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Aww did I miss meeting about which part of the world we each get? |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
ummm.. dude... you miss the memo or somethin?
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Seriously though I must be oblivious because I don't notice much change in damage...
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Aye, such is why I mentioned the low damage ceiling. I don't think that term would be appropriate for normal brute powers |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Normally, that wouldn't be a problem due to Fury... except for that sticky issue of psuedo pets only having a 400% dmg cap. So a Scrapper's BU + Shield Charge (95% dmg enhancement) > Brute's Shield Charge damage capped at 400%.
[edit: By 'normally,' I mean for all non-psuedo pet damage powers.] |
Sucks for brute SC, well it sucked before this change too, just sucks more relative now heh. I think it is a bigger issue for brute burn as it has the low cap and fury only works for a sec or so on it.
At any rate I think there is enough precedent to make the demand that ALL psuedo-pets get changed to adhere to AT balancing metrics. The issue present in dark miasma eclipses Shield charge as far as inter AT balance goes.
I'll be happy to fire up my bs/shield even more often when this goes live though.
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The change is on Test, not Live. It's a 50% damage increase, so you'll notice it when it hits... either that or I'll have to remember never to trust anecdotal evidence from you. |
Originally Posted by Santorican
Seriously though I must be oblivious because I don't notice much change in damage...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Aye, such is why I mentioned the low damage ceiling. I don't think that term would be appropriate for normal brute powers
Sucks for brute SC, well it sucked before this change too, just sucks more relative now heh. I think it is a bigger issue for brute burn as it has the low cap and fury only works for a sec or so on it. At any rate I think there is enough precedent to make the demand that ALL psuedo-pets get changed to adhere to AT balancing metrics. The issue present in dark miasma eclipses Shield charge as far as inter AT balance goes. |
(You probably know that burn deals the same [edit: base] damage on a Brute as it does a Tanker and Scrapper, too.)
Don't forget Blizzard... (Hmm, interesting, Blasters and Defenders summon the same pet, but Corruptors get a different version. Not only do all of them do the same damage, but the Corruptors' Scourges and has one of the ticks no longer flagged as PvE specific.)
Im glad that they're finaly goin to fix Shield Charge but...Will it Crit, like its supoosed to?
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From reading that it looks like its gettin the correct damage values but it dosnt say anything about the Criticals.
Scrappers
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Originally Posted by Bud
Im glad that they're finaly goin to fix Shield Charge but...Will it Crit, like its supoosed to?
From reading that it looks like its gettin the correct damage values but it dosnt say anything about the Criticals. |
Scrapper secondary damaging abilities never Crit'ed. It would make sense that they all did however, but i don't think they are going to go into doing something like that right now i think that much is a little further down the road. I would like to see them edit the scrapper LR for it to crit as well though seeing that it IS currently a primary skill power.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Scrapper secondary damaging abilities never Crit'ed. It would make sense that they all did however, but i don't think they are going to go into doing something like that right now i think that much is a little further down the road. I would like to see them edit the scrapper LR for it to crit as well though seeing that it IS currently a primary skill power.
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Aww thats a shame, but i guess we gotta take what we're given.
What i dont understand is how Epic Pools can crit and yet secondaries dont...Confuzles my lil' scrapper brain. >.>
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Makes you want to just...flip out and kill stuff?
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Originally Posted by Bud
What i dont understand is how Epic Pools can crit and yet secondaries dont...Confuzles my lil' scrapper brain. >.>
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Makes you want to just...flip out and kill stuff?
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Always. <twitch>
Be well, people of CoH.
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50% damage increase? Wow Shield Charge just went from ridiculously good ludicrously over powered lol. With Soul Drain and AAO I'm pretty sure I'll be close to it's enhanceable damage cap.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
The change is on Test, not Live. It's a 50% damage increase, so you'll notice it when it hits... either that or I'll have to remember never to trust anecdotal evidence from you.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Originally Posted by Bud
Im glad that they're finaly goin to fix Shield Charge but...Will it Crit, like its supoosed to?
From reading that it looks like its gettin the correct damage values but it dosnt say anything about the Criticals. |
Hehe, ask stalkers if they'd like L-rod to crit for them?
For me the 200 base damage on L-rod and SC for scrappers just feels a bit too high. It's not even a challenge to get them up into the 700's for damage, which is as good or better than blaster rain of arrows. Ya they recharge a bit slower, but they are still pretty much crash-less nukes that are awesome with built in teleport and aoe knockdown.
They are really fun to use, huge fun actually, but they sort of make a lot of other powers look like crap. ie I'd take a 90 sec rech on inferno with no crash and the base damage of L-rod (+firedot) in a heartbeat. Also what about poor old burn, it is utter trash compared to Shield Charge in actual use.
I don't want SC or L-rod lowered because they have made it abundantly clear that this is a hack n' slash game now and they are perfect powers for that genre. I'd much rather a big list of other powers get moved into the same category (ie all blast set t9's for starters).
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Originally Posted by Santorican
50% damage increase? Wow Shield Charge just went from ridiculously good ludicrously over powered lol. With Soul Drain and AAO I'm pretty sure I'll be close to it's enhanceable damage cap.
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Its not OP, when you factor in its recharge time especially at all. Its already at half the DPS of any normal aoe attack, even foot stomp which also has a large area and knockdown.
Shield charge was actually underpowered. Its more useable now thankfully. You can't just look "ooo big number" and think its ok. You have to factor in the entire power. And really, keep not forgetting that its on a 90 second base timer, which is HUGE as attacks go, even mini nukes like RoA, its still lower damage with a much longer recharge.
Shield charge is much better now with appropriate damage.
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It does Wayyyy too much damage for a defensive set. They should never have had the damage that high for any class be it Brute, tank or scrapper. They should should nerf the damage by AT LEAST 50% if not more across all classes. Problem solved.
I think the original intention was shield charge would Knock down your enemy to help protect you from hits.
But, what actually happens is on 10+ mobs, I kill 9+ mobs instantly and the one boss or Lt is left standing. No knock dead to mitigate damage. Just plain dead mobs.
Scrapper Shield Charge is definitely overpowered with the new change. You can't just look at the power in a vacuum and say it's OK because it's balanced with other AoEs and has a long recharge. The point is, because it has extremely high damage and high recharge it can be mixed very well with other AoEs, on top of other AoEs. It outperforms any other damage tool in any other melee secondary by far, except Burn in ideal conditions - and let's be honest here, how often does that actually happen ? On top of that, it also KDs... I mean, it KDs the few things left alive after you use it. 
Shield Defense was already the best set and it just got even better. Sure would be nice to open all primaries to that powerset if the devs are just going to keep buffing it over and over.
I'm going to go out on a limb but I think most of us are forgetting that a lot of people still don't use inventions. With SOs I'm pretty certain that it wouldn't be anything near what we're comparing it to.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
SOs or IOs don't matter much when the imbalance already shows up while comparing base numbers.
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Meh, if it's OP on scrappers after being boosted to scrapper-appropriate damage, then it was already OP on tankers and brutes. Which is a case I'm not going to argue either way, SD seems awfully uber to me, compared to what my fire/fire tanker gets in the other "give up survivability, gain damage" armor set.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
SOs or IOs don't matter much when the imbalance already shows up while comparing base numbers.
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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There's a thread talking about the gross disparity between SetIO defense and dam-res buffs.|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Meh, if it's OP on scrappers after being boosted to scrapper-appropriate damage, then it was already OP on tankers and brutes. Which is a case I'm not going to argue either way, SD seems awfully uber to me, compared to what my fire/fire tanker gets in the other "give up survivability, gain damage" armor set.
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That would explain the why SD gets uber and FA gets left in the dirt. Well... that and nerfed burn.
Be well, people of CoH.
If they made RotP act like some sort of Strength of Will clone when you weren't dead, I'd be pretty satisfied with FA. (I'd take an Unstoppable/Elude clone too, but hey.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Shield is one of the worst survival secondaries available to a scrapper. Its only viable when you add IOs to it. It's not a vacuum to say that it has a 90 second recharge, it DOES. I would take a pbaoe damage aura over it any day of the week. But i'll make do with it as long as it has enough damage.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Scrapper Shield Charge is definitely overpowered with the new change. You can't just look at the power in a vacuum and say it's OK because it's balanced with other AoEs and has a long recharge. The point is, because it has extremely high damage and high recharge it can be mixed very well with other AoEs, on top of other AoEs. It outperforms any other damage tool in any other melee secondary by far, except Burn in ideal conditions - and let's be honest here, how often does that actually happen ? On top of that, it also KDs... I mean, it KDs the few things left alive after you use it.
Shield Defense was already the best set and it just got even better. Sure would be nice to open all primaries to that powerset if the devs are just going to keep buffing it over and over. |
And pbaoe damage aura's outdamage shield charge by FAR. Not all in one shot, but every mob, every enemy, all the time.
Everyone also seems to forget, that the set has AAO to boost shield charge. Take that out of the equation and it starts to detriment what shield charge is doing. If you could have a damage aura constantly being boosted by AAO, the difference would be quite noticeable. Its part of the only reason i'll only EVER play super strength with a defense set that has one. Perma rage + damage aura is a thing of BEAUTY.
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Quote:
The bolded part just isn't true. Well it is true before SO's, but that's about it.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Shield is one of the worst survival secondaries available to a scrapper. Its only viable when you add IOs to it. It's not a vacuum to say that it has a 90 second recharge, it DOES. I would take a pbaoe damage aura over it any day of the week. But i'll make do with it as long as it has enough damage.
And pbaoe damage aura's outdamage shield charge by FAR. Not all in one shot, but every mob, every enemy, all the time. Everyone also seems to forget, that the set has AAO to boost shield charge. Take that out of the equation and it starts to detriment what shield charge is doing. If you could have a damage aura constantly being boosted by AAO, the difference would be quite noticeable. Its part of the only reason i'll only EVER play super strength with a defense set that has one. Perma rage + damage aura is a thing of BEAUTY. |
SO's
Blazing aura (best damage aura for scraps)
13.8/2 = 6.9 dps base
add 95% SO's and 47.47 sec cycle on bu
=95%+(.21*100%)
=6.9*2.16
=14.9 dps
Shield charge
200/47.87
=4.18 dps base
add 95% SO's, 100% bu, 81% AAO
=4.18*3.76
=15.72 dps
with 3 targets in AAO
=13.72 dps
With just SO enhances Shield Charge is already better than the best damage aura and that isn't even factoring in that it has a much larger aoe, which in practice is a very large factor, I mean 20ft radius vs 8ft...
Hopefully everyone is aware that +rech will continue to benefit SC immensely, but do almost nothing for the damage aura (aside from bring the uptime of BU a bit higher).
ie 50% global rech and hasten on top of the above scenario
200/30.29 = 6.6 base dps
6.6 * 3.76
=24.83 dps
Blazing aura
6.9 base dps
.95+29.89 sec cycle on BU
.95+.335
6.9*2.28
=15.76 dps
Even adding in FE to the higher recharge scenario only brings it up to 18.73 dps which is still well below shield charge.
Heck, replace BU with perma double follow up and FE you are still only at 21.6 dps for blazing aura.
I can't think of many scenarios where the steady damage is better than the massive aoe burst damage of SC, and certainly not once you factor in the huge aoe, kd, and teleport.
Shield Charge, while a heck of a lot of fun, is ridiculous on scrappers with the new base damage.
Like seriously /fire armor is a joke compared to the offensive output of shields. Ya ya, burn and the handful of builds that can leverage it well is just great, but is it as good as AAO fueled attacks overall? I say no.
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I'd like it if you could click rotp while alive or dead. I'd be happy if all it did was the aoe damage (maybe the stun too |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If they made RotP act like some sort of Strength of Will clone when you weren't dead, I'd be pretty satisfied with FA. (I'd take an Unstoppable/Elude clone too, but hey.)
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) if used while alive. It does massive damage and if you could use it while alive you could buff that damage with bu/fe.I mean if 200 base damage on a 90 sec timer is ok with the devs than 333 base damage on a 300 sec timer shouldn't even cause a second thought.
Give me a 1300+ damage nuke on fire usable every ~100 seconds (on a decent build) and we'll have some parity between the offensive capabilities of fire armor and shields.
As it stands right now I'm planning a macro to shut off my armors so I can suicide and then blow them all up with rotp, but because I'll be dead and can't self buff it will still do less damage than Shield Charge, recharge way slower, and require defeat.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
The bolded part just isn't true. Well it is true before SO's, but that's about it.
SO's Blazing aura (best damage aura for scraps) 13.8/2 = 6.9 dps base add 95% SO's and 47.47 sec cycle on bu =95%+(.21*100%) =6.9*2.16 =14.9 dps Shield charge 200/47.87 =4.18 dps base add 95% SO's, 100% bu, 81% AAO =4.18*3.76 =15.72 dps with 3 targets in AAO =13.72 dps With just SO enhances Shield Charge is already better than the best damage aura and that isn't even factoring in that it has a much larger aoe, which in practice is a very large factor, I mean 20ft radius vs 8ft... Hopefully everyone is aware that +rech will continue to benefit SC immensely, but do almost nothing for the damage aura (aside from bring the uptime of BU a bit higher). ie 50% global rech and hasten on top of the above scenario 200/30.29 = 6.6 base dps 6.6 * 3.76 =24.83 dps Blazing aura 6.9 base dps .95+29.89 sec cycle on BU .95+.335 6.9*2.28 =15.76 dps Even adding in FE to the higher recharge scenario only brings it up to 18.73 dps which is still well below shield charge. Heck, replace BU with perma double follow up and FE you are still only at 21.6 dps for blazing aura. I can't think of many scenarios where the steady damage is better than the massive aoe burst damage of SC, and certainly not once you factor in the huge aoe, kd, and teleport. Shield Charge, while a heck of a lot of fun, is ridiculous on scrappers with the new base damage. Like seriously /fire armor is a joke compared to the offensive output of shields. Ya ya, burn and the handful of builds that can leverage it well is just great, but is it as good as AAO fueled attacks overall? I say no. |
You totally didn't read what i wrote. I said shield charge looks so good, cause you are always having AAO boosting it up. I SAID was i'd take the damage aura over it any day, MEANING if it was in place of shield charge, it would be boosted by AAO constantly.
I'll even grant a few recharge bonuses to have SC using every 40 seconds to make this easier and at max AAO, Bu on the same rech.
SC: 200.20 x (1.95 + 1 + .81) = 752.75/40 = 18.82DPS
Blazing aura: [13.76 x (1.95 + .81] = 37.98/2 = 18.98, alone without build up already beating out shield charge.
Now as the fight dwindles, AAO will go down some, we can kinda consider this a wash if we don't consider in build up, but also remember that the damage aura is constantly working, meaning it is working all the time as you are cleaining up what's left as well, bosses, tough LTs, you name it. Also factor in, that you aren't going to USE shield charge, the very second it's up every time. If it is recharging midway through a mob, you are not going to use it just because it's ready, you are going to wait to use it until you engage in the next mob.
Considering most of the mob is around you, and/or can be made to do so, you can really say they're fairly equivalent overall. While true that recharges benefit SC, also true that consistent damage buffs will boost the damage aura higher over time as well, such as the rage scenario)
It can come down to a lot of the way the enemies come about. Close, spread out, how long the fight lasts etc. Oh, and over time damage procs in damage auras are WAY more useful than they are in shield charge. Additionally just as recharge helps, slows will negatively impact shield charge, where they wouldn't affect a damage aura at all.
Edit: With the new proper damage on shield charge it puts it about almost the exact value on par with damage auras, only in a different form as a different kind of use. Seems perfectly fine to me.
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I read what you said, it was just irrelevant because no sets have AAO+damage aura. What is relevant is what is currently possible in the game.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
You totally didn't read what i wrote. I said shield charge looks so good, cause you are always having AAO boosting it up. I SAID was i'd take the damage aura over it any day, MEANING if it was in place of shield charge, it would be boosted by AAO constantly.
I'll even grant a few recharge bonuses to have SC using every 40 seconds to make this easier and at max AAO, Bu on the same rech. SC: 200.20 x (1.95 + 1 + .81) = 752.75/40 = 18.82DPS Blazing aura: [13.76 x (1.95 + .81] = 37.98/2 = 18.98, alone without build up already beating out shield charge. Now as the fight dwindles, AAO will go down some, we can kinda consider this a wash if we don't consider in build up, but also remember that the damage aura is constantly working, meaning it is working all the time as you are cleaining up what's left as well, bosses, tough LTs, you name it. Also factor in, that you aren't going to USE shield charge, the very second it's up every time. If it is recharging midway through a mob, you are not going to use it just because it's ready, you are going to wait to use it until you engage in the next mob. Considering most of the mob is around you, and/or can be made to do so, you can really say they're fairly equivalent overall. While true that recharges benefit SC, also true that consistent damage buffs will boost the damage aura higher over time as well, such as the rage scenario) It can come down to a lot of the way the enemies come about. Close, spread out, how long the fight lasts etc. Oh, and over time damage procs in damage auras are WAY more useful than they are in shield charge. Additionally just as recharge helps, slows will negatively impact shield charge, where they wouldn't affect a damage aura at all. Edit: With the new proper damage on shield charge it puts it about almost the exact value on par with damage auras, only in a different form as a different kind of use. Seems perfectly fine to me. |
Yes AAO + damage aura would be sweet. Not as good as AAO with SC though. Heck I showed well beyond what a hypothetical AAO w/ aura would be with double followup+FE on a high rech claws/fire (the absolute best possible performance you can get out of an aura btw, yes better than double rage w/ high fury brute blazing aura) and it still wasn't as good as equal recharge AAO+SC for scrappers
They are comparable sure, but then that means overlooking the value of extreme aoe burst damage that is a huge radius and makes the assumption that you are constantly fueling your damage aura, which simply is not the case (or very rarely). Every second you aren't hitting someone with your aura makes SC pull further and further ahead.
On top of the huge aoe vs the tiny aoe SC hits 16 targets and auras hit 10. If we pretended it was hard to hit 16 targets with a 20ft aoe then it is almost impossible to fit 10 targets into an 8ft aoe, but in actual gameplay it is very easy to hit 16 w/ SC and only about 7 or 8 w/ auras.
It's also vs Blazing aura which is at least 9% better than the next best aura(s)
Seriously SC is better than any aura w/ or w/o AAO, (even better than the blaster auras w/ aim and bu factored in) the fact that the set has AAO and no sets with auras do just drives another stake into the matter.
I like SC, but the scrapper version is so much better than auras that while I wouldn't put it on par with old PSW for doms it is causing me to reminisce.
Don't get me wrong, I'm using it on my BS/shield and I'm looking forward to when this patches to live and I can trivialize the rest of my team (especially blasters) even more, but come on.
Edit: using your 40 second cycle time the aura costs 20.8 end vs 13.5 for SC. It isn't until you slot ~60% end reduc in the aura that they end up costing the same. So SC is more damage, more valuable aoe burst damage (in most scenarios), way bigger aoe, hits more targets, provides good mitigation, and costs less endurance. Like Nihilli keeps saying, is there any reason to play anything other than shields? (aside from concept or lockedout combos).
Actually, because SC is a single event and is so easy to hit 12+ targets every second that you aren't feeding 10 targets into your damage aura SC pulls further and further ahead. And considering it already starts out ahead in the race it ends up being like this:
At a glance if you consistently only hit 4 targets with SC it would end up on par with most damage auras when used well (ie good saturation, minimal downtime between groups).
I just tested it and i was hitting for 600 in a spawn pretty easy with just AAO and BU, and 800 when hopped up on reds to 400% cap.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.