Phantom Army Slotting

Why's that? I don't know any Tankers that lose sleep over an alpha attack. The only people that worry about those are Blaster, Controller, or Defenders.

I know that which is why I mentioned it in the first place, but in truth I still don't think I would ever slot the proc because the damage is not that impressive to me.

Well, with Rad, you are multiplying that extra damage by 22.5% because of the resistance debuff. Storm and TA get an extra 30% of extra damage from debuffs. So every little bit of extra damage has a big impact.

Kinetics doesn't have any debuffs to benefit Phantom Army, so the added damage will have much less of an effect.

Good googly moogly did I misread the post I was referring to.......I thought you said a lot of tank you know have trouble with alpha. Looking back at the post I have no idea why I read it that way. Time to take my meds..............

At 24th level, I went with a set of 4 of Call for Arms (A/R, A/D, A/D/R, E/D/R). Although the numbers obviously lower at this mid-level, it makes them really effective. And the +2.5% recov, +1.5% health and 6.25% rech set bonuses for 4 are really nice (and cheap). Whether it's with ER or CfA, it's sweet indeed.

Recently started my first ill/rad controller. The tank asked me not to use phantom army cause it can knockback the mobs. Is this a usual request or a personal quirk? Nothing was said to the keld in squid form though. Just trying to get a feel for phantom army and when to use it without ticking people off. Personally I felt a bit incomplete without it.

I of course complied with his request and the team did fine, it was just a bit less enjoyable I guess.

The tank didn't know what he was talking about. There is NO knockback in Phantom Army. The attacks look like a lot of different damage types, but all of the attacks are actually Psi Damage only. And none of them have knockback. By not using Phantom Army, you simply reduced the damage being done and slowed the team down.

The level 32 pet, Phantasm, is the only knockback in the Illusion Control set. And with some understanding of how Phantasm works, you can stay back away from the tank to limit the knockback, or even use it to knock foes back towards the tank.

Bad tanks can be "threatened" in their tanking ability by Phantom Army -- good tanks know how to deal with PA. Be prepared to explain to the uninformed about how your powers work, and how you can make the team better by using them. Phantom Army is the best power in the Illusion set, and you should use it often. Occasionally, you may want to hold off on using it for "this" group so that PA can be used better for "that" group, but for the most part, you want PA out as much as possible. And any tank or anyone else who complains about it doesn't know what they are talking about. It does take some practice to learn how to cast them in the right place, or lead them into battle at the right time if they have already been cast, but you have invisibility to make that much easier.

Take a look at my Illusion/Radiation Guide, linked in my sig. It has a lot of discussion about strategy.

I bet that Phanty was the one that traumatized the objecting Tank way back when, and now to him, ALL Illusion summons get labelled as out-of-control-knockback risks, even though the PA does not cause knockback.

I cannot see anyone not being cheered by the appearance of Phantom Army. They have saved the day and the bacon many times---whether they were my own or a teammate's. And with the new color schemes possible, it is pretty neat to see different teams of them go into action.

I had only one reservation about the Phantom Army when I first saw them. They kept ripping up chunks out of the floor and throwing them--- I thought for sure we were going to lose our security deposit.

Please take a look at my guide. It explains a lot about PA. Phantom Army has three Ranged attacks and five melee attacks, but all three of the ranged attacks are the same except for the animation, and all five of the melee attacks are the same except for the animation. Any one of the three phantoms who spawn can do any of the eight (or actually two) attacks. One of those ranged attacks looks like an energy blast, but all three of the ranged attacks are really the same amount of psi damage, and a portion of that damage will heal back after 5 seconds unless the foe is defeated. All five of the melee attacks are really the same amount of psi damage, and a portion of that damage will heal back after five seconds unless the foe is defeated.

They do not have specialized jobs of "tank, blaster or scrapper." They are what they are -- three invulnerable pets who can attack at range or melee, and who have a high threat level so they draw aggro.

I have read your guide, good job btw, and I completely agree. I was just posting the other side of a discussion I was having with someone else. I even went to perez park like I said I would so I could confirm it myself, before saying well the guide says this, cause I knew what the response would be. Basically my delima boils down to this: some people will just flat out refuse to conceed, even if they haven't any hands on experience. They must have been scared by phantasm doing his thing and like mentioned earlier, now attribute knockback to all illusion pets. And you know what? That's ok. For anyone else in this situation, don't waste your time trying to convince them. Offer to show them, and if they take you up on it great, but if they don't just move on. Thanks again for listening and the guide.

You seem to be nicer than I would have been under the circumstances. If a teammate asked me to not use Phantom Army, I would ask why he wants me to not use my best power. I would nicely explain that he was mistaken and that PA do not have knockback, and I can prove it. But if he insists on being ignorant, then I would announce to the team that I was quitting because the tank is a bumble-headed buffoon who won't take the word of someone who knows more than he does . . . and then quit in a snit, hopefully convincing any teammates I like to quit with me.

Sometimes I enjoy being snooty, especially when I'm right.

I wanted to chime in here, simply because I am a tanker afficianado. I despise PB's, Energy Primary blasters (even Defender Energy secondary) and Especcially Illusionists.

Let's get one things straight right here. I understand and even respect your views on an AT that you obviously Love, I myself have my own views on how Tanks are run. You or myself can write Guide after guide trying to out one another, but I personally don't have anything to proove, I simply want to state something.

I have seen in the past PA do KB. This was issues ago mind you. Things may have changed, but even so... Phantasm does do KB. This simply wont work with me. I despise KB as a tanker and it may not work for me and the way I form my teams.

When playing an Illusion Controller you must take into account that what you consider "Ignorance" may be another experienced player that has dealth with too much of something and they simply refuse to put themsvles back into that position again.

let's concede that PA does Not do KB, ok... Phantasm still does, and as a tanker I would still have to deal with it. My teammates would have to deal with seperated mobs, Bosses that you would have to chase down due to them being knocked around and even mobs that tear apart because the Aggro that PA steals can have chaos insue. None of these things work for "Me".

Cost of playing an illusion controller. And the cost of playing a tanker that likes nicley herded mobs.

On a side note, I have dealt with enough Illusion Controllers and Energy blasters, I could care less if PA does KB or not, this is because Phantasm does and it makes the PA issue a moot point. Have a nice day.

First, Phantom Army has NEVER had knockback. Not since I first came into the game in Dec. 2004.

Second, I have played plenty of tanks. My Invuln/Axe was my first tank to hit 50, and I have other high level tanks including Stone/Fire, Ice/EM, WP/Stone and Shield/SS. One of my regular partners is one of the best tanks in the game, Call Me Awesome. I seriously doubt you know more about tanking than he does.

Yes, uncontrolled knockback can be frustrating . . . but that is NOT the fault of the AT or the powerset, it is the fault of the player not knowing how to maximize the use of knockback for maximum benefit. Knockback is a part of the game, and many, many powersets have a knockback power or two. Peacebringers, Energy Blasters and Storm Defenders/Controllers are particularly known for knockback, as it is a key part of their damage mitigation. Those three have far more knockback than an Illusion Controller. But many other characters have knockback, including most of the Blaster secondaries, many of the Blaster primaries, several Defender primaries and secondaries, and even APP powersets and melee sets like Martial Arts' Crane Kick. As a tank, you need to learn how to deal with and use the knockback. Your main job is to draw aggro so that the foes are not attacking the rest of the team. If a foe is flat on its back, it is not attacking the rest of the team . . . or you, either. If you have that foe taunted, then he will come after you when he gets up.

Phantasm can be mostly controlled by using the "invisible leash" and leading him to the right places. By the right positioning, Phantasm's knockback can actually be used to make the tank's job easier. An Illusion Controller can work with a tank by staying back, pulling Phanty to the far side of foes away from the tank so that Phanty's knockback will knock foes towards the tank. And in the mean time, if Phantasm and his decoy distract and/or kill a foe, then that is one less foe you have to worry about. (If you ever want to see how it is done, I have Illusion Controllers at level 50 on Guardian, Pinnacle and Freedom, and a level 40 on Justice.)

And you should welcome Phantom Army on your teams, if the player is good. Nothing in the game is better at taking the Alpha strike than Phantom Army -- not even a max slotted Granite tank. A level 20 Illusion Controller can, for 60 seconds, tank a level 54 AV. I'd like to see how long a level 20 tank lasts. Phantom Army, when used correctly, can make a tank a better tank by allowing the tank to gather outlying foes while PA distracts the big baddies. Less healing means more endurance available to attack the bad guys.

Being a good tank isn't about your ego. It is figuring out a way to help the team as a whole take foes down safely and quickly. Phantasm provides good damage and damage mitigation. A good tank learns how to work WITH the powers that benefit the team instead of trying to ban them.

No. You haven't.

You may have seen a PA attack land at the same time as someone or something else's KB attack land, I don't know. But as Local Man said above PA has never had KB.

And I've been here even longer than him, since Issue 0, back when the lvl cap was 40 and there was no Peregrine Island.

And regarding the KB-hate? I can understand getting frustrated by it sometimes, but come on:

Firstly this post is about slotting, so assuming that someone is worse at another AT than another is moot, Thanks for your personal Jibe at my ability to play tanks... i'll move on and be the adult here son.

As to welcoming Illusion controllers to teams, I still never will. Because it's a personl playstyle. I encourage folks to play what makes them happy, and if this is what makes you happy then go for it. Just saying, be ready for ppl that can't stand Illusion Controllers.

Dealing with MA Scrappers, Storm, Energy blasters, PB's and other forms of KB is eliminated when you don't pull them into the mix. Does it hinder some teams? Never. I form my own teams, so I don't have to ***** about it.

High level tanks have more then "Draw Aggro" capability, and if you and your "Best tanker in the game" friend knew that they would also know that if your tank was worth thier salt the mob would be half dead before your team was at it's designated herd spot, or caught up to the tank on forward herds.

As to the point of the Phantasm using it's KB to push mobs, or other enemies "towards" the tank, I say this... "If the tank is worth it's weight in the team the mob should have never been spread out". Therefore making the KB unessecary and worthless anyways. And no I have no desire to see it. I spent years saying "Sure come join our team" to energy, PB, Storm, and Illusion. I now don't. It is nothing but frustrating, time consuming, and only benifits the person that is using that AT. They get frustrated because they can't "Find teams" and rightly so.... I am not the only person that distains KB. Many tanks don't deal with it either. Be prepared for this, but never take it personal. When you make this AT you understand that going into it.

As for experienced tankers, our job isn't our ego, and it sure as hell isn't to boost yours by allowing you to Knock mobs around because "it looks cool". Most tanker lovers run daily trying to find the perfect herd, and they love it. KB just doesn't allow for that. So, it makes for 2 AT's that will probably never get along. Doesn't mean I am right and it doesnt mean you are right, it just means be prepared to meet those among the tanker crowd that can't stand and will not allow you to team with them. And if you think that makes us idiots, or bad players because it doesn't suit your style of "Having fun" then so be it. At least I didn't have to deal with the chaos that Illusion brings to any team.

So you exclude every blaster with the Energy Secondary? Which just happens to be the single most popular secondary? Power Thrust is the power every one of them is forced to take a level 1. On my blasters, I like having a knockback power as a "get out of my face" power. Knockback is an important part of the game, and it has a very "superpowered" feel. I could go through every powerset in the game, and a substantial percentage of them have a knockback power. Your problem isn't knockback -- it is people who don't know how to limit or control knockback.

Well, I think we had just better agree to disagree, and leave it at that. I have found that learning to deal with knockback in a way that helps the team instead of being a problem is one of the really fun parts of certain builds. My Energy Blaster likes to fly overhead, so that his blasts knock foes down instead of back. My Storm Controllers and Defenders only use Gale and Tornado in limited situations to avoid being a problem, and Hurricane is a strategic power for me. And there are folks out there who are better at handling knockback than I am. Illusion has less knockback than many powersets. Only the pet, which isn't available until level 32, has knockback. And in general, the benefits of Phantasm far outweigh any downside.

If you want to exclude good players from your teams, it's your choice.

Actually, the AT's get along just fine. You are more correct in stating that it might be *individual players* playing those AT's who might not get along. But I wouldn't go so far as to say 'the tanker crowd'. I'm sure there are other illusionists here, as well as my own, who have never had a tanker (or a scrapper, or any other AT) take issue with an illusionist being on their team. Indeed, I've gotten some good compliments from the tankers and scrappers on my teams about how well we fight together. A good illusionist can accelerate the pace and speed at which enemies are taken out by the team.

Sure, in the hands of a poor player, an illusionist can mess things up. That's true, though, of any AT. On the other hand, to blindly exclude an AT from your team might mean missing having the asset of a highly skilled player on your team. But, as in all things in this game, that's your choice - neither right or wrong - just a chosen limitation.

I thought I'd just go ahead and link the City of Data page for decoys to help drive in the point about knockback etc. but was fascinated to see they have three attacks normally associated with KB, that have had the KB neutered out of them, wonder why people think they do KB!?

http://coh.redtomax.com/data/powers/...?id=Pets_Decoy

Plus Illusion has that other pet which does do sporadic knockback with his Energy Attacks, so it's not surprising people think the PAs do it.