What of Resistance?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2009-09-14 09:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Bane Spider Minion, Lt., and Bosses are three enemies from just one group. Cimeroran Traitors, certain Long Bow, KoA, and thousands of various Scrapper/Stalker AE opponents all score criticals.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I can think of about two or three mobs with critical hits, and defense isn't the same thing as DDR (which, for the record, can reach 95% for these two specific powersets, not 90%).
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Originally Posted by NeverDark
On average, they'll hurt defense just as much. Crits may hit defensive sets less often, but when they do, they hit far, far harder. And because resistance resists its own debuffs, they increase damage against both kinds of mitigation equally.
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I can absolutely guarantee that critical hits do not impact defense sets the same way they do resistance sets. A single Bane Spider boss can leverage enough unresistable damage against many resist based toons to completely change the tide of battle-- let alone the additional strikes from his supporting Bane cast.
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Are NPC criticals unresistable damage?
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
I can absolutely guarantee that critical hits do not impact defense sets the same way they do resistance sets. A single Bane Spider boss can leverage enough unresistable damage against many resist based toons to completely change the tide of battle-- let alone the additional strikes from his supporting Bane cast.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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If they're unresistable, it'll change, but otherwise, on average, both defense and resistance will be hurt the same by crits. You won't usually see it in normal play, because the scope you're looking at is small enough that it's easy to see defense simply dodging the hit. But if it connects (and with a large enough scope, it will), it'll hurt.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Are NPC criticals unresistable damage?
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If they're unresistable, though, then yes, defense comes out ahead here.
We'll always have Paragon.
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Critical hits should be resistible.
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Originally Posted by NeverDark
If they're unresistable, it'll change, but otherwise, on average, both defense and resistance will be hurt the same by crits. You won't usually see it in normal play, because the scope you're looking at is small enough that it's easy to see defense simply dodging the hit. But if it connects (and with a large enough scope, it will), it'll hurt.
If they're unresistable, though, then yes, defense comes out ahead here. |
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I disagree with this in the strongest possible way. I would be EXTREMELY upset if the 5 months I spent earning the 1.8 billion influence needed for my fire/sr AV soloing build was suddenly meaningless because I could no longer hit the defense softcap. |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Defense most certainly needs to be reworked in this game.
I'd suggest keeping the same mechanic, but having a second cap around 40% that applies to stacking Armors, Pool Powers, certain buffs, and IO bonuses. This cap could only be exceeded by Tier 9 powers, Energy Absorption, and other abilities that should emulate a g-d mode. Soft capped mitigation values should never be available 100% of the time. |
I am very much against any defense changes, whether it be in the sets themselves, the mechanic, or the values of IO set bonuses.
I'm all for buffing resistance bonuses in IO sets and adding more of them on the other hand.
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Anyone with a capped defense build (this would include me) should be prepared for the day when it changes. It seems likely that someday we will move to a better system than the current one. That new system should allow people to better get great levels of mitiagtion, without having people get god-mode levels of mitigation 100% of the time.
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Originally Posted by firespray
I disagree with this in the strongest possible way. I would be EXTREMELY upset if the 5 months I spent earning the 1.8 billion influence needed for my fire/sr AV soloing build was suddenly meaningless because I could no longer hit the defense softcap.
I am very much against any defense changes, whether it be in the sets themselves, the mechanic, or the values of IO set bonuses. I'm all for buffing resistance bonuses in IO sets and adding more of them on the other hand. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I think it's better to say that -Res is rare on blueside. Given the amount of Longbw missions redside, a player will run into -Res a great deal.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
Along with #2:
-res is fairly rare in the game, while every schmuck with a gun can do significant -def. |
"If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one?"
- Abraham Lincoln
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This. In fact I think that res bonuses should be higher than def because they don't get the "works against any power that has any of that type" bonus. Then again, res bonuses are often lower tiers than defense, which almost always require 5 or 6 slots.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
I'd also like to echo this (the echo of an echo?). Defense isn't a constant, reliable contributor like resistance is. That's why it's considered "stronger" than defense. Of course, it doesn't allow you to avoid all of the nasty side effects of powers, but that's just something you have to deal with by having a more reliable mitigation mechanic.
The problem, as I see it, is not that defense, as a mechanic, is better. It's not that the +def set bonuses are too common or too high (though there might be some merit to those claims when you can softcap a ranged character that has no native defense). The problem is that the +res set bonuses are too low and not diverse enough. A single type resistance bonus contributes the same percent resistance as a double typed or single position +def set bonus and doesn't provide a secondary resistance benefit to encourage slotting those sets even if it's not the specific type you're aiming for. A double type resistance bonus contributes the half of the percent of a double typed or single positional. The resistance bonuses, while only contributing half as much per percent, are also reduced in effectiveness by only getting half as much specific payout per set bonus, which is even less when you consider that they don't get the same tangential bonuses as the defense sets. Of course, my solution for solving this would be to increase the double resistance bonus percentages to be the same as the double typed and single positional set bonuses (re: double them) and give all of the single resistance bonuses the other half of their pair. After that, you address the tangential discrepancy by giving each of the set bonuses half of the benefit to 1 or 2 other resistance types (psy/tox, possibly). |
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
An important point not mentioned here is PVP. Defense is extremely underpowered in PVP.
In PVE, it is better than resistance against regular mobs, but the reliability of resistance can arguably be better in multi-AV TF finale fights, and possibly the GR hard mode PVE.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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I don't see why. My soft capped builds manage to find challenges still. I just unlocked Viridian for the first time, and so far I'm two missions in and I died in each one. Stacking Vengeance ignores high defense pretty handily, as do multiple Longbow Wardens when Tub Ci decides to agro additional spawns during an ambush swarm. Granted, I am set to 8 players, but that's an option in game. That's the performance ceiling, so to speak. We should be pushing everyone towards it, not pulling the builds that can manage it back down.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Anyone with a capped defense build (this would include me) should be prepared for the day when it changes. It seems likely that someday we will move to a better system than the current one. That new system should allow people to better get great levels of mitiagtion, without having people get god-mode levels of mitigation 100% of the time.
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We don't need to start invalidating a lot of good builds, hard work, and hard won inf by reworking the whole system. It's both easier and more satisfying to boost the resistance based builds by giving them more and better options.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
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Do Longbow have any significant -res other than a few specific Warden sets and the 40+ Nullifier grenades?
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Originally Posted by Chunky_Style
I think it's better to say that -Res is rare on blueside. Given the amount of Longbw missions redside, a player will run into -Res a great deal.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
I suspect that if the devs had the game to design all over again, they would incorporate some form of diminishing returns in from the start - most likely a gentle curve with the softcap as its asymptote - such that mitigation becomes logarithmic in its growth and effectively additive in its contribution to the survival line.
I also suspect that they would apply it to the current game, if not for the whole "pitchforks, torches, blood in the streets" thing.
@SPTrashcan
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Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
We don't need to start invalidating a lot of good builds, hard work, and hard won inf by reworking the whole system. It's both easier and more satisfying to boost the resistance based builds by giving them more and better options.
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This. The game is not balanced around IO's anyway. If peeps have the time, inf, and immagination to build god-like builds that will ultimately not be challenged by "standard" play, let them. Speciallized builds is a mini-game now and gaining rez would help with diversification. I believe it will ultimately be self-limiting anyway, and only be done by a minority of players that are looking to do what exactly? Solo LR, Hami...?
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No, but once the Nullifiers get their -res grenades, you're rarely at full resistance during a longbow mission.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
Do Longbow have any significant -res other than a few specific Warden sets and the 40+ Nullifier grenades?
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Longbow are not the only source of -resistance villain side either. Spend any amount of time in St Martial and you'll encounter ungodly amounts of Wailers, which are all Sonic, all the time.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
No, but once the Nullifiers get their -res grenades, you're rarely at full resistance during a longbow mission.
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So yeah, Red Side has plenty of - Res to go around.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
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Between Arachnos and Longbow, I'm pretty sure that, suffice to say, Redside has [your weakness].
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Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
Longbow are not the only source of -resistance villain side either. Spend any amount of time in St Martial and you'll encounter ungodly amounts of Wailers, which are all Sonic, all the time.
So yeah, Red Side has plenty of - Res to go around. |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Not to mention that with the new difficulty system having two or more Nullifiers per spawn isn't out of the question. Of course I just use the same tactic as before, wait for them to fire their -res nades and then pray I can get out of the -res bubble in time.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
No, but once the Nullifiers get their -res grenades, you're rarely at full resistance during a longbow mission.
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"If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one?"
- Abraham Lincoln
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The why is simple. |
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
I don't see why. My soft capped builds manage to find challenges still. I just unlocked Viridian for the first time, and so far I'm two missions in and I died in each one. Stacking Vengeance ignores high defense pretty handily, as do multiple Longbow Wardens when Tub Ci decides to agro additional spawns during an ambush swarm. Granted, I am set to 8 players, but that's an option in game. That's the performance ceiling, so to speak. We should be pushing everyone towards it, not pulling the builds that can manage it back down.
We don't need to start invalidating a lot of good builds, hard work, and hard won inf by reworking the whole system. It's both easier and more satisfying to boost the resistance based builds by giving them more and better options. |
1) God-like performance (solo) was not intended to be available 100% of the time and is not needed.
2) The main reason is so that you can have better normal performance from powers without fear of hitting god-like with no effort. Weave should be better than it is. Other +defense powers should probably be better than they are.
3) It is unfair. For example, SR and Invuln and Shields and Traps and FF can get to the soft-cap with less effort. Even if you change IOs so that they grant a bonanza of +resistance, the mechanics do not allow you to approach what soft-cap defense allows.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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There are also Sonic Wardens. I've seen Brutes in Granite go from full green health to dead in the blink of an eye when standing on a Liquefy, 2 Disruption Fields and whatever Sonic blasts the Warden has.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
No, but once the Nullifiers get their -res grenades, you're rarely at full resistance during a longbow mission.
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Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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1) The performance is hardly God like. Soft Capped builds can and do die. There are plenty of things in the game that can get around your defense. Which isn't to say that a soft capped character isn't very, very good.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The why is simple.
1) God-like performance (solo) was not intended to be available 100% of the time and is not needed. 2) The main reason is so that you can have better normal performance from powers without fear of hitting god-like with no effort. Weave should be better than it is. Other +defense powers should probably be better than they are. 3) It is unfair. For example, SR and Invuln and Shields and Traps and FF can get to the soft-cap with less effort. Even if you change IOs so that they grant a bonanza of +resistance, the mechanics do not allow you to approach what soft-cap defense allows. |
2) Removing a soft capped build will not make Weave better. It will make it worse. Right now the thought that I might need it to soft cap is the only reason I would even consider that power.
3) It is unfair. So let's bring the other builds up. You don't think 90% resistance is as good as 45% defence? I am not sure I agree. My Electric Brute with 90% energy resist farms Rikti in a way that my soft capped build would have a lot more trouble with. I would agree that Resist based sets could use a boost, but I think really, at 90% resist, you should be able to fight anything dealing that type of damage and do just fine. If every Resist set could hit their cap easier, I think more people would roll those sets. Of course the biggest problem with that, is that only Brutes and Tanks can get to 90, with Scrappers and Stalkers having a much lower ceiling, which is absurd, since both those classes can get as much defence as they want.
So in short, 90% resist caps for everyone. More ability for resistance sets to reach their cap in at least one or two types of damage. Let's build upwards, not tear good things down.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
My experience has been Resistance>Defense. Once something gets thru your defense, and it does, It REALLY hurts. This is why it's easier to build up your defense, but harder to beef up resistance with sets.
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I think the idea is less that Weave as it is now would be more attractive if the softcap was unreachable, and more that in the absence of builds that reach the softcap, Weave could be buffed to provide more defense so as to make it useful for people who don't already have lots of defense.|
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
2) Removing a soft capped build will not make Weave better. It will make it worse. Right now the thought that I might need it to soft cap is the only reason I would even consider that power.
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| Let's build upwards, not tear good things down. |
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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No it isn't. There exists and upper level of difficulty in the game. It is there for people who can play it. As long as there exists more difficult options, then there should be builds that can survive at that difficulty. I think it would be better to make more builds capable of hitting the greater challenges, as opposed to the proposition that there should be less. The only real reasons to disagree with me are apathy and selfishness, neither of which do I consider a valid argument.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
This line consistently builds upward my blood pressure. It is a foolish and unrealistic idea. |
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
As far as +RES inspirations go...
Their numbers are far too low. Right now, +RES gives +10, +15, +20. +DEF gives +12.5, +25, +33. That's unusual since even if the numbers were the same, the DEF is stronger. Tarot buffs have this right, since they give +5% DEF but +10% RES. Realistically, the RES buffs should be closer to twice what DEF gives.
A small orange gives +10% RES, which doesn't do much. A small purple gives a lot more protection. 4 small purples can cap your defenses, while it takes twice as many oranges (8 to 9) to cap resistance. And no matter how many oranges you use or what AT you are, you can't get as much mitigation from oranges as you can from purples.
I honestly believe the RES inspirations should give +25, +33, +50. 50 sounds like a lot, since after all it's 2/3 of the way toward the squishy cap. But +33% DEF is more than 2/3 of the way toward the defense soft cap, which is -95% damage, while the RES cap would be only -75%. It would mean that two larges would cap you, but two large purples do that too. The two inspirations would be about equal then.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Be well, people of CoH.