Tanker/Stalker melee set: Death Scythe!
By
Autonomous Prime,
Posted on: 2009-09-25 07:13 in Suggestions and Ideas
Forgot one. >.>
I don't know what it is with scythes lately. >.< Could be interesting. I think animating it would be the biggest hurdle (given, as I'm reading it, you're flipping the weapon and such.)
A neg dmg/buff weapon set...
We do need a new weapon set and I'd love to see a weapon set designed for neg energy because of the foe debuff/self buff. I'm not so sure a scythe is the way to go, though. Not only would animation be incredibly difficult code wise, but getting 6 - 8 different movements out of it would be hard to come up with in the first place. Some of the current weapons have some pretty similar looking attacks in their sets, and I'd hate to see another set with all the same anims, even though they would be pretty different from the current sets.
This would be perfect for the Whip Melee set, though... Whips and dark just go together perfectly in my mind. And then the base weapon could just be a short(ish) rod and the whip part could just come out on each attack.
Sorry, don't mean to derail your theme. I love scythes, I just think the animations would be prohibitively difficult and constrictive.
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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And you want this to be used by heroes?
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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By mention of "Tankers," I'd say that's obvious. There's nothing new, theme-wise, in the set.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
And you want this to be used by heroes?
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Explicitly killing your enemies, yeah, I'd say that's new.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
By mention of "Tankers," I'd say that's obvious. There's nothing new, theme-wise, in the set.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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I see the phrase "Defeated," not "Killed," despite the name. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
Explicitly killing your enemies, yeah, I'd say that's new.
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Yet, even if you go by power names or descriptions - there's still nothing new. "Headsplitter," anyone? "Disembowel?" "Beheader?" Description of Cleave:
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| This is an attempt to split your opponent in two with one fell swoop of your Battle Axe. |
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| Intense concentration can allow you to incinerate an opponent. |
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v. tr. To cause to burn to ashes. v. intr. To burn completely. |
All of these are powers used by heroes since day one (Broadsword, Battle Axe, Fire melee), two of those only *recently* ported to villainside.
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That's the bridge too far? Axes, swords, maces, arrows, assault rifles, and other deadly weapons are OK, but scythes are where you draw the line, eh?|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Explicitly killing your enemies, yeah, I'd say that's new.
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Edit: still waiting for a Great Sword set/ weapon customization
Forward this to a Redname because... ME WANT!
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I was looking for a tech scythe to add. Gundam never crossed my mind |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Forgot one. >.> |
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
A neg dmg/buff weapon set...
We do need a new weapon set and I'd love to see a weapon set designed for neg energy because of the foe debuff/self buff. I'm not so sure a scythe is the way to go, though. Not only would animation be incredibly difficult code wise, but getting 6 - 8 different movements out of it would be hard to come up with in the first place. Some of the current weapons have some pretty similar looking attacks in their sets, and I'd hate to see another set with all the same anims, even though they would be pretty different from the current sets. This would be perfect for the Whip Melee set, though... Whips and dark just go together perfectly in my mind. And then the base weapon could just be a short(ish) rod and the whip part could just come out on each attack. Sorry, don't mean to derail your theme. I love scythes, I just think the animations would be prohibitively difficult and constrictive. |
As for whips, I always associate whips with energy. In my head, whips create sonic booms (sonic is energy in this game) not to mention alot of comic book whips are usually glowing lazer whips
On an aside, are they still doing the flaming whips for the new MM set coming up? So that'd be a fire/smashing attack? But yeah, my dominator wants a whip too. If it ever expands into a melee set too, I'll be making a Whip/SR(or Willpower) Scrapper in honor of the Belmonts
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Heh, it's the first thing that did when I saw the title. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I was looking for a tech scythe to add. Gundam never crossed my mind
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(Since it happens to be called "Deathscythe." And I like the design...)
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The problem with your workaround is that the devs have actually said that they can't (or can't reliably) make entities spawn a certain distance in a specific direction from a target. Every pseudo-pet in the game is spawned at a specific location (generally at the feet of the target or feet of the caster). Unless there was a load of work done to the engine to fix all of the problems with it, you'd have to deal either a heavily bugged effect (re: pushing the target in a completely wrong direction) or do something else. If anything, the most likely effect would be a teleport effect that teleports all foes hit right next to you.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
3. Reap (ST 12ft range 90 degree cone, foe moderate lethal/neg energy dmg, long rech, knockback *Special*)
A wide, sweeping horizontal slash with the scythe that will pull foes closer to you. There have been suggestions on how to handle 'knocktoward' and how I figure this would work is it would spawn a pet 5 ft behind the target that does radial KB to those within the cone's range. It'd end up knocking them closer to you. |
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That workaround is totally unnecessary anyway. The formula for "knocktowards" is exactly the same as the formula for calculating the vector for knockback, only the positions of the caster and the target are swapped. That's not code, that's just math.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem with your workaround is that the devs have actually said that they can't (or can't reliably) make entities spawn a certain distance in a specific direction from a target. Every pseudo-pet in the game is spawned at a specific location (generally at the feet of the target or feet of the caster). Unless there was a load of work done to the engine to fix all of the problems with it, you'd have to deal either a heavily bugged effect (re: pushing the target in a completely wrong direction) or do something else. If anything, the most likely effect would be a teleport effect that teleports all foes hit right next to you.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
I cannot disagree with the notion of adding Scythe as a new weapon set, but this is as far as I'm willing to go. I don't think the step up from Scythe to DEATH Scythe is a good one, specifically because it's so specific in terms of theme. It's akin to making Broadsword into Holy Sword or Battle Axe into Barbarian's Axe. They're popular themes in myth and fiction, but in a game this customizable, something more open to interpretation and, yes, more generic is required.
Personally, I'd like to leave the DEATH Scythe concept open to those who wanted it via picking Dark Armour, but leave the weapon itself - the Scythe - available as JUST a weapon with no element attached.
Now, yes, I will admit I voted for Energy Blade in the new melee powerset poll (that and Dual Blades) but over the years, I've begun doubting my choice. Yes, a lightsabre is cool to have, but really, outside of Energy damage, how would that be different from just a regular sword? As well, isn't that exactly what the Talsorian Broadsword and Katana are? Yeah, sure, they do Lethal damage, not Energy, but they're close enough. Why, then, bother with an Energy Blade with the only difference between it and what we have being graphics and damage type? Why not focus on a weapon set that is fundamentally different, like twin blades, hammer, quarterstaff or, yes, scythe?
That's the same way I feel about this one. Yes, I would LOVE to have a Scythe as a weapon set (even if it's hugely impractical as a weapon and would require REAL talent to make look interesting in action), but I wouldn't like to see it restricted to just DEATH Scythe. Suppose I want a flaming devil from the underworld with a scythe, like what they had in Heroes of Might and Magic? Or how about just a brute with a giant scythe, like the Horned Reaper? Or, hell, why not a tiny little girl with a giant Scythe like Maka from Soul Eater? Ice, Fire, Earth, Lightning, the list of themes goes on, and it seems like a limitation to make the Scythe so narrowly focused.
All of THAT said, again, I would very much like to see a set like this.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I actually already thought of that Sam. That's exactly why all the attacks animate by you striking the foe with the scythe. Just like you could talk away the effects of Dark Melee before customization, you can do the same with Death Scythe. Really, the only effect that may not be seen as 'scythe like' is the Fear Monger power which could still be talked away as smacking the ground really hard and making an earthquake-like effect that scares people (or simply not taking the power because it's just a control power with no damage). Just think how you can have varied concepts with Dark Melee now thanks to customization.
But the main reason I went with death scythe is to give it uniqueness. If it's just a weapon, all it can do is slash the foe, cause bleed damage, knock them down, or reduce their defense. Seeing as there are already sets that do that to varying degrees, intensities and combinations, requesting a new set that doesn't really do anything different is completely against my mantra. It's why I was mad at Stalkers getting Broadsword this prolif. Not because I hate broadsword (which I kinda do) but because it's nearly identical to a set released with Stalkers (Ninja Blade). It's like if they introduced the new set 'Gem Blast' but it has the exact same effects and particles of Ice Blast but instead of shooting them from your hand, you blast gems from both hands. Who would be happy with that?
Unless they throw some complicated additional effect like Combos into the mix, I can't in all good conscience suggest another weapon set. Not because of the damage type but because of lack of new intuitive playstyles.
BUT...if the animations effectively convey the feel of a 2-handed weapon and has at least 1 thing that really really unique about it over other weapon sets, then I wouldn't be too against it just being a scythe.
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Well, yeah, but I still think we need to find something else unique about it that doesn't tie it specifically into darkness. I guess you could make it demoralising, as any large weapon would be, but...|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Unless they throw some complicated additional effect like Combos into the mix, I can't in all good conscience suggest another weapon set. Not because of the damage type but because of lack of new intuitive playstyles.
BUT...if the animations effectively convey the feel of a 2-handed weapon and has at least 1 thing that really really unique about it over other weapon sets, then I wouldn't be too against it just being a scythe. |
Well, let me extend an idea I've been throwing around for a possible Halberd set and put it in here. Let me start with a little depiction - when I think "large scythe," I think of that one iconic scene in Soul Eater (probably the only one) when Maka faces Jack the Ripper - as seen here to some truly terrible but fitting music. Watch through the initial setup and see the fight up to where he gets cut, the rest isn't as interesting (isn't as dynamic). The reason I bring this up is because that's the only way I can imagine fighting with a "weapon" as impractical as scythe without reducing yourself to just a series of wind-up slashes. That's the problem with anime in general, though - there is too much fighting in their battles and many come down to a Final Fantasy standoff with each combatant throwing in special attacks, with little to no actual dynamic contact combat.
Depiction over, that's the dynamic I want to see in such a large set. We went over this with the thread about Cloud's Buster sword last year - large weapons are impractical to use in fits and stops, and even if you have the great strength to do so, they just don't look right or feel like they have weight behind them. As such, a large weapon is best used in continuous motion, as swings turn into spins and feed directly into subsequent swings, all appearing as a single, unbroken motion. To this effect, we want a system to actually preserve and forward that feel.
I'm not sure it's at all possible, but here's what I have in mind. Currently, we have a combat stance from which each attack starts and to which each attack returns at the end of its animation, causing even fast sets to run in fits and starts. What if we avoided this with an extra, intermediate combat stance. Say the default combat stance with the scythe out when not doing anything is you just holding it upright. However, every time you attack, you go through a an additional state, one of turning the scythe into a spin and holding it there spinning for just a moment, attacking, and returning to that spin. The trick here is that if you queue up another attack or fire one quickly thereafter, you can launch into your next attack QUICKLY, whereas if you wait, your character cuts the spin (taking a second) and resumes normal stance, having to them spin it back up again (taking another second) before he can attack.
Essentially, this is a set which would reward fast, aggressive fighting by giving a LOT of speed with no loss of power, but ONLY if you stay on top of it and keep pressing the attack. If you stop, you slow down hard. This is to simulate the notion that the weapon is unwieldy and slow, but can be DEADLY in the right hands, and only if you can keep it going. It's kind of like a Blaster with Defiance - if they keep on attacking and play aggressively, they can kill faster, but if they slow down, they kill even slower. Same idea here, but with speed instead of damage.
It's just a concept, really, but it's the only way I can see a large, long weapon used in any way that doesn't make it look clunky, and it seems like it would be a pretty unique mechanic for the set.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I like your idea, Samuel. There's certainly nothing like it in City of Heroes, though we'd have to go to BAB and Castle to find out how workable it is. Also, I'm concerned about how it would affect low-level characters who don't have a lot of powers in the set yet. I'd suggest that each successful hit give the attacker a brief +Recharge bonus, which would help maintain the attack chain. To keep things from getting overpowered, it might (might) be possible to make the +Recharge from Scythe attacks go away if the character is mezzed or struck with a Recharge debuff.
I'm thinking about the way Zasalamel fights in Soul Calibur IV. He can maintain a steady rhythm of attacks with his scythe, but anything that stops him stops him hard.
BackAlleyBrawler: I can't facepalm this post hard enough.
ShoNuff: If sophisticated = bro-mantically emo-tastic, then I'm going to keep to my Shonen loving simplicity dammit.
I think it's far more likely that they'd just fake the momentum by giving the attacks very long animation times like in Dual Blades.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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The problem is that you can't really fake it that way unless you make the combat stance active, e.i. twirling. However, that would look patently ridiculous, as you'd be spinning ALL the time, which is just bad, visually.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
I think it's far more likely that they'd just fake the momentum by giving the attacks very long animation times like in Dual Blades.
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Anything short of that and you can't really fake flowing momentum, because invariably you return to a static stance. Dual Blades can sort of cheat by having the attacks sort of lead into combat stance at the end, which makes it somewhat less visible, and with swords you can sort of fake it that that's just where they pass through. However, even with Dual Blades, it's not entirely clean. The smaller, lighter attacks are relatively good in this regard, but the bigger attacks that include radical footing and wild swings always have a very tangible "recovery" period at the end, which really brings things down a notch. For instance, Sweep goes like:
slashslashslash wait STIKE wait wait wait slash slash slash wait spin wait spin/sweep wait wait wait
There's a lot of waiting in there, even inside the attack animations, themselves. It's not much in terms of raw numbers and performance, mind you, but we're talking about a theme here, and a perpetual motion swinging weapon would need to work WITHOUT pauses in animation whatsoever. Granted, you can't make a set without pauses at all, but you CAN mask the pauses by having the combat stance animation appear active, like you're still doing something even if, technically, this is recovery time. You can't do that with the current combat stances, because they're all "idle" and wouldn't look good with an active animation, so we need something in-between idle combat stance and attack animation, such that we don't have to route through anything static and idle.
What worries me the most with a scythe, halberd or quarterstaff, though, is the prospect that the set could end up being stiff, like what just about every other game does. Jerky, sweeping motions and single attacks with lots of idling. A scythe isn't a weapon you can just pick up and hit things with. Hell, it isn't a weapon at all! So to use it and make it look good, you need a very spectacular technique, and I just don't think such a set would be worth playing without it. Then again, BABs has already pulled off one amazing feat with Dual Blades, straying away from the Broadsword model of "hit it down, hit it sideways, hit it twice." It works for Broadsword (and War Mace and Battle Axe) and it'd probably look well for a two-handed hammer powerset if we ever get that, but halberds, pikes, polearms and, yes, even scythes, aren't something you can use like this.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Now we're getting away from a bursty set to a DPS set. That's fine, I guess. But as a weapon set, I feel a scythe wouldn't actually *be* fast in the since of get it going and become some kind of blender. At least no where in the realm of speed that a spear or staff can go...
That is to say, I'm not saying the attacks should be slo-mo type attacks. I think the attacks should animate with a deliberate speed that entails focused direction of attacks. But as for a DPS feel to it (in a realistic view), it would pale to a set like a staff where the entire weapon is the weapon or a spear that can slash, parry and thrust in such fluid action you can pretty much do it in one motion.
If we ever get 2-handed weapons though, I'd want the staff to be the weapon you describe that does smashing damage and the halberd/spear be the same but the one that does lethal.
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Well, I did mention that's a design I originally created for a halberd/spear type weapon, so it might not fit a scythe. However, the reason I'm suggesting this is because, and I say this with the utmost of respect for the thing, a scythe is not a weapon and trying to use it like one is silly. The only way I can see it made to look cool is by presenting it as a continuous momentum weapon, because this is about the only way large and/or heavy weapons can be wielded with any sort of stye.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Now we're getting away from a bursty set to a DPS set. That's fine, I guess. But as a weapon set, I feel a scythe wouldn't actually *be* fast in the since of get it going and become some kind of blender. At least no where in the realm of speed that a spear or staff can go...
That is to say, I'm not saying the attacks should be slo-mo type attacks. I think the attacks should animate with a deliberate speed that entails focused direction of attacks. But as for a DPS feel to it (in a realistic view), it would pale to a set like a staff where the entire weapon is the weapon or a spear that can slash, parry and thrust in such fluid action you can pretty much do it in one motion. If we ever get 2-handed weapons though, I'd want the staff to be the weapon you describe that does smashing damage and the halberd/spear be the same but the one that does lethal. |
Moving away from momentum and into more direct, deliberate strikes simply makes the scythe into a faux two-handed axe, which isn't exactly a weapon I would refuse to have (man, I would LOVE that), but isn't really something that's going to fly. It's bad enough most "scythes" in animation aren't actually scythes at all, but rather long-bladed, sharp-edge axes, both in design and in terms of technique of use. I really, REALLY don't want to see that for a scythe, because to me that just looks really, REALLY bad.
That said, I don't see why a continuous momentum style of attack can't have big, heavy-looking attacks. Constantly twirling a large weapon doesn't necessarily mean you have to constantly twirl it fast, it just requires that each motion feed into the next. You could have large, dramatic swings with a full-body spin and a lot of arm strength behind them that still feed out of and into a continuous momentum style. Hell, add in a few "just for show" twirls like switching hands, turning it around your neck, tossing the spinning weapon and suchforth. That kind of show is actually also depicted in the Maka fight I linked to earlier right at the start where she shows off her scythe skills with one of these.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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A Scythe set, this is what I've been wanting. But why just Tankers/Stalkers?
I admit, there are some weapons I don't see as belonging to certain ATs, but Scythe, that isn't one of them.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I would be down for this, but make it for all melee ATs and that would be bad ***.
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Originally Posted by Mylia
I would be down for this, but make it for all melee ATs and that would be bad ***.
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"Choose your weapon."
"Mace and chain."
"And you?"
"One of those, and one of those...ooh, a few of those.."
"Mace and chain for him too!"
</threadjack>
I did say it would be for all melee ATs but that it is 'designed' with Stalkers and Tankers in mind. It's got something for tankers (AoE control and a 'get ova'hea yuss guys' cone as well as strong ST attacks) and for stalkers (it's got burst ST and a balance of AoE with a nice self buff to aid in survival). When ported to Scrappers, it still be a great set but the rech on its powers and the endurance costs would need to be over come before it match the DPS of Broadsword or Katana. For Brutes, the endurance would hurt and it would be hard to build fury without filler attacks in the early-mid lvls.
To [EDIT]Sam not Bill >_>,
I guess it all comes down to how good the animations would be. As of now, even using 2-handed weapons that don't have static points for your hands is out of the question. A new animation mechanic that allows the fluidity you speak is even further out. But I'd definitely like to have that for a set (or this set). Like you said, it's possible to be fluid attack leading into attack and keep the burst feel of the set. If the endurance and rech costs are appropriate for the burst damage it does, it's all gravy.
Currently, I think Katana is in the realm of animation I'd aim for. It's deliberate with its strikes and yet feels smooth (not fluid like you're talking about but smooth) and it looks several times better than the animations for alot of other set *including* claws. I'd settle for just smooth, myself. But if you can make it better, then better.
For fun, right?
Death Scythe Melee
An unorthodox weapon of deadly potential, this weapon works as a conduit of otherworldly energy that can rip foes' flesh asunder and eviscerate their souls. Similar to Claws, this set has the secondary effect that target recharge and endurance but rather than a discount this set gets a *penalty* because each attack will do more damage and have slightly longer range. This set is built to accommodate the needs of Tankers and Stalkers but is by no means unusable for Scrappers or Brutes.
Tankers:
1. Sickle Slash (ST 9ft range, foe moderate lethal/neg energy dmg, fast rech)
A quick animating slash attack that gives the enemy a touch of the netherworld.
2. Death Stroke (ST 9ft range, foe high lethal/neg energy dmg, moderate rech)
A powerful and deadly stab with the pointed end of the scythe that penetrates the foe and injects them with the essence of the netherworld.
3. Reap (ST 12ft range 90 degree cone, foe moderate lethal/neg energy dmg, long rech, knockback *Special*)
A wide, sweeping horizontal slash with the scythe that will pull foes closer to you. There have been suggestions on how to handle 'knocktoward' and how I figure this would work is it would spawn a pet 5 ft behind the target that does radial KB to those within the cone's range. It'd end up knocking them closer to you.
4. Taunt
5. Soul Splice (ST 9ft range, foe moderate neg energy dmg/-res, self +dmg, long rech)
A quick slash and pull strike that aims at the enemy's soul and draws away its spirit and splice it to your own. This harms the foe as well as debuff their resistance to damage while making you hit harder for a time.
6. Fear Monger (Close Range Pet summon, *Special*, long rech)
Raise your scythe above your head and drive the sickle deep into the earth, creating a fissue that errupts with the searing screech of tortured souls. This effect may taunt foes to pay attention to their inevitable fate as well as evoke fear into their weak hearts if they get within 15ft. A short duration taunt + a 45% chance of a mag 2 moderate duration fear (both fear and taunt duration slottable). This pet is targetable but undamageable.
7. Spiral Scythe (15ft PBAoE, Foe moderate Lethal/neg energy dmg, very long rech)
A swift spin of the scythe around the waist.
8. Soul Extortion (12ft range 45 degree cone, foe minor lethal/neg energy dmg, self +recovery per foe, very long rech)
Thrust the outward edge of the sickle to make a quick minor strike that absorbs the foe's life to fuel your work, making you recover endurance faster for a time.
9. Guillotine (ST 9ft range, foe extreme lethal/neg energy dmg/mag 3 sleep, *Special*)
A devastating diagonal strike that is aimed to cut the foe's wind pipe, causing them to choke on the cold steel of your weapon. If a foe is defeated by this attack, the user is empowered by the departing soul, improving your resistance to all for a time.
Stalker:
1. Sickle Slash
2. Death Stroke
3. Reap
4. Assassin's Scythe
5. Build Up
6. Placate
7. Fear Monger (Close Range Pet summon, *Special*, long rech)
Raise your scythe above your head and drive the sickle deep into the earth, creating a fissue that errupts with the searing screech of tortured souls. This effect will evoke fear into their weak hearts if they within 15ft and lowers foes' ToHit. No Taunt but a -8% ToHit + a 45% chance of a mag 3 moderate duration fear. This pet is targetable but undamageable.
8. Spiral Scythe
9. Guillotine
Thinking of this set, I figured a set focused primarily on control and burst damage would be beneficial to what a Stalker and Tanker need. When supported by a team and/or +rech or dmg buffs, the quick animating attacks would give it a purpose. It's a set that fits a weapon-type dark theme that ties in perfectly with Dark Armor (being able to stack Fear, yank back foes wondering from your oppressive gloom, +res stacking attack) would be monstrous. For Stalkers, and their ability to controlled crit Guillotine would be able to defeat and stack great resistance with Guillotine for either DA or Elec Armor (2 of their weakest sets). It's weakness is its lack of +ToHit (except for Stalkers) or defense debuffs. If you get debuffed and miss, you're looking at waiting longer than normal for the powers to recharge