Has CoD updated for Elec Melee yet? My Elec Melee numbers are from Mids', which are 1) not as reliable, and 2) bakes in crits. Using *those* numbers, CI has a higher DPE than most scrapper PBAoEs, but lower than most melee cone. It also has a higher DPA than almost every cone so I think it sorta balances out. In fact, CI would be a pretty kick a** ST power in & unto itself, though an end hog. While I agree w/all of the OP's arguments on their face, I sorta treat CI as a high damage, short cone that I don't need to line up to use, which is to say, with minimum fuss, I'll almost always hit 2 or more mobs (yes, missing on the earlier mob screws the pooch), which means it's well worth the end costs. At least on average. Personally, I have much bigger issues w/TS's DPA (like half of CI's for the main target, paltry for the "AoE") than anything w/CI.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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The difference being that if a stray AoE takes out 1 of the 10 people, it doesn't potentially keep you from damaging the remaining 8.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I feel everyone has already made their point but I just want to clarify something I said:
No, I was actually talking about if you used Whirling Sword/Lotus Drop and a teammate splashed some damage and killed half the mobs in range. You've essentially paid for an AoE that hit fewer foes and/or received little to none of the DoT. The quirk with CI is no different from the quirk of a lag spike causing you to misfire the mentioned PBAoEs and hit *nothing*. |
That's what it does to CI.
If the charged target is killed by the splash before the charge jumps, it won't jump. Meaning that no matter how many people you would have/could have damaged, you didn't get the opportunity to damage any of them because your first target died while still charged.
Could the AoE have take out 9/10 of them? Sure, and you're then in the same boat as you would be with any AoE. But that's not the problem. There is an extra problem in addition to that that if the charged target dies before the jump, your AoE is wasted as well. It has the same quirk all AoE's have in addition the this one.
Play with it for a few levels. It happens more than you think it would.
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I have for 42 lvls of Stalker and 35 lvls of Brute and it doesn't happen so often it's an issue.
| Play with it for a few levels. It happens more than you think it would. |
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Just a thought, but perhaps due to AT differences Blueside and Redside it might happen more over here.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I have for 42 lvls of Stalker and 35 lvls of Brute and it doesn't happen so often it's an issue.
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I don't know. It seems to happen to me all the time when I team.
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It is on the low end of Armored AT attack sets. I would not call its single target damage poor. See defender/corruptor Rad Blast if you would like to experience poor single target damage.|
Originally Posted by Soulscorch
Does it have poor ST damage? Yep.
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Barb Swipe would like to have a word with you about Electric Melee Chain Induction.
The sets single target damage is good. It is not great. It is not the best single target damage set. But to call it poor is really, really pushing the boundaries of rational.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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That's why I think Stalkers get the better end of the deal with Elec melee. Not only do they get AS to shore up more ST dmg, but all the AoEs except Jacob's Ladder, work as ST attacks from hide so will crit 100% for even more ST damage. It's a general set that doesn't have much of a weakness compared to Spines (crap ST dmg) or MA/EM (*no* AoE dmg).
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is on the low end of Armored AT attack sets. I would not call its single target damage poor. See defender/corruptor Rad Blast if you would like to experience poor single target damage.
Barb Swipe would like to have a word with you about Electric Melee Chain Induction. The sets single target damage is good. It is not great. It is not the best single target damage set. But to call it poor is really, really pushing the boundaries of rational. |
Im with the OP on this one. I just got CI a couple of days ago and am actually thinking I may respec out of it on my tight Elec/Dark Armor build.
The initial attack isn't worth the end drain/recharge time in an attack chain, and the "jump" is happening so seldomly and then usually only for one jump often enough that I find it not at all worth the end cost and recharge time.
It absolutely isn't function like an AoE attack, and shouldnt be balanced as one. I mean, it doesn't even offer the chance to "crit" does it, so essentially you're trading a good chance to do double damage for a mild chance to do less than double damage on a couple of targets, for a huge increase in end and recharge time.
It's an AWESOME concept for a power, and could make the set, but it sadly isn't balanced properly.
I can see why it worked on Brutes, who primarily solo on redside, but on scrappers, which (while many solo) are often on teams, it fails to function as one would expect, and fails miserably.
wow... hating on a power BECAUSE of its horrid dmg/rech/end, i have had quite a lot of love from CI on my elec/elec brute.
but the one of the reasons I think it would have a slighlty higher end/rech than most others... is because it was most likely meant to be used with /elec because of the +end, another reason would be because it has that chance to JUMP on it. slightly higher end and rech for the ability to be able to hit a max of 5 foes, hellz yea!
I have had several people that ive teamed with on occasions on my claws/dark say "how can you stand playing /dark, its compleatly horrid on end?" i inturn reply saying "dont run EVERY single toggle, use DR in dire need" /DAs use of end is high BECAUSE dark melee has a +end power
Dont hate on a single power in a set because it 'underperforms' to other powers look at the set in a WHOLE with its 'proper' secondary set and then decide if this power is 'broken'.
PS. saying "OMG! this power is useless FIX IT" will get nothing done actually give REAL reason as to why it needs to be 'fixt', under performing compared to other proper AoEs *in my opinion* is stupid, of course its gonna crumble in comparason to the others, ELM has 2/3 other AoEs that make it for it being 'broken'
Compare LR and FS, LR fails in comparason because elm has 2 (3 if you incluse CI) other AoE that make up for it.
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I'm not sure how to politely say it... but trying to say one power or a set is balanced because it was made with a matching secondary/primary that makes it work slightly better is dumb. And if I honestly thought the dev's balanced each set around a matching primary and secondary together, I would not be playing this game, because it would make the fun of mix and matching far far less fun.|
Originally Posted by Smite_King
but the one of the reasons I think it would have a slighlty higher end/rech than most others... is because it was most likely meant to be used with /elec because of the +end,
/DAs use of end is high BECAUSE dark melee has a +end power |
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another reason would be because it has that chance to JUMP on it. slightly higher end and rech for the ability to be able to hit a max of 5 foes, hellz yea! Dont hate on a single power in a set because it 'underperforms' to other powers look at the set in a WHOLE with its 'proper' secondary set and then decide if this power is 'broken' |
I feel the power is a little high on the end and recharge, but I'll take it for that extra chance to jump. I also love the quick animation, so overall I'm happy still. But I sure wouldn't pass on a slight buff to it.
But yeah, the set overall is good. Probably the buff I would like to see if a slight damage buff on the primary target, kind of like Thunderstrike. But, with that also that CI will jump even if the target dies as long as there are nearby foes. Electricity doesn't care whether the body is still alive, it's still gonna pass through anyway... now if they can code it is a different story...
Ok my experience with CI shows it is very useful when tackeling drones and FFG's etc. so i do like the power quite a lot, tho i have had the death problem quite a bit, and that was on a brute that didn't have much fury generated, on a scrapper the base damage is quite a bit higher so this will make CI death more frequent and risky.
I personalluy think it could do with jumping even if the target is dead, and slightly lowering the either or end cost/recharge time of the power to make it more between an AOE and a STA becasue that is, after all, what it is...
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
No, I was actually talking about if you used Whirling Sword/Lotus Drop and a teammate splashed some damage and killed half the mobs in range. You've essentially paid for an AoE that hit fewer foes and/or received little to none of the DoT. The quirk with CI is no different from the quirk of a lag spike causing you to misfire the mentioned PBAoEs and hit *nothing*. |
So you're saying the power is balanced because lag spikes can cause the same thing to happen with other powers?
So lag spikes are built in to this power? That is the dumbest line of argumentation I've seen in this thread yet.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is on the low end of Armored AT attack sets. I would not call its single target damage poor. See defender/corruptor Rad Blast if you would like to experience poor single target damage.
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o.O
I think the line of argumentation above just got dethroned.
As for the Brute/Stalker to Scrapper analogy, I'm wondering if PART of the reason for the difference in impression is because villains, GENERALLY, tend to team less and in smaller teams than you often find blueside. A Brute is less likely to see his chain disrupted by a target dying before the jump, etc. Also, scrappers do stronger initial damage than a brute, so a scrapper has a stronger chance of killing their target with the first hit before it ever gets a chance to jump. Just something Im wondering.
I wonder if they could recode the summoned pet to simply ignore "death" of a target and move on regardless. Still leave in the chance that it misses, but not let the death of a target stop the chain. It goes to five people unless a)EVERYONE in radius is dead or b)it misses a target.
In my opinion, that alone would make the power seem more balanced and worth the end and recharge.
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Didn't say anything about balance. Complaining that you're 'not getting the AoE out of it' concerning CI is like complaining the same thing for PBAoEs that need no target to activate. If you don't learn when to click them you end up firing it off before any foes are registered in range or they end up dead by the AoEs of your teammate.
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So you're saying the power is balanced because lag spikes can cause the same thing to happen with other powers? So lag spikes are built in to this power? That is the dumbest line of argumentation I've seen in this thread yet. |
I spent double XP weekend leveling an elec/regen scrapper to 41, and I'm pretty disappointed in Chain Induction as well, although for a different reason than you all.
When I made the character I looked at the in game details for the damage powers, and the game states that at level 50, Chain Induction has a ridiculous DPA of like 212. I was sorely disappointed when the reality turned out to be that it had a DPA close to 40 at level 50. 
Its a fun set to play, but Chain Induction really feels like a poor ability. Its AoE is almost completely unreliable, it feels more like a single target ability, and its not a very good one at that...
Ghostveil, as drawn by Shia
I'm kinda dissappointed in Electric Melee.
I knew it's damage when I went in though.
I will say, target switching does help with making sure CI hits multiple targets.
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Honestly, if Thunder Strike wasn't such a slow attack and if Chain Induction's chaining happened instantly and continued hitting targets even after it killed one, I'd have no complaints.
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Originally Posted by LordPig
I'm kinda dissappointed in Electric Melee.
I knew it's damage when I went in though. I will say, target switching does help with making sure CI hits multiple targets. |
Ghostveil, as drawn by Shia
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I am pretty sure that is exactly how this game was designed. I am not positive if that design concept is still in use, but the devs seem to have zero problems with their being some synergy between primary/secondary combinations and they have (a long time ago) openly stated they value that in thematic combinations.
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Originally Posted by MrTogo
I'm not sure how to politely say it... but trying to say one power or a set is balanced because it was made with a matching secondary/primary that makes it work slightly better is dumb. And if I honestly thought the dev's balanced each set around a matching primary and secondary together, I would not be playing this game, because it would make the fun of mix and matching far far less fun.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Fire Melee and Fire Armor is a perfect example of that actually.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am pretty sure that is exactly how this game was designed. I am not positive if that design concept is still in use, but the devs seem to have zero problems with their being some synergy between primary/secondary combinations and they have (a long time ago) openly stated they value that in thematic combinations.
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Ghostveil, as drawn by Shia
I respeced out of this power on my Elec/SR as I recognized I needed more oomph in my build. I will take it later on when I have more powers and some Invention Sets in place. Sometimes I find a power that is offered early, is better taken later. For me at least, this power is one of those.
First you bake your cake, then you frost it.
And about the Devs intending us to use matching Primary and Secondaries . . .if this is so, does that mean Willpower is meant to be Duel Blades secondary of choice as they came out the same time?
Big, wide, mischievous grin..I am going to say it is so, because, I made my very first Duel Blades toon and Willpower is my secondary 
Lisa
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
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This power is gimped. The fix is simpler than the above. |
Originally Posted by Soulscorch
The Fix. 1) Decide whether this power is an AoE or a ST. 2) If ST, it needs higher damage, and perhaps a longer activation. We already have Havoc Punch, so it needs to be a tier 3 damage power. It has the end cost but not nearly the reliability of Thunderstrikes AoE. Give it a slight penalty for it's AoE potential, but the current recharge penalty is too high. A 1.64 damage power with 8s recharge and 8.5 end is a good place to start. 1.64 also fits nicely between the 1.32 of HP and 1.96 of TS. Maybe increase the damage to 1.64 and the recharge to 10 and call it a day. Currently it's 14s recharge and 10.2 end. Heck, if there was a way to link the Jumps to extra end usage I would take that as well. Charge an extra 3 end per successful jump. 3) If it's an AoE make it work reliably like an AoE. Get rid of the .5s delay and make it jump seamlessly. Get rid of the 3s charge as well. Make it also work if an enemy in the chain is defeated. Please do something to help this power. I love the idea and the concept, but just using it in actual gameplay, regardless of the balancing numbers is frustrating to say the least. |
The fix is to ignore whether the target dies or not (on each jump).
Next!
Please fight My Brute: http://2hero.mybrute.com
Mission Architect 54161 - Michael Mundano, Megan Malloney and the Secret Senate.
Mission Architect 91838 - Constantinople Jones' Family Secret. A One Mission Story arc.
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No, because the devs that decided Dark/Dark and Fire/Fire were meant to go together haven't worked here since the NC Soft acquisition.
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Originally Posted by McCharraigin
And about the Devs intending us to use matching Primary and Secondaries . . .if this is so, does that mean Willpower is meant to be Duel Blades secondary of choice as they came out the same time?
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Although I do believe that the devs don't care if we match certain powersets...I do believe that the fans who voted for these powersets did so because of V for Vendetta.
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Do you even know why it does that? It's not something they specifically planned on occurring. It's an issue with the jump being a pseudo-pet that is summoned at the location of the target at the same time that damage is applied. Because of the delay in the pseudo-pet being summoned and the pseudo-pet arriving, if the target, which is also the conditional location target of the pseudo-pet, dies, then the pseudo-pet no longer has a location to be summoned to, causing the pseudo-pet effect to simply not occur. It's not as simple a fix as removing a line of code that forcibly inflicts the dead target prohibition.|
Originally Posted by Hero2
This power is gimped. The fix is simpler than the above.
The fix is to ignore whether the target dies or not (on each jump). Next! |
It's for this same reason that if the target of Transfusion, Transference, or any of the numerous other targeted pseudo-pet summoning skills is killed before the pseudo-pet is actually summoned, the power fizzles. If it were as simple as telling the game to ignore whether the target is dead or not, all of those issues would already have been addressed.
If you don't know the actual root of the problem, please don't try to address the solution in a completely ignorant manner that assumes it's as easy as you blindly think it is.
If you look at the entire Electric powerset and include Lightning rod...this power set is more on the OP side... therefore your request to look at Chain Induction in a vacume and beef it up is DENIED. My two cents.
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First off, it's Dual Blades, not Duel Blades. Dual implies the use of two. Duel implies the use in a one-on-one confrontation.|
Originally Posted by McCharraigin
And about the Devs intending us to use matching Primary and Secondaries . . .if this is so, does that mean Willpower is meant to be Duel Blades secondary of choice as they came out the same time?
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Secondly, just because Dual Blades and Willpower were released simultaneously does not mean that they are matched powersets. Thematically, they have next to nothing in common except that they're both nominally "normal" powersets. You could just as easily claim that Katana and SR are matched primaries because they're similarly "normal" and were released simultaneously. If anything, they are theme neutral because they don't have a "partner" in the sense that Dark, Fire, Ice, Stone, Elec, and Energy do.
As to whether the devs intend the use of matched powersets, there is some evidence that it was originally intended as such (Dark/Dark is the biggest piece because of the sheer degree of synergy between them, Fire/Fire as well), though not as much elsewhere (Stone/Stone, Ice/Ice). Moving on to the newer sets, it's still debatable as to whether Elec/Elec has much synergy beyond the combined ability to drain endurance (which is more a demonstration of secondary benefit synergy than powerset design synergy), and it's hard to believe that Energy/Energy has much in the way of implied or real synergy.
Personally, I believe that the only real sets that were intended to be used together were Fire/Fire and Dark/Dark, which meshes with the logic that the Cryptic devs originally intended it that way (most likely out of an evolution of the older Champions inspired freeform system). None of the others really present a definable intended synergy that isn't just as well expressed with other powersets either in the original release form or the current form. Fire/Fire's only real spectacular synergy though is Fiery Embrace's greater effect upon Fire damage than every other damage type. Everything else is completely neutral. Dark/Dark is really the biggest outlier simply because it allows for stacked fears, the primary covers the secondary's high endurance costs, the secondary provides for the lower AoE damage of the primary, and a number of other noticeable synergistic benefits so it's probably the only real intended full matched set combination.
What did Siphon Life give up? How about AoE damage? The whole freaking DM set is AoE light (I am not complaining, it has many other advanatges, including the heal in SL).
ElM is extremely potent as is; CI is a fine power, which doesn't always work as well as it can, but often does. It is OK that CI sometimes falls short, especially when you look at the set as a whole, instead of just trying to look at one power individually.
Was DM a terrible set before SL got buffed? Nope. Did it/does it have poor AoE damage? Yep
Is ELM a terrible set with the current CI? Nope. Does it have poor ST damage? Yep.
Again, the reason I didn't start the first post with numbers, was because my initial problems with the power weren't the numbers. It was how the power worked.
If you want to keep the numbers the same, I'm fine with that. I'd just like a power that reliably does whatever it's supposed to do. Somehow I doubt that the power is supposed to be reliably unreliable.
Hell, keep the numbers. Keep the .5s delay. How about just make it calculate the hit or miss for 5 targets when activated so that death or movement don't affect the outcome? That would be a great starting point.