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How does this help Trick Arrow, Rad (outside of AM) Storm and Dark ?
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Originally Posted by DaveMebs
I was thinking, maybe get rid of vigilance and give defenders a critical buff, similar to the critical damage that scrappers have. For example a defender uses Insulation shield on a teammate, and there is a 10% chance that the buff has double strength. Feedback on this idea?
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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
It could include debuffs as well
As for the toggles, they could make it similar to procs in toggles by having it roll every ten seconds or whatever time increment they choose
Give them an inherent Stamina.
/end of problems
What? A guy can wish, right? 
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Big nono. When it comes to teams almost faceplanting and you're on an Empathy Defender, Vigilance is VERY useful to help keep your team a-truckin'
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Originally Posted by DaveMebs
I was thinking, maybe get rid of vigilance and give defenders a critical buff, similar to the critical damage that scrappers have. For example a defender uses Insulation shield on a teammate, and there is a 10% chance that the buff has double strength. Feedback on this idea?
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Yeah but for the other primaries? Why have an inherit power that ONLY helps empathy defenders? (maybe thermals too) Besides, if you have a critical buff it would make it less likely that your team faceplants in the first place
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Well, that's sort of what Vigilance is but you get that from doing poorly. Arguably, Vigilance simply needs to be tweaked so it is soley based off of the number of teammates and not how badly they are hurt.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Give them an inherent Stamina.
/end of problems What? A guy can wish, right? |
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/signed|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Well, that's sort of what Vigilance is but you get that from doing poorly. Arguably, Vigilance simply needs to be tweaked so it is soley based off of the number of teammates and not how badly they are hurt.
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(ps: ive never played a defender past level 5 =D)
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I'm sorry, I don't understand this phrase. :P
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Originally Posted by ReclusesPhantom
Vigilance is VERY useful
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I actually find it useful because it allows me to avoid the infamous Stamina. It just needs to be tweaked.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I'm sorry, I don't understand this phrase. :P
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Well, that's sort of what Vigilance is but you get that from doing poorly. Arguably, Vigilance simply needs to be tweaked so it is soley based off of the number of teammates and not how badly they are hurt.
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Hmm that's a pretty decent idea, maybe 2% discount per person in the team (including yourself). Which would lead to a maximum of 16% discount at all times.. Doesn't sound horrifically overpowered, but still useful.
Although I like the crit buff idea as well,
*Drools at the thought of an getting a "Critical" Fortitude and a "Critical" AB from an Emp*
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This in a nutshell! What do I care if my END is recharging faster if everyone is dying around me? I cant get them healed any faster or buffed any faster, leaving them is the same difficult situation, but me with a full blue bar.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
I actually find it useful because it allows me to avoid the infamous Stamina. It just needs to be tweaked.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Even though the idea of an inherent Stamina would annoy me, I must admit it's better than an inherent end discount that only works on teams, lol. I could see an inherent Stamina that improves the more teammates you have around, and this would accomplish the same task as the current one without being broken when solo.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Give them an inherent Stamina.
/end of problems What? A guy can wish, right? |
Still, I think Defenders need something all around BETTER than endurance related. Everyone else has to slot end reducers and maybe pick up stam if they don't like the costs of their powers, and THEY don't get an end discount or inherent Stamina. You need something that SCREAMS defender by working with what they are designed for rather than just alleviating a pain that everyone deals with.
For example...
What do Defenders do:
Heal/Buff/Debuff + Minor damage if they feel like it.
What can be done to help them:
Improve Heals/Buffs/Debuffs, or improve their minor damage.
Problems:
Improving their Buffs can sometimes be overkill (bubbling an SR scrapper vs. critically buffing an SR scrapper would probably give the same general amount of defense because you'd reach the cap either way for the most part).
Possible Solution:
Give Defenders a buff that improves with their other moves being used, much like Blasters get to their damage while using defiance. Make it so as a Defender uses his/her blast moves, he/she'd gain a buff to healing/buffing/debuffing that increases until finally being unleashed on a teammate. Imagine your dark defender blasting a boss, then suddenly pulling off a massive strength Twilight Grasp. Or a Force Fielder using energy blasts until suddenly giving the tank a stronger shield to help support the unexpected extra spawn that ambushed your team. Or an empath shooting mind blasts around then unleashing a heal that brings the tank to full.
Don't get me wrong, this is only half of it. Now, you have a bubbler who has to reapply all his bubbles because they are wearing off. He rebubbles 7 people and then unleashes a blast that could put a Blaster to shame, but uses up all that stored energy that was gained by buffing. Imagine an Empath healing her little heart out but not quite keeping up, so she Nukes and clears the room.
Make two bars that behave like Domination, one building as you attack, and the other as you heal/buff/debuff (or just have one bar color coded for the current effect that is building). For example, a Fury colored bar builds up as you heal, telling you that you have reserve damage waiting for your next attack, but a light blueish bar building as you attack to let you know your defending will have a bonus when you next unleash it. Make it only buff the next move, but make the bars increase much more than Fury and Domination do, since it's meant to allow you to alternate jobs. This would by no means make you a blaster, but it would make your secondary set have a purpose while still making your primary set your focus. You could even leave the name Vigilance.
Any opinions?
Edit:
On another note, you could even make it so the power of the move used (damage dealt/healing dealt/strength of the buff, etc.) would determine how much of the bar fills. For example, using moves you don't get very often like Adrenaline Boost or EMP would probably max your damage buff in one application, and using your Nuke in your blast set should probably fill your heal/buff/debuff effect. You may have to wait for your end to come back to reap the benefits, but all the more reason for moves like those to max the buff. This would help Trick Arrows too (launch a bunch of arrows, then blast the group. Blast some more to build up your TA debuffs then unleash a wicked debuff on your next trick shot. Spray a few more debuffs then unload a powerful blast again. Doesn't this sound fluid, fun, and thematically perfect? Vigilance: Being alert to the situation at hand and always being ready when needed... Sounds right to me, lol. You are shooting and suddenly, DUTY CALLS! and you do what defenders do best. Then you are healing and a teammate is under attack by a boss and you melt his face to the floor! Personally I like it.
Archon, it's an interesting idea. If balanced right, it could work. However, I think it's probably too radical a change (code-time-wise) to be seriously considered.
What I, personally, would like to see would be to either:
1) Simply add recharge, accuracy, (and maybe) damage to the existing endurance reduction that Vigilance gives. This way the defender gets better at everything a defender needs to do when the team is suffering, not just saves some endurance. Doesn't matter how much endurance I've got if I'm waiting on all my defender-y powers to recharge...
or (my preference)
2) Give defenders a small buff to everything (smaller than what #1 would give) on a permanent basis (rather than hit-point-linked) for each member on the team. This would be very similar, but not the same as, the team-link that Kheldians get. That way defenders are rewarded for being "team-oriented" toons actually on a team, while not rewarding them only if they "aren't doing thier jobs" as the current vigilance does.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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I just don't find the current Vigilance to be at all useful except for low-level (pre-Stamina) or poorly designed defenders (ones that use End profligately).|
Originally Posted by ReclusesPhantom
Big nono. When it comes to teams almost faceplanting and you're on an Empathy Defender, Vigilance is VERY useful to help keep your team a-truckin'
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If the rest of the team is dying and you're held, stunned or slept, or if the baddies are attacking you, it doesn't matter how much endurance you have: in those cases you either have to stand there doing nothing because of the mez, or you have to fight or flee or heal yourself or defend yourself. And then there is the vast majority of defenders that aren't empaths to consider...
A much better Vigilance would allow you to actually be Vigilant (i.e., not falling asleep, being stunned, etc.), or use your powers more quickly or more effectively. Having the end to use those powers would also be nice, but team mates are rarely dying because I'm out of end. It's because I'm mezzed, or too far away, or they're taking damage faster than my powers can recharge, or they are crazily debuffed and I can't stop the enemies from attacking.
The current Vigilance is only helpful for defenders who have done poorly. It rewards failure instead of success, unlike all the other inherents, which reward characters for performing their functions well.
For example, if a defender is getting low on Endurance, he might say, "Well, I guess I'll just let the blaster faceplant so I can heal the tank better." That just doesn't seem right to me. Blasters get more Defiance by blasting faster, Dominators get more Domination by dominating, Brutes get more Fury by attracting aggro and attacking, etc.
If a Defender was to get their inherit "fixed", it would be nice if it would benefit the Defender and not yet be even better for another player. Some Defender builds are not really centered to be support buffing/heal masters such as Kin and Emp, but think of Dark and Storm (who does their group benefits by impacting the mob). It would be nice if an inherent could be deviced that benefits all Defender AT types.
Might be fun as the Defender uses their powers to attack, buff, heal, etc. They build "Purpose". As "purpose" builds up they gain Status effect Resistances. Thus ensuring they can hang around better to provide support to tanks with out the inconvenience of perma "sssssss", etc. If soloing, if they can develop a streak of attacks, they are bit more resilient to the ever present spam status effects, something they need since in many cases their overall damage is so poor, of course there are exceptions such as Kin and Rad, but because there are exceptions it does not negate the need for other builds. In a way "Purpose" is similar to what the Blaster is already getting.
Stormy
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I agree it's pretty dramatic of a change, but it's less dramatic than the blaster defiance change. First 2 primary and first secondary move usable when mezzed, plus a damage buff added to each power. It could be done about as easily as that, just would take more time because of balancing heal bonuses with non-heal bonuses like buffs and debuffs. Otherwise, I think it's totally do-able.
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Originally Posted by Soulwind
Archon, it's an interesting idea. If balanced right, it could work. However, I think it's probably too radical a change (code-time-wise) to be seriously considered.
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If you crit with absorb pain do you do double damage to yourself and not heal for twice as long?
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No use.|
Originally Posted by DaveMebs
I was thinking, maybe get rid of vigilance and give defenders a critical buff, similar to the critical damage that scrappers have. For example a defender uses Insulation shield on a teammate, and there is a 10% chance that the buff has double strength. Feedback on this idea?
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Controller buffs get you to your max or very close to it.
Defender versions give about 20-30% over what you need to hit max, resulting in the common trend that the difference between a Controller and a Defender buff or debuff is wasted effort.
Basically, there's little difference in results between a Controller using their secondary and a defender using the same set as a primary, mostly because of the max-limits.
Adding MORE buff on top of that is basically just adding more wasted effort.
You could try a extension to buff durations, but that doesn't help every defender set either, several are based more on Toggles than on Clicks.
I've discussed this before, Defenders are not a coherent enough of an AT that they can have an easy inherent.
The only thing they universally depend on is Endurance, which is why Vigilance affects Endurance and even that is less than perfect.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
I'm afraid I don't understand how they hit their max. If you were, to say, get a crit force field all of a sudden it does 45%ish defense buff instead of 20-25%ish which certainly is not "Adding MORE buff on top of that is basically just adding more wasted effort.
"....Even if used on a SR scrapper, that scrap would become absolutely unstoppable. I can't think of a single defender primary that hits the "max". I am not talking softcap, I am talking hardcap.
I don't like the idea of boosting a defender's defense, damage, tohit or anything similar. The concept of a defender is to help teammates so I think the power should help the defender defend his teammates.
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I can hit max damage bonus from controllers, max recovery, max regen, max movement speed, near max recharge and the hard cap on defense is more or less unnecessary.|
Originally Posted by DaveMebs
I'm afraid I don't understand how they hit their max. If you were, to say, get a crit force field all of a sudden it does 45%ish defense buff instead of 20-25%ish which certainly is not "Adding MORE buff on top of that is basically just adding more wasted effort.
"....Even if used on a SR scrapper, that scrap would become absolutely unstoppable. I can't think of a single defender primary that hits the "max". I am not talking softcap, I am talking hardcap. I don't like the idea of boosting a defender's defense, damage, tohit or anything similar. The concept of a defender is to help teammates so I think the power should help the defender defend his teammates. |
Likewise, I can easily bring enemies down to minimums with debuffs.
Simply put, fun as defenders are to play, they're an extra, poorly planned out AT.
They're supposed to be clerics to controllers' mages, but they're basically just sort of scattered.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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Well, yes and no. When buffing a Fire tank, Sonic Resonance would definitely reach the cap with either a controller or defender, but with a Force Fielder, you'd have a beautiful overlap of stats. The same goes for an Ice tank who wouldn't want defense buffs, but instead resistance buffs (for the most part). Dark Armor would want Force Fields instead of sonic in most cases. Shield Defense would want resistance instead of defense buffs, but would still benefit from both. To increase the buff strength of Sonic Resonance wouldn't help a Dark Armor tanker, but it would be great on a Shield Defense tanker or SR scrapper, but another assumption your post makes is that you are only going to be using your shields on armored classes. What if a blaster is getting his *** beat? LOL, it would help to throw a stronger shield on him than normal. That's why I'd rather that defenders got a primary that didn't give them a "chance" of double strength buffs or heals, but instead a multiplier bonus to the strengths of those moves based on something else. A "crit" heal or buff would be 1) overpowered, 2) often unnecessary, and 3) unplanned and unexpected, and therefore not acceptable for a class that's meant to save lives. Could you imagine crit buffing? "Sorry blaster, my force field didn't crit when it hit you. Let me keep trying.......................................there we go." Waste of time, end, and purpose.|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
No use.
Controller buffs get you to your max or very close to it. Defender versions give about 20-30% over what you need to hit max, resulting in the common trend that the difference between a Controller and a Defender buff or debuff is wasted effort. Basically, there's little difference in results between a Controller using their secondary and a defender using the same set as a primary, mostly because of the max-limits. Adding MORE buff on top of that is basically just adding more wasted effort. You could try a extension to buff durations, but that doesn't help every defender set either, several are based more on Toggles than on Clicks. I've discussed this before, Defenders are not a coherent enough of an AT that they can have an easy inherent. The only thing they universally depend on is Endurance, which is why Vigilance affects Endurance and even that is less than perfect. |
I suggested a new inherent power that lets them build the strength of their primary abilities by using secondary abilities, until unleashing that improved strength on their next buff/heal/debuff, and while using primary abilities, they build damage that will be unleashed on their next offensive move used. That way if, say, you're a bubbler and you buff up the team, you start shooting right? Not much else to do while waiting for the buffs to wear off. All that blasting will raise your Vigilance bar, and when someone is suddenly in trouble, boom, you hit them with a powerful shield to take the hits they are getting. The same would go for healing and debuffing. THAT'S vigilance, if you ask me. Being alert and on call, even when not needed just yet, and still finding something to do even when you aren't needed.
I think that Vigiliance should include a recharge rate increase along with the endurance reduction/recovery boost. Like others have said, it doesn't matter if I have 100 endurance if my powers are recharging.
It'd also be nice to have some sort of mez resistance....but not sure how'd you implement it. I'd like to see the inherent be useful to yourself when you're solo'ing as well but...*shrugs*
As far as Defenders being not a 'well thought out' AT...I'd agree but disagree as well.
I think Controllers should not have the same secondaries as the Defender's primaries. I'm glad that Controllers don't have Dark Miasma...I think Controllers should have (for secondaries) more control...like a mix of Blaster and Dominator secondaries. I remember when TA was on test and it was great for a Defender....then the devs "nerfed" TA because as a secondary on a Controller...it was too powerful.
Controllers should control, leave buffing/debuffing to Defenders. Now that doesn't mean that Controllers couldn't have some small debuffs/buffs in their secondaries but...I would leave a good 90% of buffs/debuffs (number wise too) to the Defenders.
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No no no no no, please, no! |
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
I think that Vigiliance should include a recharge rate increase along with the endurance reduction/recovery boost. Like others have said, it doesn't matter if I have 100 endurance if my powers are recharging.
It'd also be nice to have some sort of mez resistance....but not sure how'd you implement it. I'd like to see the inherent be useful to yourself when you're solo'ing as well but...*shrugs* As far as Defenders being not a 'well thought out' AT...I'd agree but disagree as well. I think Controllers should not have the same secondaries as the Defender's primaries. I'm glad that Controllers don't have Dark Miasma...I think Controllers should have (for secondaries) more control...like a mix of Blaster and Dominator secondaries. I remember when TA was on test and it was great for a Defender....then the devs "nerfed" TA because as a secondary on a Controller...it was too powerful. Controllers should control, leave buffing/debuffing to Defenders. Now that doesn't mean that Controllers couldn't have some small debuffs/buffs in their secondaries but...I would leave a good 90% of buffs/debuffs (number wise too) to the Defenders. |
I like my controllers, lol. They are support classes like Defenders, but they aren't the same, and to give them a mixture of blaster/dominator secondaries would be not only be lame, but imbalanced with Containment. Please don't change my controllers, lol. They are fine as-is. They got rid of the massive numbers of pets they had early on, and I had no issue with it. They don't get Dark Miasma, and that makes sense (they already get a pet, a second one would be overpowered). But don't change their secondary sets... that's just... omg why do that??? It would break how the game is currently designed, lol.
As for defenders, at least defenders can do damage when the enemy is not held, and often can keep up with or surpass a controller's damage if your build is right. For the record, I refuse to make a fire/kin because I think it's lame, but don't get rid of my perfectly legitimate controllers because you feel defenders have no purpose in comparison. That just means we need to make defenders better, not controllers worse.
I was thinking, maybe get rid of vigilance and give defenders a critical buff, similar to the critical damage that scrappers have. For example a defender uses Insulation shield on a teammate, and there is a 10% chance that the buff has double strength. Feedback on this idea?