RP and MA - Good fit?

A question for the RP community. With all the problems and "Adjustments" going on for the Mission Architect I was curious as to whether the RP community had any of the problems that others are having with it. Those being the drop in XP for those mishes not properly crafted as to make use of the wealth of options in MA. It seems that most of the problems were caused by those looking to Powerlevel their toons from 1-50 in record time, and no doubt the gold farmers particulary enjoy the up until now exploitable options that MA brought to the table.

For me, the 1-50 adventure is not a race, but a journey to be enjoyed and I treat it like one of the "pick your own adventure" books that were popular for a time where your choices dictated what happened to you. This is somewhat why I am looking forward to the next issue which will allow the possibilities of different AT's in both sides of the game.

So, To the folks that read this and decide to respond: What does MA mean for you? and does the adjustments made to it make it less or more attractive to you?

Thanks in advance for responding.

DragonShadow

The bulk of the adjustments to AE have been to prevent players from creating gimped custom bosses that can be slaughtered wholesale without being able to fight back very well, and to stop the boss farms that were populated with mobs and mobs of boss or lieutenant enemies and little else.

If you're going to make a mission with multiple varying enemy types, you'll be fine. AE and RP go great together.

good luck D.B.B.

To be honest, I don't really pay attention to how much XP an AE mission that we designed for role play purposes is giving out. So I can't really answer the question directly.

I can say, we love the tool and use it every weekend to advance our stories.

We see it as a story device, not an XP device. I think the problem with some of the reaction, is people still play these games like Pacman. They equate XP to "points", and believe the game is fundamentally driven through the acquisition of these points. Old paper gamers, usually learned long ago that RP games are often much more liberating and interesting when you focus on story rather than acquisition

Paper games, for decades, have gamed in systems that allowed you to have as little - or as much - XP as you wanted, right at the start and at your GM's whim. As a GM, in games such as this, I could make you all level 50 - *to start*, and give you your heart's desire in terms of items, if I chose to. So XP was always abstract and meaningless, it was just a throttle, something that decided how much power would be exhibited in the adventure.

Early video games, could never adopt this. Mostly because, in the day, they were designed to compel you to drop another quarter in the machine. Games don't need to work that way anymore, but in many ways video games haven't advanced much beyond that thinking.

I look at Dragon Age: Origins for example and I sigh with a heavy heart. How utterly banal and flat the character designer is! We simply, refuse to let players take legitimate control over design! Instead, we spoon-feed them a template and then pretend they have control by letting them adjust the size of their cheek bones. It's fascist, archaic thinking. The old lie that the mother-ship knows best. I believe, games a decade from now, will laugh at how provincial that kind of thinking is. Just like we laugh at Crusaders of the Dark Savant (albeit with some retro-affection).

What I love about what COH did, is they put legitimate power in the hands of their player. Not fake-power, (like XP), but actual power to design/craft their own adventures to extend and augment a virtual world on their own. It was evident from day 1 with how liberal the choices were in their character generator, which was (in my view) a quantum leap in how a character can be designed.

As for AE, sure, the capabilities are crude and limited, but it is a decent start - and in my view - it is indicative of the kind of gaming that will be embraced in the next generation. Games that provide customization, personalization and environment design - will slowly become the norm, and these three qualities will be judged as being just as important as the power-curve and "skill" level of the game.

I look at Gabe from "Penny-Arcade". Here we have a power-gamer (both in fiction and RL), who largely scoffed the idea of RP and game mastering. Suddenly, after he is given some basic tools to GM what he's always envisioned, he can't stop blogging about it. If we can reach this level of convenience in a video-game, I believe that game will explode - in a way that will make Blizzard's success seem paltry in comparison. Our gaming, is much more closely tied to the ancient practice of telling stories around a fire than we realize, even the more ardent/jaded power-gamer is really, at some level, just an extension of that old tradition.

I have beefs with the AE tool. I find the text editor is clumsy. I find the inability to build your own maps, frustrating. I most especially find it annoying that I can't place objects/mobs at specific places, and that what is considered "front" and "middle" on some of the maps are completely backwards. I'd love it if super-bases had a console that acted like an AE work station and one of those "beams" that take you into your mission, which would greatly improve immersion.

All these things, will come in time. Not to COH maybe, but eventually GM tools will become mainstream in video games. Spore made some noble attempts at this (but ironically provided too little mechanics for the intricate designs to do). Sims also does some good GM work - and we've seen in both cases that gaming communities will take the little pieces you give them and make wondrous creations from them. Heck, even COH's super-bases yield fantastic designs and spaces; that are often better than the actual maps the game designers provide.

I can make a lot of fun, from what AE already provides. It's not the kind of fun that will would appeal to thousands of gamers. I don't want it to be, only because there's already so much generic content out there, so why create more? I want to create the kind of fun that has meaning to me and my small group of players. We take turns writing stories, sometimes creating a cliff-hanger and then letting another player resolve it in the next episode.

It's wonderful stuff. I don't think we praise AE enough. It can make weekend-RP for us, "come alive". Sure it is crude at times, but it works - and it can make each mission seem like a genuine issue from a comic.

So to summarize: problems? No. None. But then, I don't really give a rat about XP when I use the tool. Do I have a strong desire to see the tool provide even more function? Yes! Yes! In fact, I'd pay more per-month just for the privilege.

I've written MArcs for Rp reasons maore than any other. I made a few to further stories along for some of my characters, and two I made for other players. As a tool for Rp, I love the MA. I could care less about the exp changes.

The way I see it, MA is a lot like a tabletop session. Sure, everyone would like to get exp and gain levels, but it all takes a back seat to whether or not the session/arc is enjoyable or not. It's always a good sign when a player suddenly goes "Uh, have we figured how much exp the last three sessions were worth?" and everyone at the table goes "Oh, wow, I totally forgot!"

Of course, I have awesome tabletop players who care more about the story/adventure than the phat lewt. It no doubt goes this way with AE as well, since having the right/wrong people involved in anything rp-related will make or break the entire experience.

What I can say is that in my 10 years of MMOs, I'd have killed people in cold blood to get something like AE in any of the games I played. It might not be Neverwinter Nights level customization, but it's damn good for this type of game. Now that the farming crowd is leaving it alone, I just hope people eventually accept it more as a legitimate part of the game.

Back in the old days, my group would have to hunt down a particular mission or arc in order to provide the proper backdrop for a storyline (and god forbid if you needed more than one, or it was the end map to a particular story arc). Nowadays, we can just make an MA arc and go on with it.

Back in the old days, unless it was a big storyline, most of the RP boiled down to standing around talking or doing the usual mission lines, without much overlap. Nowadays, I can take a spur of the moment idea and have it built into a workable MA mission in about an hour, with the complete expectation of both combat and RP. That's incredibly powerful.

Suffice to say, it's awesome. The restrictions on Custom Critters are extremely minor. Sure it means I still can't customize them exactly how I want them due to not wanting to lose all XP rewards, but most of my gripes have been minor from the start. Not to mention the underrated fun of making good use of existing enemies.

I think MA is a fantastic RP tool. The missions I've made have all been for that purpose; they provided a backdrop for RP or furthered a storyline that specific characters were engaged in. I love it for that, and I love that the developers actually did it! I mean...kudos to them for just coming up with it at all.

But...

I really hope that that's not all it ends up being. I had initially done a lot of lower level MA arcs because they provided an interesting alternative to regular content. Even for a relative newbie like me, it doesn't take long to learn the standard low-level mission offerings backwards and forwards, especially Redside, and that gets old fast (for me, anyway). But, even before the recent changes, I found that doing non-farm missions, particularly if you were soloing, was not as fast as leveling up in regular content. Now, I assume that progress would be even slower. That disappoints me.

I personally enjoy role-playing games for both the "role-playing" and the "game." I see game mechanics, including character advancement systems such as XP, points, new skills, or whatever the system might be, as aids for enhancing roleplay and character development, not as detriments to it, or as elements that exist in opposition to it. If that weren't the case, I'd probably still be on full-consent RP MU*'s, instead of playing MMO's and tabletop. So, in conclusion, I hope they'll reconsider at least some of the recent changes. Even if they don't, I'll still be using it, but it will always leave me with a nagging "this could have been _more_" feeling.

-- Crystal

I have 3 different groups that use the MA for RP-based weekly events, and not for farming, and it's wonderful. Players log in with enthusiasm on the nights that these are run, and some of the "GMs" write plots that run a month long, with them making a 4-part mission arc each week for it.

Does it matter if it adds to our XP, if we're enjoying our gaming Experience?

Yeah the editor isn't perfect, but good gravy, nothing else lets you make these.

Personally I love the IDEA of the MA. The execution is sorely, sorely lacking.

I'm all about good stories. That's why I prefer redside to blueside, the writing and story arcs are far superior. However, with the MA, the options given the players actually do not allow them to create anything more interesting than what already exists elsewhere in the game, and let's face it, the writing on almost every player-made mission is, to put it kindly, sub-par. Additionally, despite my heavy focus on RP and story, I don't play the game exclusively for the story, and I would wager that nobody else, despite the protests to the contrary, actually does. A big part of the game is the accumulation of rewards and profits for your time spent. The rewards of the MA need to equal that of regular play, otherwise it feels like a waste of time.

Until the rewards of the MA are commensurate to the risks of fighting the custom enemies, or equal to the rewards you'd get from regular missions... I don't see the point to it. Once you're at 50 and, theoretically, have already acquired everything you want to on that character, and provided you have friends who are great writers that will make high quality, engaging content... I suppose it would be fine to do a mission purely for the story. Even at that, however, the MA still feels like you are accomplishing nothing, which really kills its appeal.

Making tickets more common/valuable, or changing things around to make rewards equal to regular mission, is critical if it's going to have any long term use beyond a tiny, exclusive fraction of the already minority segment of the playerbase that RPers represent.

Don't see the point? Well to each their own.

For me, the point is, the stories can be catered to your exclusive group of friends and characters. The stories can reference them specifically, build of their previous adventures, exploit their known weaknesses, creating episode after episode of stories that build on one another; where each member of your group can take turns in weaving the next chapter.

I do agree, the rewards are a required element of any game, because the provide the what Hitchcock calls the "McGuffin" the thing your character is chasing. For non-roleplayers the McGuffin is just simply XP and badges - for roleplayers it is this and more.

Nobody suggests that the basic instruments of the game aren't necessary; what some of us suggest is, they are merely instruments, and at heart, all roleplaying games are really much more based on narrative and interactive story-telling than most power-gamers realize. XP, tickets, influence and prestige are abstract; in the end they only provide the drive to acquire more. They don't really represent the game's entire premise or appeal.

Most AE missions aren't that badly written, from my perspective. I mean this is comic books, the bar is already quite low. I find stories written by 12-year old kids that are a delight. Are they grammatically perfect, or deeply meaningful? No, but they are a lark, they do demonstrate the wonders of a 12-year old imagination, and at this level, I find they are quite enjoyable indeed.

I think we roleplayers/gamers can be so dreadfully snobby at times. This is comics, this is a video game. We're not trying to perfect the "method", or create the next iteration of Homer's Odyssey. Nobody is lamenting the lack of pathetic fallacy, because you can't control the weather in the video game. Nobody is looking for symbolism in a comic-book super-hero mission.

At the level of what this game is: "biff, bang, pow - I got to save the world now", I think AE is a wonder - and I think a lot of AE content is a great addition to the game.


I could do without the tickets, and I wish COH would consolidate prestige/tickets/influence etc. etc. into a single currency. I wish we had more diverese environments, different planets a space station, and underwater adventure, etc. etc. I have beefs, but overall I find the tool has revitalize my interest in this game.

I finished a 3-hour AE session tonight and it was a ball. Structurally it was no different than any generic PvE mission. The story was cookie-cutter: find a device. We didn't even use custom mobs this time. But because the story was catered for us, with a premise we could RP before the mission - and then conclude by wrapping up the mission with a cliffhanger, it felt so much like we were living out own comic book. We even provided a basic hook for next week's episode. By making it week-to-week, it feels we're in our own radio play. It's wonderful.

I don't think AE can perform much better than regular PvE for mass-appeal. However for a custom experience, catered exclusively to your own taste and group, I think it is a roleplayer's dream.

Can it be improved? Sure it can. Still, it has made RP that much more richer for me and my friends.

I think most of the replies here already sum up my opinion quite well.
Currently our VG uses MA weekly to run customized story arcs IC, and for other events as well.
We even ran an MA arc during the Double XP weekend despite the fact that double XP didn't work in MA

Agreed with above, I believe MA's primary *intended* function was for RP, not PL

As an aside, MA can also be used to test solo toons and teams with more difficult scenarios than the devs are willing to maintain before people start complaining.

But I prefer the RP, in fact now that my warshade has hit 50 I'll need to use the MA to continue his story with my wife's PB or we'll forget about those toons.

I use the Mission Architect solely for roleplaying reasons.

My SG (Well, VG, but they're basically the same thing...) makes MA arcs all the time, and a friend of mine makes some killer mini arcs.

I do wish that everyone could talk to the contact instead of just the team leader, or that you could add cutscenes, but I think it's an incredibly powerful tool.

We use MA a lot for SG stories and events with SCORPIO. The two arcs I currently have published were created specifically for SG Events. Honestly it makes RP more interesting, especially being able to create one off custom missions for a specific story setting that isn't as readily available in game.

I personally wish there were more RP-esque maps, like an apartment building or a house. Small one or two room maps like some of the mayhem/safeguard maps.

I try to go out of my way in the mission description that the mission I am publishing is almost useless to anyone but those in our group/circle. I want to avoid having people stumble into my arcs and feel lost or slighted by what they find. They are playable missions of course, but without the context, I am sure the story seems jagged and at times, incomprehensible.

I concur with ransim, that more maps would be ideal. Really designing very simple ones, would be ideal. Most of all, deciding where things are on a map is critical. I am constantly getting burned by the "front, middle, back" locations and randomization. Last Sunday, we had to back up two floors on a map to find a key NPC, when that NPC was tagged to appear at the "back".

I was on a thread, way back about using AE for strictly insular purposes was legitimate. Some people were arguing building missions only for specific groups, was both selfish and elitist. I disagree. I think this is the tool's greatest strength, and it would be foolish not to cater the content to a specific audience. Sure, you can build great generic content as well, but it seems to me you are just adding more logs to an already large wood pile.

As a GM for decades, I can tell you, in my experience the best adventures eventually cater and bend to the will of their players. It gives the players a greater sense of control and a greater sense of immersion. So I think using AE to cater to small groups, is a great use of the tool.

I put up the disclaimer as well on my arcs, for the reasons you brought up Red
Of course taking them down after they've been played would help as well (but i often forget >.>)
I did get positive feedback for one of them though from a complete stranger lol

Forgot to mention that recurring villains and nemesis are another great aspect of AE. This is one area I hope to focus on more. Developing cool recurring villains for our SG, that are strictly NPCs.

Also I often add allies liberally, (usually basic "shock troops"). It makes the final battle against the EB or AV all the more epic.

I also recommend setting up battles just for atmosphere. They can be hard to balance, but when I had a mission that was meant to simulate a small invasion on a beach head by Arachnos, I just spread all kinds of battles everywhere between Alpha Squad's drones and Arachnos - and it really made it seem you were fighting in the middle of an invasion.

It's little immersion tricks like this, that I find make AE a real joy.

More outdoor maps would be great, just random forests and random wilderness to start. I find I use the parks/graveyards far too often when I want an outdoor setting.

I wish Paragon would ante-up on some new environments in general.

I guess, because they involve so much design-work (which is probably pretty expensive), they've avoided this. I am pretty sure, as good as GR will be - that any new zone/maps will just get more rehashed urban-zones.

I'll still buy GR, because the RP potential of crossing factions is too good to pass up.

Has anyone noticed how much role players are catered to in this game in subtle ways? Can we thank them somehow for this? Can we each chip in 5-bucks and buy them all a really cool cake? Maybe with a stripper inside?

Chaos Red has already said everything for me, so I'll just +rep him and move on.

I find it's good for plot resolution. You have a character in your SG who's hung up on one thing or another, from his past, or some current side investigation of his, or whatever. Eventually it's gotta get resolved, and it's lame to just walk into the base and be all, "I DEFEATED MY FATHER'S MURDERER LOL, AND BOY ARE MY ARMS TIRED"
Much more interesting to get some of those SG mates involved, instead- round up a posse and actually go to catch the guy in a custom mission.