Teleport too END heavy relative to other Travels?
By
Barata,
Posted on: 2009-10-16 16:01 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
With somewhat standard IO slotting such as T&SM it's not a problem to move across maps. TP is definitely the fastest of the lot, although it takes some practice. Because I choose TP as a travel/tactical power on a few characters, I skip hover/fly, which are not necessary if you TP quickly enough (which, as you indicated, is helpful with binds).
Each of the Costs of a travel power is weighted against multiple factors. Lets go over the base stats for a minute.
Fly has a base endurance usage of 1.00 end per second, and at 50, a speed cap of 58.63mph.
Super Jump has a base endurance usage of 0.45 end per second, and at 50, a speed cap of 78.18mph
Super Speed has a base endurance usage of 0.46 end per second, and at 50, a speed cap of 92.50
Teleport has a base endurance usage of 13 endurance, and at 50, a range cap of 300ft+98%, so just under 600 feet.
Oops. Somebody corrected me below. I remembered range as a 33% SO... but it's not. Range cap would be 300ft + 48%~52%, so around 450 feet.
***
Each of these travel powers is rated against how much risk they take to use. Since Fly is the safest toggle travel power, it's the slowest. If you have fly you'll never really be in danger when running the streets of Paragon City. Fly is also resistant to lag effects. If you lag while flying, it's no biggie... unless you're in the Shadow Shard and you flew through a mob of Rularuu that weren't there before.
Super speed is the fastest travel power, and one of the riskiest. If you have Super Speed you'll be running through mobs, over obstacles, and have to find unique paths through several different zones. Try getting to the reactor in Terra Volta with just Super Speed. It's a hoot. However, Super speed offsets it's risk twith a small stealth.
Super Jump is the next fastest, and quite a bit risky. If you land your jump wrong, you could be sitting in the middle of a mob. Super Jump also has no mitigation against mobs. While Fly offers knockback protection and Super Speed offers stealth, Super Jump offers nothing else.
Teleport's advantages are that it can be used while immobilized or slowed. It can also be used to go around / through obstacles. If you position you're camera right, you can put a tank on one side of a wall smack dab in the middle of some enemies on the other side of the wall. Teleport is also the safest over all mode of transport. It also can be used to get around lag effects that might rubber-band SJ and SS users.
All of these different factors, and others, contribute to the endurance costs of each travel power. For what Teleport does, and offers, as a travel power... it is in balance with the other available travel sets.
With stamina, I find the end cost to be a non-issue. My Sonic/Sonic can TP with dispersion, epic armor and two leadership toggles running. Also have TP on a non-stamina TA defender. Takes a bit more endred, but manageable. Keep in mind that slotting for range will also help your end usage, since you'll reach your destination more quickly.
Since I use TP in combat on a few characters, I'd love to see its end cost reduced. That being said, I am not sure I'd say its too high at its current level. It is a bit hard when your travel power requires you to rest a bit between the trams in SC, but that usually becomes a non-issue with Stamina and an End Red slot.
Chalk me up as a solid, meh on this issue.
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I usually rest between the Green and Yellow line by tp'ing to the top of the zone, and letting my character drop before my next tp, instead of tp'ing repeatedly. 
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Range Enhancement caps closer to 40-50% So you're talking more like 450ft range cap.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Each of the Costs
Teleport has a base endurance usage of 13 endurance, and at 50, a range cap of 300ft+98%, so just under 600 feet. |
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| Super speed is the fastest travel power, and one of the riskiest. If you have Super Speed you'll be running through mobs, over obstacles, and have to find uinque paths through several different zones. Try getting to the reactor in Terra Volta with just Super Speed. It's a hoot. However, Super speed offsets it's risk twith a small stealth. |
[QUOTE]Teleport's advantages are that it can be used while immobilized or slowed. It can also be used to go around / through obstacles. If you position you're camera right, you can put a tank on one side of a wall smack dab in the middle of some enemies on the other side of the wall. Teleport is also the safest over all mode of transport. It also can be used to get around lag effects that might rubber-band SJ and SS users.[QUOTE]
Teleports ability to go around/through things depends solely on good camera angles. It's possible to teleport around a warehouse corner or over a wall but only if you can see over the said corner or wall. In the small council tunnels it's less useful, but generally so are the other 2nd tier travel powers.
I suppose you have to put a price on it but for something not meant to be used in combat it doesn't stack well against something like Super-speed.
My general feeling is Teleport needs something, reducing the END cost seems like the simpliest thing to do at this point.
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In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
Teleport is combat movement and world travel in one power. Fly and superjump are supressed and not ideal for combat, though hover and CJ fit the bill nicely.
With teleport my tank can instantly respond to a situation over THERE. My empath can teleport around hami and pop buffs and heals on multiple groups without neglecting the taunter. Instant battlefield positioning is a powerful tool, though perhaps less desirable than CJ and hover in tight quarters. Teleport does require a little planning and placement to use, but it helps you out of a lot of situations that normal travel powers couldn't. As noted before, it's tough before stamina and slotting, but I feel that the power is balanced.
That said, my favorite in battle travel is still combat jumping +hurdle.
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Given the activation time of teleport, with enhanced range it is by far faster than any other travel power across the map. (Effective speed = distance / activation time)|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Each of the Costs of a travel power is weighted against multiple factors. Lets go over the base stats for a minute.
Teleport has a base endurance usage of 13 endurance, and at 50, a range cap of 300ft+98%, so just under 600 feet... *** Super speed is the fastest travel power, and one of the riskiest... Teleport's advantages are that it can be used while immobilized or slowed.... All of these different factors, and others, contribute to the endurance costs of each travel power. For what Teleport does, and offers, as a travel power... it is in balance with the other available travel sets. |
Superspeed is excellent for both strategic and tactical movement (and my preferred method where vertical movement isn't an issue) and I suggest instead that it is actually among the least riskiest movement powers given it's inherent enemy -perception effect. A low-level character with superspeed doesn't have to worry about getting whacked on the way to/from missions.
I agree that the endurance usage in teleport is reasonably balanced. With a pair of Space and Time Manipulation IO's (which give a nice set bonus by itself, even the trio if you can splurge the slots), endurance is not an issue, even when crossing an entire map.
Finally, flight isn't just for map movement. It is a highly (pun intended!) viable tactical combat power. I have a DM/SD scrapper who throughout her career regularly took on foes like those flying Rikti heavy suits in mid-air. A flying scrapper, imagine that. Fun play!
I may be in the minority but i always 6 slot TP 3 range and 3 end, fastest travel by a mile.
not very "in mission" friendly, its the most difficult travel to use, and has little accuracy. and i think that would be good enough reason to reduce the cost.
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Doesn't that seem like an excessive use of slots though? Flying, Jumping, and Super-speed need at most 2-3 slots to be really workable as a Travel power. I find two good speed IOs fast enough to the point where I can barely control it.|
Originally Posted by Mercuryflux
I may be in the minority but i always 6 slot TP 3 range and 3 end, fastest travel by a mile.
not very "in mission" friendly, its the most difficult travel to use, and has little accuracy. and i think that would be good enough reason to reduce the cost. |
Teleport need close to four slot just to be usable to go from one end of the Zone to the other an not run out of slots.
I've used all four modes of travel, even using super-speed in grandville and never really run into issues with NPCs I don't want to fight. Of the four, teleport is the most END intensive though.
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In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
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This and the slight clunkiness of TP tends to put me off it.|
Originally Posted by Raithnor_Mal
Doesn't that seem like an excessive use of slots though? Flying, Jumping, and Super-speed need at most 2-3 slots to be really workable as a Travel power. I find two good speed IOs fast enough to the point where I can barely control it.
Teleport need close to four slot just to be usable to go from one end of the Zone to the other an not run out of slots. I've used all four modes of travel, even using super-speed in grandville and never really run into issues with NPCs I don't want to fight. Of the four, teleport is the most END intensive though. |
I do love it in certain cases. But, right now, I know I find the end cost restrictive for more general use.
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The realities of travel power balance have changed fairly drastically over the years.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Each of the Costs of a travel power is weighted against multiple factors. Lets go over the base stats for a minute.
Fly has a base endurance usage of 1.00 end per second, and at 50, a speed cap of 58.63mph. Super Jump has a base endurance usage of 0.45 end per second, and at 50, a speed cap of 78.18mph Super Speed has a base endurance usage of 0.46 end per second, and at 50, a speed cap of 92.50 Teleport has a base endurance usage of 13 endurance, and at 50, a range cap of 300ft+98%, so just under 600 feet. Oops. Somebody corrected me below. I remembered range as a 33% SO... but it's not. Range cap would be 300ft + 48%~52%, so around 450 feet. *** Each of these travel powers is rated against how much risk they take to use. Since Fly is the safest toggle travel power, it's the slowest. If you have fly you'll never really be in danger when running the streets of Paragon City. Fly is also resistant to lag effects. If you lag while flying, it's no biggie... unless you're in the Shadow Shard and you flew through a mob of Rularuu that weren't there before. Super speed is the fastest travel power, and one of the riskiest. If you have Super Speed you'll be running through mobs, over obstacles, and have to find unique paths through several different zones. Try getting to the reactor in Terra Volta with just Super Speed. It's a hoot. However, Super speed offsets it's risk twith a small stealth. Super Jump is the next fastest, and quite a bit risky. If you land your jump wrong, you could be sitting in the middle of a mob. Super Jump also has no mitigation against mobs. While Fly offers knockback protection and Super Speed offers stealth, Super Jump offers nothing else. Teleport's advantages are that it can be used while immobilized or slowed. It can also be used to go around / through obstacles. If you position you're camera right, you can put a tank on one side of a wall smack dab in the middle of some enemies on the other side of the wall. Teleport is also the safest over all mode of transport. It also can be used to get around lag effects that might rubber-band SJ and SS users. All of these different factors, and others, contribute to the endurance costs of each travel power. For what Teleport does, and offers, as a travel power... it is in balance with the other available travel sets. |
Flight (and now hover) have gotten faster, which was desperately needed. It's still way too slow to take, even though it's my favorite travel power. I have it on my one character with wings, but that's a concept thing.
TP is the most annoying (coming from someone who has it on two characters). There's no reason for it to be such an end hog. It is the most succptible to lag- both my characters with TP also have hover, so they don't plunge out of the sky. Once you get it all slotted, yeah it's pretty good. I'm of the opinion that all travel powers should be "good" out of the box.
super jump is good & has always been fine.
But SS is by far the 'best' now- slap a stealth IO in it and you're effectively invisible. the GvE jump pack, or any temp travel power (bank mission, day job, whatever) and the lack of vertical isn't an impediment.
The old thinking about travel power balance doesn't really fly in the modern game. I hope they reevaluate the whole system sometime. TP and flight need help- there's no reason to take them other than concept, which is not a good position to be in.
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Unless if you have Boost Range for around 600'+ like on my AR/EM Blaster (641'). Granted, usage starts to get a little tricky at the most extreme levels.
| Range Enhancement caps closer to 40-50% So you're talking more like 450ft range cap. |
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I knew I had seen somebody with a 600 foot teleport range before...
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Originally Posted by LostHalo
Unless if you have Boost Range for around 600'+ like on my AR/EM Blaster (641'). Granted, usage starts to get a little tricky at the most extreme levels.
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I think TP could use some love. It does have advantages over other travel powers, but it does have quite a few negatives too. It's the only travel power that absolutely needs enhancements or Stamina (unless you're doing short jumps). It's tricky to use and is not very accurate (explained later). Also, while it's fast as a travel power, the activation time makes it difficult to use in fun ways.
Accuracy. Yes, you can teleport right to a spot, but that spot must be something that can be pointed at. If you wanted to teleport on top of something, you can only do it if you can adjust your camera angle or pull the camera back far enough to see the spot and cursor it. With range enhancements, you can easily overshoot your mark and have to teleport back down again. If someone is running away, it'd be nice to be able to teleport to them, but you have to instead try to target the ground ahead of them and time it so that you'll arrive there when they hit that spot. These aren't major things, but they make Teleport not feel like what you'd expect. To me, endurance is one of the least of its issues.
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Yes, this is probably the least desirable characteristic of teleport - the inability to TP exactly where you want in a number of situations. Moving across a map is not a problem, TP'ing high up well off of the ground, pointing at the sky ahead, then approach the mission door from above it at an angle. But in a tactical situation like where you want to TP mid-air in the middle of a room, it's not possible - there's no reference point to aim the TP location. So, in reality, you're limited to only being able to go to those locations with a reference point to aim your TP target reticle.|
Originally Posted by Barata
Accuracy. Yes, you can teleport right to a spot, but that spot must be something that can be pointed at. If you wanted to teleport on top of something, you can only do it if you can adjust your camera angle or pull the camera back far enough to see the spot and cursor it. With range enhancements, you can easily overshoot your mark and have to teleport back down again. If someone is running away, it'd be nice to be able to teleport to them, but you have to instead try to target the ground ahead of them and time it so that you'll arrive there when they hit that spot. These aren't major things, but they make Teleport not feel like what you'd expect. To me, endurance is one of the least of its issues.
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It's also, as some have mentioned here, not smooth ("klunky"), with a hover delay between and/or after each TP jump. Of 7 of my characters, only one has a TP and that was more out of the desire to practice and experiment with the TP power rather than any specific concept or tactic in mind. It took quite a bit of practice to learn how to use reasonably well (and using a 't' keybind to keep it simple).
Also agree that endurance is not an issue - at least for most characters - even with minimal slotting. You can move across an entire map constantly TP'ing without running out of endurance, and it's not often you'll be constantly TP'ing around during the course of a battle or fight in a mission map.
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No travel power is "best". A travel power may be most preferred or preferable to a player, but every player is different and what is "best" for that player is entirely subjective.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
But SS is by far the 'best' now
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I can effectively argue that Hurdle is "best", just like you argued that SS is "best", and give compelling reasons why, and it would be just as applicable as your statement. And, really, just as subjective, and just as meaningless.
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| TP and flight need help- there's no reason to take them other than concept, which is not a good position to be in. |
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It is subjective. 90% of the time it usually doesn't matter too much which travel power you take. There are instances though one outperforms the other though.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
No travel power is "best". A travel power may be most preferred or preferable to a player, but every player is different and what is "best" for that player is entirely subjective.
On the other hand, there's also no reason not to take them, since there aren't special limits imposed for playing according to concept. You aren't hindered by not having "free" Invisibility or Stealth, or not hitting the run speed cap. |
Sure you can get Teleport to a managable level with the correct slotting, but why does it require more slotting that the other powers do?
Here's a different tack: Alter the base range of TP to account for the difference betweek Range Enhancement and Fly/Jump/Run Enhancements. TP hasn't really changed since issue 1 AFAIK but between ED and the schedules of Range Enhancements players have had to adapt to the new system. These changes weren't specifically directed at teleport and the end result isn't as balanced as it could be.
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
I like teleport quite a bit, but only plan to take it on characters with quick recovery or something along those lines.
Anyone feel that for the amount of distance Teleport can cover it has a very high END cost? I mean sure it's point to point and you can port while immobilized and slotting it can help.
I use the Shift+Click Bind, and I've gotten the hang of TPing without relying on hover. but it generally feels like I get more "bang for the buck" with Fly, SS, and SJ.
I'm not evening going into the lack of precision/higher learning curve or the issues with Travel suppression.
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)