like the squishiest of blasters. Honestly, at level 22, I feel like 3 white minions are a threat to me. (Statesman would be so proud). Nova form seems to have NO mitigation, short of "I hope that thing dies before it gets to me!"

Ah, but then you smack Stygian Circle and you're all fixed up for the next spawn! (This usually needs a sneeze of recharge in Stygian Circle.) Unless there's a lieutenant, in which case you tagged it with Gravity Well at ... some point. (Been a while, I'm fuzzy.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_Ray In Dwarf form, I feel like the weakest of Tankers. Sure, I can take the hits, but it takes 5 minutes to drop an opponent. I do so little damage that my blue bar is flirting with empty after only 2 or 3 white minions. I can't really comment on the human powers, because I've focused entirely on the two forms. I've thrown all my slots into Nova and Dwarf, trying to make them feel viable and powerful.

(emphasis mine)

Reading Plasma's guide (scroll down a bit for the gold standard Warshade build), except for the toggle and Dwarf Mire, Dwarf's powers go unslotted until 29.

There's a bit that goes here that involves Warshades not having an equivalent to Radiant Strike and the note buried halfway up Plasma's guide about slotting Nova for soloing, and otherwise not deviating, but I can't phrase it without it taking on the properties of nitroglycerin.


[1] Unless the guide's a manual page.

As some one who is kinda new to them I think the reason why people either delete or never play the AT is because there are so many powers and so few slots that many times you end up having a very ineffective build, and so they think that the AT sucks and go to a different one. Fortunately for I me I know better and through I am horrible at slotting I just come here for advice

Hey guys, just wanted to give my 2 cents. I hear a lot of people whining about Kheldians as well when they see me enter the team. A lot of people talking about how much they hated playing them and refuse to play them.

BUT!!! The problem is, people don't KNOW what kheldians do because of the freedom of thought required to make choices. A tanker, obviously, tanks. A blaster, obviously, blasts... Etc. Etc. etc... And while naturally playing the game and studying the powersets and planning out my play strategy, the kheldians are so intuitive it's hard to see why some people are having so much trouble with these two ATs. With powerset proliferation and the constant nerfing needed in an MMO to balance sets, you get so many min/maxers that powersets become "cookie cutter". I don't think khelds are prone to this kind of thinking with all the choices you're allowed to make. I absolutely love it and look forward to one day getting a few more ATs into the game that gave you as much freedom as the khelds do.

My first kheld was a WS and completely CHANGED the CoX universe for me. The storylines were AWESOME! The gameplay was awesome! Sure, it was a bit more challenging, but the WS can take a solid team and turn them up a notch in eating through enemies, and patching up holes to get by when things get tough.

Then I've been working on my PB who is just about to hit 35, and again, he completely CHANGED the CoX universe for me. And he's kind of the opposite of my WS. He's the ultimate recon weapon. He takes a hole-filled team, he fills whatever role the team needs (and does it well mind you!), and turns the team into a solid team that has no weaknesses and can't be beat.

The only frustrating thing about kheldians is trying to figure out which AT I like more. I'm usually a melee/damage hog and HAVE to be in the middle of things causing tons of damage. But my PB is probably my favorite character I've ever created. I love the extra challenge of adapting on the fly to my teams needs. I love the constant need to attend to hairy situations to help dominate and squeeze enemies into submission.

Long story short, kheldians are awesome. Given the way every other regular AT is made in the game, I don't know what stroke of genius led to the devs creating the khelds. For the people who didn't give their khelds enough time to appreciate their sophistication and finess, shame on them. I guess some people need a manual to be told how to play the game. For the rest of us, there are kheldians.


PS, for those who are just starting khelds and need advice... Decide your vision. What do you want to accomplish with your kheldian? The more you want to do, the less effective you'll be at everything. The problem with this is, you've been programmed to min/max your toons to make the best possible use of your powersets. With a kheld, having versatility is one of the big strengths of the ATs. So you'll be walking a fine line between min/maxing and versatility - and there's where the freedom and fun comes in.

Once you've got your vision in mind, look at all of your potential powers and lay out a road map of what powers help accomplish your vision. Based on these powers, start designating slots to the most important powers. You won't get everything fully slotted, so again, make a decision between beefing up your versatility (spreading the slots around to all the powers you've chosen to be okay at everything) or min/maxing your powers (fully slotting your key powers). Depending on how defined you want your role to be on a team, you may want to min/max your build with fully slotting powers. If you want a more loose definition of your role on a team filling in where needed acting as "recon" (as I do with my PB), you'll need to be much more thoughful with your slots and spread them around just enough to maximize general effectiveness.

Ultimately, know who YOU are. Know your toon. Know your playstyle and make sure your kheldian's power choices and slotting matches that idea. It takes both a well built kheldian and a smart player to use a kheldian effectively, but an effective kheldian can be absolutely devastating and IMO two of the most fun ATs in the game.