Please change Shockwave for claws
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2009-10-12 08:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I assume the answer is AT modifiers.
http://www.redtomax.com/data/modifie...elee_Knockback
Yup. That's the answer.
Brutes: 2.596
Scraps: 2.077
Should claws shockwave be changed from KB to KD?
I would no longer gripe about that change. If there is now balance/performance based precedent for it, maybe it should be done.
Course.... considering that brute claws is probably now the king of melee AoE, we probably don't have a case on the performance/balance side of things.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
I agree claws HAS the potential of dealing great aoe damg BUT... in my experience the actual aoe damg isnt that great.....|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Course.... considering that brute claws is probably now the king of melee AoE, we probably don't have a case on the performance/balance side of things. |
Shockwave does LOWER the aoe damg in many cases since you have run to the mobs again you did send flying al over the place, and after shockwave the mobs arent packed tightly so that the tiny radius of spin can reach most of them.
Claws doesnt have any big hitters, and MOST high lvl mobgroups have at least 1 lt. or boss mob with absurd high lethal resistance.
It takes forever to kill a malta robots, council robots/wolves, ritki lts and bosses etc.
I never really understood why there are so many highly lethal resistant mobs but almost none vulnerable to lethal.
No other damg type is so highlyl/often resisted as lethal apart from maybe psi.
I cant really see any benefit lethal sets offers to counter that.
If there is one i would like to know pls.
Quote:
Did you just disagree with BILL about dealing damage as a brute?!?!
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Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
I agree claws HAS the potential of dealing great aoe damg BUT... in my experience the actual aoe damg isnt that great.....
Shockwave does LOWER the aoe damg in many cases since you have run to the mobs again you did send flying al over the place, and after shockwave the mobs arent packed tightly so that spin can reach most of them. Claws doesnt have any big hitters, and MOST high lvl mobgroups have at least 1 lt. or boss mob with absurd high lethal resistance. It takes forever to kill a malta robots, council robots/wolves, ritki lts and bosses etc. I never really understood why there are so many highly lethal resistant mobs but almost none vulnerable to lethal. No other damg type is so highlyl/often resisted as lethal apart from maybe psi. I cant really see any benefit lethal sets offers to counter that. If there is one i wold like to know pls. |
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Quote:
I disagreed about brute claws being the king of meele aoe.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Did you just disagree with BILL about dealing damage as a brute?!?!
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So, yes?
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Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
I disagreed about brute claws being the king of meele aoe.
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ELM is the best burst AoE. SS, well Rage + FS, has been coined as the best sustained AoE for sometime for brutes. But I think Claws will surpass SS for that title and I'll be able to provide more information once I get my Claws/Inv brute to Shockwave (currently level 26).
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Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
I disagreed about brute claws being the king of meele aoe.
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Why are we discussing which set is better aoe ?
I just wanted to discuss if shockwave should be changed from KB to KD or not, cause imo knockback powers in meele sets are pointless and annoying no matter which set.
I completely disagree with the idea of changing shockwave to kncokdown.
Using the knockback to position the mobs is a key element in how I use the power. Push them into a corner and then use Spin and Eviscerate on the tightly packed groups.
I find knockback in this power neither pointless nor annoying.
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KB isn't pointless and it actually serves a excellent purpose, mitigation. KD does provide similar mitigation but KBing an enemy provides longer or more mitigation than KD. Sets like SS (hand clap), ELM (lightning clap) and Martial Arts all have a KB power in the set that helps provide mitigation for the secondary.
Whether KB is superior to KB is up to the player I guess. KB has never bother me but I know some players go ape$**** over any type of KB. Like hitting "F" is so terrible.
I will give this a yes every time I see it suggested because of the simple fact that it DOES NOT take away any tactics. All you have to do is slot it with ONE kb enhancement to change it back to kb. Any arguement against this change holds no ground in my eyes. If the one enhancement change destroys your toon, you were doing something wrong. You dont even have to put in a pure kb io, it could be a kb/rech, end, acc, whatever.
This comes up a lot. Obviously it gets mixed results every time, but in the past a majority of the people who posted on the topic have been in favor of the change.
Quote:
Yeah, Shockwave is great when mobs are standing near a corner.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
I completely disagree with the idea of changing shockwave to kncokdown.
Using the knockback to position the mobs is a key element in how I use the power. Push them into a corner and then use Spin and Eviscerate on the tightly packed groups. |
I'm curious, though. When there is no corner to push them into (which is the vast majority of the time, in my experience), do you still use Shockwave? Do you change your behavior if you're on a team vs. solo?
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Quote:
My guess is that the devs actually view the KB as a counter balance to how effective the power is. If you changed the KB to KD, Shockwave could be used every single time it's up with no tactical penalty, and it might be considered overpowered both for AoE dps and for mitigation. |
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
I will give this a yes every time I see it suggested because of the simple fact that it DOES NOT take away any tactics. All you have to do is slot it with ONE kb enhancement to change it back to kb. Any arguement against this change holds no ground in my eyes. If the one enhancement change destroys your toon, you were doing something wrong. You dont even have to put in a pure kb io, it could be a kb/rech, end, acc, whatever.
This comes up a lot. Obviously it gets mixed results every time, but in the past a majority of the people who posted on the topic have been in favor of the change. |
Throw Spines is an awesome power that can be used whenever you like. Now imagine it with a 1 second animation and Knockdown.
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Quote:
Player shouldn't be forced to remove acc, dam, end, etc in order to achieve the same order of magnitude for KB the power was originally given.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
I will give this a yes every time I see it suggested because of the simple fact that it DOES NOT take away any tactics. All you have to do is slot it with ONE kb enhancement to change it back to kb. Any arguement against this change holds no ground in my eyes. If the one enhancement change destroys your toon, you were doing something wrong. You dont even have to put in a pure kb io, it could be a kb/rech, end, acc, whatever.
This comes up a lot. Obviously it gets mixed results every time, but in the past a majority of the people who posted on the topic have been in favor of the change. |
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Further, even if you frankenslot to the same general effectiveness you had before, you can no longer get the last bonus in a set.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Player shouldn't be forced to remove acc, dam, end, etc in order to achieve the same order of magnitude for KB the power was originally given.
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Quote:
Because thats stopped them from changing a powers damage/ end cost/ recharge time before right?
| Player shouldn't be forced to remove acc, dam, end, etc in order to achieve the same order of magnitude for KB the power was originally given. |
So far we have:
Point: Changing Back to Down causes no change in tactical advantage.
Counterpoint: Being unable to push spawns into walls/corners negates the ability to pack spawns into tighter groups to increase the chance they'll be hit by eviscerate and spin.
Point: Players could always slot for knock if they want the Back.
Counterpoint: Players would lose effectiveness doing so.
Point: The Back is in place to counter potentially overpowered AoE output.
Counterpoint: Scrappers must be overpowered against +4s.
Point: Brute claws is the king of AoE and needs something to keep it in check.
Counterpoint: Other sets may have better AoE output.
I think we can all see where this is going: Nowhere. Just like it always has.
Would I like to see it? Knowing the power of my scrapper's claws against 54s when cycling FU, Spin, Shockwave, repeat? Oh hell yea.
Am I going to be the one that tries to talk Castle into doing it? Nope.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Which not the same as changing the SECONDARY EFFECT of the power, is it?
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Because thats stopped them from changing a powers damage/ end cost/ recharge time before right?
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Quote:
It's easy to justify the change to pet powers because pets don't have the same level of intelligence that players do in the proper use of powers. In many cases (not all, admittedly), taking a step or two is all that you need to turn the "disadvantage" of of the knockback into an advantage. To wit, knocking the mobs into a corner or a wall to collect them for other area/cone powers such as Spin and Eviscerate.|
Originally Posted by Moghedien_EU
Recently the aoe knockback of the mastermind lich and mastermind bruiser were changed to knockdown due to balance and performance issues.....
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When I play my Claws scrapper I'm bouncing all over the place to get the right angle for Shockwave to put the mobs exactly where I want them. I even use the power to toss mobs into the area of a Tanker's taunt aura. Yeah, I use KB to help a tanker who's trying to herd.
When I started out I didn't really like the KB. But over time I learned to like it and take advantage of it. Since a player was never really in control of the KB->KD power changes on the MM pets, there was no one who had a vested interest in keeping the power that way.
Perhaps a better solution would be to allow people who don't like KB to slot a new kind of -KB IO in the power, or slot Immobilize and Immobilize sets in KB powers. The immobilize would act as a negative enhancement to the KB power. Add enough and the knockback is turned into knockdown. Add too much and the knockdown goes away completely. It would be at a penalty, of course, since you couldn't slot other types of enhancement.
Such a change would be applicable across all powersets that have knockback, and would be welcomed by thousands of players.
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OK how about I suggest that one of your powers that you use all the time loses a slot ?|
Originally Posted by RabidBrian
I will give this a yes every time I see it suggested because of the simple fact that it DOES NOT take away any tactics.
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That is what you are suggesting, that to keep using a power of mine the way it has been for 5 years, that suddenly I have to 'waste' a slot on a knockback enhancer ? Thats less damage, less recharge, less accuracy or increased endurance. (For me it would bea combination, as all of my slots are at least dual IO)
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Originally Posted by Liquid
I'm curious, though. When there is no corner to push them into (which is the vast majority of the time, in my experience), do you still use Shockwave? Do you change your behavior if you're on a team vs. solo?
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I really wonder what % of missions are actually outdoor. Even outdoors there is frequently something to push groups against
I do adjust teamed versus solo, but not any really more than any other damage dealer, I would bring.
Heck, I still recall one very happy Shard TF with 4 claws scrappers. The Rularru didn't stand a chance with 4 shockwaves as an opening, the spwans just vanished.
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@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Point: The Back is in place to counter potentially overpowered AoE output.
Counterpoint: Scrappers must be overpowered against +4s. |
Quote:
| Would I like to see it? Knowing the power of my scrapper's claws against 54s when cycling FU, Spin, Shockwave, repeat? Oh hell yea. |
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Quote:
I asked Castle about this when Inventions were introduced. He said he'd check to see if it was possible, but he didn't know if it was. I never heard anything else, so I'd assume it's not.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
Perhaps a better solution would be to allow people who don't like KB to slot a new kind of -KB IO in the power, or slot Immobilize and Immobilize sets in KB powers. The immobilize would act as a negative enhancement to the KB power. Add enough and the knockback is turned into knockdown. Add too much and the knockdown goes away completely. It would be at a penalty, of course, since you couldn't slot other types of enhancement.
Such a change would be applicable across all powersets that have knockback, and would be welcomed by thousands of players. |
Because of the varying magnitudes on KB powers, you'd probably have to have an enhancement that set the KB value instead of just reducing it by some percentage. And that may not be possible.
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Quote:
Bad wording on my part. Against 54s, your damage output drops enough that the KB becoming KD is acceptable. I don't agree with Brutes having having a higher knock AT modifier.| Is the Counterpoint really a counterpoint, then? The latter makes it sound like you think it's evidence in support of the theory. |
I know this, though: the knockback in SW isn't stopping my claws/ea from tearing through spawns with all three AoEs.
The knockback in SW won't be stopping me from going full tilt dual builds on Bill Z with the secondary build going AoE nuts for farming.
There are days that I would be upset if I lost the KB in SW. It's hilarious to use that as my alpha strike. It's mitigation is huge and potentially larger with Back. (Ever knock a spawn off a bridge/cliff/building to buy yourself some time?) The hilarity would die with the loss of Back.
Sometimes it's better to laugh at flailing bodies than to only be an engine of destruction.
Honestly, I'm torn on the issue. From a pure damage output standpoint, of course SW only dealing KD wins, but I'd hate to lose the fun of the KB.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
I will give this a yes every time I see it suggested because of the simple fact that it DOES NOT take away any tactics. All you have to do is slot it with ONE kb enhancement to change it back to kb. Any arguement against this change holds no ground in my eyes. If the one enhancement change destroys your toon, you were doing something wrong. You dont even have to put in a pure kb io, it could be a kb/rech, end, acc, whatever.
This comes up a lot. Obviously it gets mixed results every time, but in the past a majority of the people who posted on the topic have been in favor of the change. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Honestly, I'm torn on the issue. From a pure damage output standpoint, of course SW only dealing KD wins, but I'd hate to lose the fun of the KB.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I really wonder how you can say you would loose damg if shockwave was changed to KD instead of KB....|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
OK how about I suggest that one of your powers that you use all the time loses a slot ?
That is what you are suggesting, that to keep using a power of mine the way it has been for 5 years, that suddenly I have to 'waste' a slot on a knockback enhancer ? Thats less damage, less recharge, less accuracy or increased endurance. (For me it would bea combination, as all of my slots are at least dual IO) Corner is the best, walls work pretty well, and most of the missions run are indoor, so yes I still use shockwave and basically in the same way. I really wonder what % of missions are actually outdoor. Even outdoors there is frequently something to push groups against I do adjust teamed versus solo, but not any really more than any other damage dealer, I would bring. Heck, I still recall one very happy Shard TF with 4 claws scrappers. The Rularru didn't stand a chance with 4 shockwaves as an opening, the spwans just vanished. |
Often you dont pack mobs with shockwaves knockback but in case of big groups knocking parts of the group back out of spin range, therfore decreasing the damg output by a huge chunk.
Even if you position yourself every group to try to knock them ALL into a packed corner, you loose a huge chunk of damg, just by trying to position yourself instead of starting to aoe right away...
In case of your 4 claws scrappers example.... i doubt the outcome would have been any different if shockwave dealt KD instead of KB.......
Knockback in powers is ok for mostly ranged toons but on meele toons knockback is couterproductive and very annoying.......imo
Recently the aoe knockback of the mastermind lich and mastermind bruiser were changed to knockdown due to balance and performance issues.....
Me and i think a lot of other claws players would appreciate if you changed the knockback to knockdown...
Btw is there a strange or stupid reason scrapper shockwave deals knockdown to +4 mobs and brute shockwave deals knockback ?