Id rather there just be less advertising in general , if its someone thats actively playing and paying for the game then no biggie go to it and good luck but my tolerance ends there .
If I suddenly need to wade through a bunch of sale advertisements where people whom aren't playing and paying for the game are trying to get my money on a forum where we are supposed to be posting art and screenshots then I sorta have a problem with that .
I guess it will just be easier to get a mod to weigh in one way or another about advertising for services on this forum
If a mod says "post as much advertising spam as you'd like for outside services " I have this very artistic futon i've been trying to get rid of i'll make sure to doodle a Statesman fighting Lord Recluse on it .
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Lines are definitely no good.|
Originally Posted by GrayHuntress
First off, I hope the thread doesnt begin to draw lines between local artists, outside artists, and appreciators. Once these lines are actively referenced, it can quickly lead some members of our community to develop stereotypical fallacies meant to include the majority of each group. Id hate for the several artist friends Ive made to begin seeing me as an ungrateful vampire who sucks their creative juices for my own pleasure. Similarly, I wouldnt want any of my appreciator friends to view artists as vending machines of art, where the transaction is as simple as dropping in some spare change.
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I'd never think of you as a vampire Gray
You are one of the most supportive and appreciative appreciators around here and a good friend as well.
As an artist on this forum, I've always felt appreciated. Many people, artist or not, have included my character in their work. And the vast majority of people have been supportive when I post up something.
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That assumes that the artist does not have a job or does not commission art themselves. Which, quite a few artists do. Unfortunately your example is a bad one, because *everyone* needs to make a living, but not everyone can produce art. |
Originally Posted by Caemgen
And our time is as precious as yours... Not all of the non-artists may understand just how long and how much effot it takes you to create the arts but then again the artists cannot know how much time and effort went into the buyer to making the money to purchase - how many hours they may have worked for it, what they may be scrimping on that month to get it. Can we just all assume everyones time is precious whether it be spent doing art, working some job they probably hate or spending time with family and friends?
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It gets worse when you see that there's quite a few artists that freely give away their art here. Do you freely give away your money? I don't see free money threads here on the forums. If you really wanted to compare the two, then that's what would need to happen to make it equal.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
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If I work at Burger King and the artist works or worked at Burger King then yeah, the artist gets how much time I spent to earn the money, how hard it was, etc etc... But frankly the artist doesn't know what I do for a living and thus doesn't know. Just as someone who doesn't do art doesn't know how much time, effort, etc is spent at that. *shrug* |
Originally Posted by Suichiro
That assumes that the artist does not have a job or does not commission art themselves. Which, quite a few artists do. Unfortunately your example is a bad one, because *everyone* needs to make a living, but not everyone can produce art.
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The point is that the artist gives up time to create the art. The buyer gives up time to earn money to purchase the art. If both agree on what they consider a fair trade then... well, it's a fair trade. To suggest one persons time is more precious than anothers, to me, is wrong.
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| It gets worse when you see that there's quite a few artists that freely give away their art here. Do you freely give away your money? I don't see free money threads here on the forums. If you really wanted to compare the two, then that's what would need to happen to make it equal. |
Besides those, I have given money away plenty of times... Generally it has been to people I have known in real life, to what I considered worthy charities, to political campaigns, to bums on the street... But there has been a few times I gave money to people I had never met who I believed needed it. (I'm a freaking saint, come to think of it...)
The thing about those times I've given away that money... It never made me think my time was more precious than anyone elses, that I was better than anyone else, or that I deserved extra consideration... When I make a gift of something, be it cash or otherwise, it is a gift pure and simple.
I dont like the way these arguments are falling on top of the regular art appreciators. the folks who frequent these boards on a regular basis do not deserve to be accused of not appreciating the art they get, TA writes me a novel everytime I've done anything art wise for him or anyone else has, He definetly appreciates the art and he has been a great supporter to me and many others. To tell you the truth I am deeply saddened by the fact that TA's good intentions have ended in these debates He is someone who has selflessly put himself out of ALOT of hours to make the recources available for both artists and collectors and is always willing to help anyone who contacts him. So to see he's efforts knocked down in shambles this way is something that almost phisically pains me to see.
I have recently worked with caemgen on a commission and if it wasn't already appharent by he's generosity in hosting competitions for the folks here on the boards. buying art locally with cashoo and foo and allowing chances for folks who normally can't afford commissions the chance to win art, No doubt taking a fair bit of time out of he's life to organise those for no personal gain what so ever. I know first hand of he's appreciation of an artist and there time. so he does not deserve to have to defend himself agianst claims that he takes adventage of artist's.
Gray huntress is one of the nicest people I have ever met. I have talked to gray at leangths about art and the artist's on this forum and have been presented no evidance of any sort of malicious art leeching. when ever any of the artist's around here post a need for assistance gray is always willing to show support and certianly doesnt deserve to come under fire. (I should also mention gray has paid for commissions that include my characters and also since starting watching me has purchased a commission from me everytime I have opened up, so there is loyalty from the appreciators aswell)
I can say also that I have worked with jophiel (who has also hosted a contest), Kat , ghost, CR and numerous others and they have not been anything other then absolute pleasures. I dont know anyone who has shown a sense of ungraciousness in recieving art in a long time. we really need to watch the general comments because alot of the folks around here do not deserve to be lumped into the catagory of being users.
It's an artist's responsibility to charge an amount that makes their work worthwhile to themeselves, you cant blame the customer because your giving it out cheap or free. some of them wouldnt mind paying more as it is. we are all only human and can't be expected to read minds.
Gifts are supposed to be selfless. I understand it gets frustrating when you give and give and feel like your getting nothing back for it and I have a simple salution for the problem, Stop giving so much, think about yourself so you don't develop a chip on your shoulder, because you really don't want to turn your bitterness on folks that don't deserve it. especially folks that are more then willing to help you out in most instances.
nothing personal I like a number of folks you have mentioned but telling me that I should go along with someones oponion and not have an oponion of my own because they spend alot of time and effort collecting art is pretty goofy .
obviously a number of us think there are art leeches here , have issues with the forums becoming commercialized or even the forums becoming commercialized with folks shilling for people that don't even play the game .
I'll be happy to call out names if you like as your argument is based on names it seems and im fairly sure for each amazing display of humanity you show I can showcase a wretched example of the same .
mainly im just annoyed at the idea of commercializing the board more than it is , art leeches I just ignore so that subsection of this argument isn't all that intresting to me .
personally TA's idea sickens me so i'll just continue doing what i've been doing , complaining about it and forwarding complaints to the mods until they make a call one way or another .
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Originally Posted by Deebs
nothing personal I like a number of folks you have mentioned but telling me that I should go along with someones oponion and not have an oponion of my own because they spend alot of time and effort collecting art is pretty goofy .
obviously a number of us think there are art leeches here , have issues with the forums becoming commercialized or even the forums becoming commercialized with folks shilling for people that don't even play the game . I'll be happy to call out names if you like as your argument is based on names it seems and im fairly sure for each amazing display of humanity you show I can showcase a wretched example of the same . mainly im just annoyed at the idea of commercializing the board more than it is , art leeches I just ignore so that subsection of this argument isn't all that intresting to me . personally TA's idea sickens me so i'll just continue doing what i've been doing , complaining about it and forwarding complaints to the mods until they make a call one way or another . |
when did i say you shouldn't have an opinion of your own? I simply stated that suichiro was being very general. There are alot of great people here that appreciate every single picture they are given. some of which are friends of mine, as close as you and suichiro are and they have been offended at the things mentioned in this thread and have not deserved it. I have no problem with the sale thread personally but at this point I believe the boards are better off without it purely because of the drama it has caused, but at the end of the day whether you like the idea of the thread or not you cant possibly believe TA did it to harm anyone on this forum? the man spends 20 hours plus weekly of he's time trying to organize a resource for other people and that is a good sign of humanity. for whatever inadvertent acts, he has done alot for this art community in general and I believe he only has the best intentions.
if you want to drop names go ahead. there probably are some folks take the artists for granted and I would rather them named specifically then have the entire group insulted by generalization.
I like giving away free art so I can run my experimentations. I also like being paid, but haven't had a day of difficulty grabbing and running my commissions since I launched my site. Overall, THIS COMMUNITY has made my budding artistic aspirations nothing but a joy.
So... whatever this system is, it works for me. I couldn't read through every post on the entire thread (I should be consulted as to when you people are going to start posting novels so this can only be done when I have a free weekend, GEEZ), but I figured I'd throw in my actual experience so there wasn't an over-abundance of hypotheticals.
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Drop out of college and start doing commissions again, okay?|
Originally Posted by Wassy
I like giving away free art so I can run my experimentations. I also like being paid, but haven't had a day of difficulty grabbing and running my commissions since I launched my site. Overall, THIS COMMUNITY has made my budding artistic aspirations nothing but a joy.
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Thanks. Appreciate it.
Yeah.... I think I'd sooner tear my eyes out with rusted tweezers than drop out. But I appreciate the sentiment!
I'll be free again... uh.... someday. The commissions should look much nicer afterwards, though!
To try to keep this thread from just becoming an argument thread, I have a question for the artists:
When you've been commissioned and send out a rough sketch for approval to the buyer, how do you feel about them sharing the sketch with others?
I'm thinking more sharing with a couple friends privately rather than posting publicly but I'd be interested in whatever...
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Well, duh! That's why I said I appreciated it! |
Originally Posted by Wassy
Yeah.... I think I'd sooner tear my eyes out with rusted tweezers than drop out.
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I can't speak for any other artist, but I hate sending out roughs. First of all they are roughs. Secondly, there's no way for a client to have the exact same vision you have, or viceversa, so the rough becomes a "translator" speaking a language dialect neither person shares. Which isn't the job of the rough in the first place. I feel the rough is a) to show the client you've got something to build on, and b) a service to them based out of courtesy. You don't have to give a rough, it's a just a nice thing to do.
I'm currently only giving clients 2 things, my base pencils, and the finish, and both at the end simultaneously. Only because I am staggeringly behind, well in my own opinion. I do have wonderful clients like Gray Huntress who care more about my health and creativity as a person and artist, rather than the unfinished pieces she paid for ages ago... or a month ago.
I could show all the stages, like I used to do, post them here, but I find I am only doing so to get community feedback, and constantly checking the thread I made to see that. When I could be starting a new piece, or thinking of a new piece free of my own guilt... So I'm sort of here but not here for a few weeks.
LJ
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That's an interesting question because I had it come up (of sorts) recently. I was posting a piece done of Tally-Ho and, in discussing her reticule, I mentioned that the artist was going to draw it in but circumstances changed it. I then posted a rough showing the originally intended pose complete with reticule hardware.|
Originally Posted by Caemgen
When you've been commissioned and send out a rough sketch for approval to the buyer, how do you feel about them sharing the sketch with others?
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I deliberated a little bit on whether or not to share the rough since it obviously wasn't intended for public display and ultimately cropped it down to just the head to make my point without posting the whole thing.
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You'll have to excuse me for scoffing at your statement that buying art is doing alot for the community ,|
Originally Posted by Eddy_Swan
when did i say you shouldn't have an opinion of your own? I simply stated that suichiro was being very general. There are alot of great people here that appreciate every single picture they are given. some of which are friends of mine, as close as you and suichiro are and they have been offended at the things mentioned in this thread and have not deserved it. I have no problem with the sale thread personally but at this point I believe the boards are better off without it purely because of the drama it has caused, but at the end of the day whether you like the idea of the thread or not you cant possibly believe TA did it to harm anyone on this forum? the man spends 20 hours plus weekly of he's time trying to organize a resource for other people and that is a good sign of humanity. for whatever inadvertent acts, he has done alot for this art community in general and I believe he only has the best intentions.
if you want to drop names go ahead. there probably are some folks take the artists for granted and I would rather them named specifically then have the entire group insulted by generalization. |
I've been drawing and posting here since not long after I joined CoH I enjoy this section of the forumsTrying to turn the art forum into the used car lot section of the newspaper where you can find amazing deals and bargins isn't striking me as a great community builder
Espescially considering how down the mods are on real world transactions , go take a look at the market section were it explicitly outlines this , heck even here we aren't allowed to discuss prices and now someones trying to push the real world transactions issue more out front ...great community builder there .
I come here to post art and view art relating to the City of Heroes MMO , art either made or purchased by folks that actively play the game .
if your not playing the game why should I have to view advertisements while perusing the forums for someone thats not even playing .
and if your friends are getting offended perhaps theres more than a little truth in what suichis saying , im glad you pointed out me and suich are friends as if that somehow invalidates me having an oponion ..its like me pointing out your a comission based artist and your friends list seems to be populated with folks that comission you whom you might not wanna offend .
Eh it seems these type of threads always come up when my sub is out. :P
Anyways on the first topic I never really thought about it till this thread came up, probably becuase I haven't started taking commissions yet.
Crestent lvl 50 Mind/Emp Controller http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...cGallary-1.jpg
http://crestent.deviantart.com/
http://www.creyindustries.com/viewhero.php?id=21809
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To bottom line it for me (not that I think you care but I enjoy typing):
-- All things being equal, I'd rather buy from a local artist. I appreciate the few freebies I've gotten very much, enjoyed the conversation, seeing other people's characters rendered in various styles, etc. I wish I could participate more in the creative end of the forum but that's not the talent God gave me. Regardless, this forum is my first stop on the boards and the locals are a major factor in that.
-- I may not buy from a local artists because of various reasons that made things not equal: Long queues/lack of commission slots, current pricing, personal disinterest in their style, I already have art from them and want to diversify, etc.
-- I think some artists here I've never seen their DA pages and think the Local Artist list will be a great thing. Some of the factors above may be fulfilled by locals who I just didn't know could provide what I wanted.
-- Although I'd rather buy from the locals, I can't feel guilty about going abroad if circumstances take me there because my art budget is limited and getting something that'll bring me the most pleasure has to be a priority. Buying art is a luxury and I want to feel good about the final results.
And that's about that.