I do too, but I'm quite easy.
I honestly feel quite sad for those who ragequitted.... and those who just HAD to go and roll yet another FoTM toon after their much loved FoTM toon got expired. So so sad.
Most of all I'm sadden by the tearful stories I've read about people losing online friends and having no one left to play with anymore. It appears to have caused a lot of hurt, anger, and bitterness for many PvPers.
Hey! At least now with AE, Players can make a custom arc with allies named after their dear dear PvP buddies from long ago... and get that old I12 feeling again as they move aronud unsurpressed with no DR, Heal decay, etc...
<<
>>
Oh, I thought for sure that would cheer someone up... Sorry if that made the pain worse.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Just responding to this because it's the only point worth even bothering with - you're obviously stuck on some belabored idea that everything's better now so I'm not even going to try and argue. Problem is you're wrong - if the new PvP is that much better, where are all the people it was supposed to bring in, and why have the whiners not stopped whining?|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Was that a Castle quote? Did he say he was duming down PvP? Or was that what the PvP community just thought and expressed on the forums so it made it true?? Does a good build = a good player? How do you know if you're good if you have to reroll a toon to whatever FoTM rises to the top?? Oh wait that's right PvPers had no choice right?\
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The part I quoted (that some of the changes were made to limit the skill spread) is true and I can copy and paste PMs to prove it, though I'd rather not at the moment. In short, one of the biggest reasons the PvP changes were made is because a team of seasoned PvPers would steamroll a team of newbies (which should happen by any kind of sane logic).
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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This ^
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Originally Posted by macskull
if the new PvP is that much better, where are all the people it was supposed to bring in, and why have the whiners not stopped whining?
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Yes, but are these seasoned PvPers steamrolling because of their general skill, or because they locked on to the FoTM builds that were nigh-invulnurable to all but a few other builds? Castle, misguided or not, was trying to open up the Arena and PvP zones to more playstyles and ATs/builds, and trying to push down the perceived need to only bring certain powersets to the fight at the exclusion of all others. The way he went about it was probably heavyhanded, but I don't think the intent was necessarily wrong. And besides, for every PvPer that said I12 pvp was just fine, there were just as many that were still calling for changes. They got change, but it just wasn't the change they were hoping for.
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Originally Posted by macskull
Just responding to this because it's the only point worth even bothering with - you're obviously stuck on some belabored idea that everything's better now so I'm not even going to try and argue. Problem is you're wrong - if the new PvP is that much better, where are all the people it was supposed to bring in, and why have the whiners not stopped whining?
The part I quoted (that some of the changes were made to limit the skill spread) is true and I can copy and paste PMs to prove it, though I'd rather not at the moment. In short, one of the biggest reasons the PvP changes were made is because a team of seasoned PvPers would steamroll a team of newbies (which should happen by any kind of sane logic). |
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
I'm glad people like PVP 2.0.
I'm glad those same people are happy the devs listened to their complaints about how PVP was and how hard it was to learn to play.
Granted they are the same people who turn around and tell those of us who don't like PVP 2.0 to stop complaining, deal with PVP as it is and learn to play.
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Amen.|
I hate to say it I actually miss Elf's 600 Point crit shark attack. I miss Althaea's AS for 1500. I miss the repel and KB of Brynn's hurricane. I miss break free actually breaking me free. I miss getting detoggled by Shinobi's Rad/Psi when I ran out of insps. I miss Kickn' Cowgirl nervous on vent for her first 2v2. I miss Kat's test emp 'Rapin' Face'. I miss Wombicus, Haunt, Hush, Ego, Psyrene, B, and Evo from my test team. I miss Oz playing Red Cross Woman before Thermal was cool. I miss War Council even though they wrecked me every day. I miss my Aim + Build Up + Blaze for 850. I miss when slows actually slowed, debuffs actually debuffed, and buffs actually buffed. I miss when you walked into arena/zone with what you made not what the devs thought you needed. I miss when every match started with glhf/all in and ended with gg/gf. *sigh* good times. |
To sum it up I miss the people and the adrenalyn rush.
I know when I first started out on test with PCJL and we would be practicing against other teams or preppin for a match my heart would be pounding. I had to actually worry about how I played my toon. I had to worry about actually healing and buffing. As I got better and moved on to other teams and learned more it was even more of an adrenalyn rush. Now I don't have to worry about anything, nothing is a challenge. In fact on my emp the only challenge there is for me is to count heals and spread them out so heal decay doesn't get my teammates killed. Now instead of healing a teammate that is taking spike damage I have to wait until they are almost dead to heal them. WTF?
What is really missing out of the new pvp is the pre-match preparation. The adrenalyn rush of seeing what the other team was bringing and then switching builds to counteract what they were bringing. Force field bubbler meant we were switching to bring a therm in. Omg they are bringing 3 psi blasters, lets bring in an extra emp. Ok who are we caging?
Now all of that is pointless because no AT does anything spectacular anymore. We used to worry about specific players. Now the only thing to worry about is who will get lucky enough to push buttons the fastest or have the most uber build.
Sadly I joined the PVPEC to help build up pvp again, but there is really no point to me. While I can feel good when a new pvp'r trys out the new pvp and likes it I can't help but just shake my head in sadness that they will never know what its like to be one of the "great ones", because no such thing exists anymore.
Yanno, most of all I miss the people that were considered the "greats". A lot of non-pvpr's think some of those people were just pvp ******* because they may have been a little rough around the edges. In truth though, for those that pvp'd with them, they truly were great. Helpful, willing to share their knowlege and just good laughs. AJax, UW, Reaver, M3z, Brynn, Johnnie, Dusk, and so many more from the test crowd, the list is just too long.
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See, I somewhat agree with you here. However, under the old ruleset, the build you had wasn't nearly as important as the person behind the keyboard - some people even set out to prove this; for example, Silent Method racked up a huge number of kills in kickballs on his AR/Fire Blaster, hardly a good PvP combination. If you tried to do something like that these days you'd just be laughed off. In most circumstances I'd rather take someone who knew what they were doing on, say, a TA/Dark than random newbie number 1 on their purpled Fire/EM. The people who say certain builds were unbeatable were probably the ones who didn't take the time to figure out potential counters to those builds - sure, a Fire/EM was tough to beat, but everything had its counter, whether it be through a different build or just good inspiration usage. If you wanted to humble a Fire/EM in the arena, a good Spines/Regen was always a solid choice.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Yes, but are these seasoned PvPers steamrolling because of their general skill, or because they locked on to the FoTM builds that were nigh-invulnurable to all but a few other builds? Castle, misguided or not, was trying to open up the Arena and PvP zones to more playstyles and ATs/builds, and trying to push down the perceived need to only bring certain powersets to the fight at the exclusion of all others. The way he went about it was probably heavyhanded, but I don't think the intent was necessarily wrong. And besides, for every PvPer that said I12 pvp was just fine, there were just as many that were still calling for changes. They got change, but it just wasn't the change they were hoping for.
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The only place where build mattered just as much as skill (and not even as a complete rule, only a general one) was high-end arena matches, such as the test ladder. Someone likened it to a KHTF - if you're trying to set a speed record for a KHTF you're going to bring a specific combination of powersets to ensure you get the job done. When you're fighting against a group of 8 people just as skilled as your group of 8, you need to be at your best game and bring your best characters to ensure you'll remain competitive. In zones or random KBs, anything could work so long as the person playing it was competent.
One of the unfortunate side effects of trying to make everything the same is that if a powerset has even a small advantage over its peers, people will flock to it because of that advantage. This is not an issue with the mechanics of the game, or even really the players, but rather an issue with the competitive nature of PvP in general - people want to win and so they'll do what they have to to ensure that happens.
Based on what we've been told publicly, and via PMs to various developers, there are several given reasons for the I13 PvP changes:
* Reduce the damage and survivability gaps between the ATs
* Reduce the discrepancy between a skilled player and a new player
* Eliminate FotM builds and teams
* Force conflict resolution via travel suppression and heal decay (that is, if someone starts a fight, someone needs to die)
* Provide a balanced platform for general PvP and base raid/CoP rewards
I think anyone who believes they've succeeded here is fooling themselves. Their intentions were good, but the implementation wasn't. Unfortunately, PvPers tried to tell them that during the I13 closed and open betas but the feedback was seemingly ignored, so many people just gave up and either quit or rerolled into builds that were best for the new system (so much for eliminating FotMs, eh?). For the record, even the experienced PvPers knew things weren't perfect under the old system - hell, you can still find a few old stickied threads in the PvP boards where they took the time to list issues with the PvP system, as well as solutions that would best benefit everyone. Some of those issues were addressed as asked for with the I13 changes, some were addressed but not at all in an expected manner, and some were left alone and have been continued to be ignored.
At any rate, the consequences of the PvP changes mean in their efforts to narrow the skill gap and eliminate FotMs, they've made even less builds really viable and have even managed to eliminate at least two entire powersets from serious competition. Oh, sure, you can say, my Sonic shields add 3% resistance - big deal, that won't even keep your target alive through an extra attack. Sure, you can cage a target for 4 seconds, but unless you're spot-on with your spiking, 4 seconds won't be enough to remove a key target from a fight. Instead, you could've rolled a Cold or Therm and spent that time debuffing, indirectly contributing more damage to your team.
What's disappointing to me is that the developers didn't seem to care about what the changes did to the PvP population, as long as they had their perceived balance. Adding PvP IOs in I14 did little more than give a small reward to the PvPers who were still left, as I don't know a single PvEer who now PvPs thanks to that addition (well, some of them do arena farms for the IOs now but we can't really count that). My question is this - if the changes were a success, where are the new ladders on the live servers and on test? Where are the new players these changes were supposed to entice into PvPing? You can claim balance all you want, but if there aren't any people around to experience that supposed balance, it's not really a success, is it?
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Um, I pvping right now with 12 or so.... It's only take one other person to PvP ya know. Is there a standard I don't know of? Are you stuck on your lolarena of olden days? Every point you can make is a comparison of before and now... LET IT GO. At this point you sound about as silly as someone complaing about the fact they can't have more than one set of imps... or someone who stills plays but whines about ED. Just because you don't want to admit to my points doesn't mean I haven't made them quite clear. 3% is useless from a support toon to offer but worth 100+ million as an IO that does the same? That's not even close to logic.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Just responding to this because it's the only point worth even bothering with - you're obviously stuck on some belabored idea that everything's better now so I'm not even going to try and argue. Problem is you're wrong - if the new PvP is that much better, where are all the people it was supposed to bring in, and why have the whiners not stopped whining?
The part I quoted (that some of the changes were made to limit the skill spread) is true and I can copy and paste PMs to prove it, though I'd rather not at the moment. In short, one of the biggest reasons the PvP changes were made is because a team of seasoned PvPers would steamroll a team of newbies (which should happen by any kind of sane logic). |
I've made no statements to say that I13 is better or worse so please don't put me in that camp. PvP is PvP. I like PvP more than PvE. I could care less about the changes made to the PvP system... Why? Because I'm smart enough to firgure things out on all my toons without having to delete and reroll every 2 issues just to stroke my Ego back to it's previous level of uberness.
Based on your opinion all th people left cause it was no longer fun, right...? Why did it stop being fun...?
Face it... Everyone and their mama had an opinion of how to fix PvP. I was there. I remember. Countless threads about PvP needin' a fixin'. I never made one single complaint about the old system... I just read and shook my head and thought the same thing I do now: Some folks just don't get it. From what I remember, after I13 most PvPers felt burnt by the Devs' changes because their precious ideas didn't make it into the system... pity. So they formed another little club to protest and whine and protest and whine.... then they all started shouting about CoH going to the americas and and how they'll lose so much money from the 3% of CoX players that PvP. They threatened to quit for about 3 months... when the Dev's didn't give in... they ragequitteded.... the end.
Now we have those who can't let I12 go.... and thus the cycle shall continue.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Please tell me you are kidding???? |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
I think it's more likely that we got it wrong.... than they did. I'm sure to you and many others however, that's not the case... beacuse the people who play the game are always much more knowledgeable about what needs to be done than the people that design it right??
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Let me take a crack at this.
The Dev's don't pvp. Admittingly. Not to say they don't do an occassional, casual match by any means, but they are not by any means hardcore pvpr's. Hell I wouldn't even say they are pvpr's because IMHO unless you actually practice at pvp, pvp with some regularity and design your toons with atleast a semblance of a pvp build then you are just a pve'r that occassionally trys pvp.
How in the world can the 17 year old kid that has never done anything more than microwave a hot pocket tell a goumet chef how to cook?
Now I will agree some changes needed to be made to pvp. FOTM's were a problem. Only to a point though, because there was a counter to EVERY FOTM that ever hit the stage. Thing was too many people were not smart enough to know what that counter was. Anyways, yes changes needed to be made. Here is where the problem comes in that most are not aware of unless they were a test pvp'r.
The Dev's included us in the closed beta. Specifically invited the test pvp crowd to closed beta to help them iron out what changes needed to be made. We went to closed beta with an open mind that there would be changes we wouldn't like but appreciative of the fact that they were willing to partner with us to get these changes done right. A lot of very good pvp'rs spent days/weeks testing all this stuff. On test all the time, testing. Providing feedback. An occassional non-pvp'r Dev was seen standing in the arena, not in a match mind you, but just in the building itself. Pvp'rs tested. Tested some more. Gave feedback. Gave thoughts and ideas. In fact I believe it was Mac that came up with a proposal of changes and gave it to the Dev's that would solve every single problem that they were trying to solve without actually wrecking pvp. **Just found out it was NOT Mac, apparently I got my names mixed up.
I13 came out with not so much as one single suggested change by the pvp crew. Not one.
So basically the people that don't pvp made pvp changes and ignored those that do pvp, and you think that is ok?
I normally don't whine about the changes because it is what it is. It is their game to change how they want to. However had to post this being your statement is just wrong. Very wrong. Of course people who actually pvp would know more about how to design or change pvp compared to people who don't pvp.
For example. The dev's solution to melee not being able to compete fairly was to suppress everyone to slow them down so the tank/scrapper would be able to catch them. Same thing could have been achieved by only suppressing someone when they were attacked specifically by a melee attack. YOu get punched, you are slowed down and can't run away as fast for a few seconds so the tank/scrapper has time to get in another attack. Seems fair to me? It was suggested by the pvpr's, but instead everyone is suppressed all the time which sucks. Just one example of many.
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Heh, that explains the bitterness no doubt.|
Originally Posted by CriticalKat
In fact I believe it was Mac that came up with a proposal of changes and gave it to the Dev's that would solve every single problem that they were trying to solve without actually wrecking pvp.
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So if I understand correctly, the arena folks and all the cookie cutter builds and FoTM ness went to closed beta, (which I was also in btw) and convinced themselves that they would know what changes needed to be made for ALL pvpers , right?
I am to believe that the plans and changes that you all proposed would have made PvP for ALL better, and not just better for the elite pvpers? I'm sorry but based of the egos I've encountered in-game and based on the attitudes and reactions after I13 by this group of know-it-alls, I find this very hard to believe.
I'm more convinced now than I was before that I13 isn't broken at all. It appears or at least sounds like people just quit because they didn't get their way. It's understandable... but quite petty IMO. Especially since now those who didn't quit can only gripe about how I13 isn't I12. Everyone was for the change until the change happened and didn't include all the changes that were bulletpointed on some proposed list. Why didn't it include ANY of those changes????? Were they really great ideas? Are you sure? Common sense has the answer I believe... even if one's ego won't allow it to be revealed. I believe the other part to this is that the changes did include some propsed by casual and not so casual PvPers right? Ouch! I feel the pain but seriously, this was almost 3 issuses ago?
You want me to be convinced that because I've PvPed for the last 3 years probably 90% of the time... because I PvP more than the Devs, that I would know better about what changes should be made to make PvP better for you and every other PvPer? Perhaps only those who arena know best? Maybe not, maybe only what you'd consider the really, really good PvPers know whats best for all of us?
If I'm not being clear I'll say this. It's a matter of perspective. I believe Castle and the others have a much bigger window to look out of than we do. One that sees the present and the future of CoX. It's one thing to believe you can offer help and provide feedback better than the next guy... it's a completely other thing to believe you actually know better than the folks behind the game. Seriously? Yeah I was serious.
From what you posted It just seems like a group of PvPers went to closed beta thinking they would get whatever they wanted because the Devs were finally ready to show some love to PvP... Only to realize that they were just there as fillers for the Devs to collect data and what not. Yeah If I set my self up like that I'd be bitter too... shame .
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Again why is non-pvper putting there input like they pvp alot? Cause you show up in RV every now and then you call your self a expert on pvping or have concerns. Yeah the dev's listen to those that complain dieding in a pvp zone... hey that the risk you take entering a zone for badges. So and I would kill any one in a pvp zone. I can talk cause I pvp since away back. I did the bloodly bay, Siren Call, WB,RV, test, base raids and the arena. I'm out there almost everyday pvping. I CAN TELL YOU THE NEW PVP IS LAME but I would adpoted like I have. I don't like it. I love the fast high impact pvping. All the well known pvpers would tell the same. Im just saying you actuallly have to pvp alot to actually give a input on the subject about PVP. PLEASE COME TO THE PVP EVENTS OR TO RV... and stay for awhile!
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They didn't convince themselves, the Dev's convinced them. It wasn't like a normal beta experience where people are randomly invited such as yourself. The teams were approached by the Dev's specifically to help them. Special invites for the purpose of helping them. I thought I made that clear in my post, apparently not, so hope its clear now.|
Heh, that explains the bitterness no doubt. So if I understand correctly, the arena folks and all the cookie cutter builds and FoTM ness went to closed beta, (which I was also in btw) and convinced themselves that they would know what changes needed to be made for ALL pvpers , right? |
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| I am to believe that the plans and changes that you all proposed would have made PvP for ALL better, and not just better for the elite pvpers? I'm sorry but based of the egos I've encountered in-game and based on the attitudes and reactions after I13 by this group of know-it-alls, I find this very hard to believe. |
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| I'm more convinced now than I was before that I13 isn't broken at all. It appears or at least sounds like people just quit because they didn't get their way. It's understandable... but quite petty IMO. Especially since now those who didn't quit can only gripe about how I13 isn't I12. Everyone was for the change until the change happened and didn't include all the changes that were bulletpointed on some proposed list. Why didn't it include ANY of those changes????? Were they really great ideas? Are you sure? Common sense has the answer I believe... even if one's ego won't allow it to be revealed. I believe the other part to this is that the changes did include some propsed by casual and not so casual PvPers right? Ouch! I feel the pain but seriously, this was almost 3 issuses ago? |
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| You want me to be convinced that because I've PvPed for the last 3 years probably 90% of the time... because I PvP more than the Devs, that I would know better about what changes should be made to make PvP better for you and every other PvPer? Perhaps only those who arena know best? Maybe not, maybe only the really really good PvPers know whats best for all of us? |
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| If I'm not being clear I'll say this. It's a matter of perspective. I believe Castle and the others have a much bigger window to look out of than we do. One that sees the present and the future of CoX. It's one thing to believe you can offer help and provide feedback better than the next guy... it's a completely other thing to believe you actually know better than the folks behind the game. Seriously? Yeah I was serious. |
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| From what you posted It just seems like a group of PvPers went to closed beta thinking they would get whatever they wanted because the Devs were finally ready to show some love to PvP... Only to realize that they were just there as fillers for the Devs collect data and what not. Yeah If I set my self up like that I'd be bitter too... shame .[/ |
I wasn't lied to or used. In fact eventhough I don't like the new pvp I have put forth a huge effort to support it and help it grow. However all these months later I can sit up and see that the pvp crowd didnt come back, there are very few new pvprs, very little pvp, and being this is a business that wants to promote pvp that its a bad business decision to not just admit the changes are wrong. If the goal was to get more pvprs, and the changes failed to do that then time to go back to the drawing board. You say its the pvprs with the ego issues, personally I think the same rings true for the devs. Rather than admit the plan phailed, they just keep letting pvp die even more.
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Nope, wasn't even in I13 beta. I did make a rather long post about things that need fixing back in May or something, it's still buried in the PvP section somewhere.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Heh, that explains the bitterness no doubt.
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I'm guessing you didn't spend much time reading over the lists of things that could've used fixing, proposed well before I13 hit (here and here if you're too lazy to look them up yourself). One of the issues on that list was "new players are overwhelmed - consider a 'new player' zone to make learning PvP mechanics easier." Unfortunately, the devs listened too well to that particular point and instead made it a blanket change for all zones.
The biggest issue with the PvP changes was that instead of trying to bring up the low end, they simply decided to drag the good players down to the level of everyone else. People left because it wasn't fun - buffs not buffing, debuffs not buffing, heals not healing, mezzes not mezzing, the speed removed thanks to travel suppression, and billions of inf worth of set bonuses neutered by DR - not because they "couldn't adapt." The idea that people couldn't handle the changes is ridiculous and at best delusional - if something isn't fun for you anymore, you can stop doing it and there's nothing wrong with that. You make the assumption that everyone who liked the old PvP relied on crutch FotM builds and cried when they were taken away. Before I13 my main PvP toons were - get this - a flying Katana/Regen and a flying AR/Dev.
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| I'm more convinced now than I was before that I13 isn't broken at all. |
At any rate, I'm sick of logging in to find zones empty or full of people who'd rather stand around and watch a Scrapper and a Brute hit each other with Brawl under the statue of Atlas. I have lost a few friends due to boredom and quite honestly I'm not sure why I'm still here. PvP is still more fun than PvE, but it's a shadow of what it was and what it should be.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I've had fun during the last 4 pvp events I've taken part in.
3 player FFA
30 player FFA
1 on 1
RV zone
I have no opinions to voice beyond stating this fact.
Be well, people of CoH.
Well, most of this thread has been tl;dr, but I can say this in relation to whether we've realized the potential of the new PvP or not. If McDonald's suddenly started putting Vegemite on their Big Mac, would you tell the people who thought it was disgusting the same thing? Sure, some people like Vegemite (supposedly) but does that make it a valid thing to say that people just haven't gotten used to it being on the burger? Of course not, people would demand the original back and McDonald's would probably admit they made a mistake (and possibly still offer the Vegemite burger as a separate item if it actually sold at all).
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Exactly, and well said.|
Originally Posted by Stray Kitten
Well, most of this thread has been tl;dr, but I can say this in relation to whether we've realized the potential of the new PvP or not. If McDonald's suddenly started putting Vegemite on their Big Mac, would you tell the people who thought it was disgusting the same thing? Sure, some people like Vegemite (supposedly) but does that make it a valid thing to say that people just haven't gotten used to it being on the burger? Of course not, people would demand the original back and McDonald's would probably admit they made a mistake (and possibly still offer the Vegemite burger as a separate item if it actually sold at all).
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I think some of the changes they made are very necessary. As an OPTION. In a new pvp'r zone. PVP didn't have to be trainwrecked across the board. Offer it as an option for the beginner. Just like they have a tutorial zone for pve, they should have made the same thing for pvp.
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Having recently been reading some discussions of vegemite i'm tempted to buy and try some marmite. (By every account it's like a better version of vegemite.)|
Originally Posted by Stray Kitten
Well, most of this thread has been tl;dr, but I can say this in relation to whether we've realized the potential of the new PvP or not. If McDonald's suddenly started putting Vegemite on their Big Mac, would you tell the people who thought it was disgusting the same thing? Sure, some people like Vegemite (supposedly) but does that make it a valid thing to say that people just haven't gotten used to it being on the burger? Of course not, people would demand the original back and McDonald's would probably admit they made a mistake (and possibly still offer the Vegemite burger as a separate item if it actually sold at all).
|
Oh, here's a combo: Vegemite and natto.
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
Exactly, and well said.
I think some of the changes they made are very necessary. As an OPTION. In a new pvp'r zone. PVP didn't have to be trainwrecked across the board. Offer it as an option for the beginner. Just like they have a tutorial zone for pve, they should have made the same thing for pvp. |
A diminishing returns system for heals, buffs and debuffs wouldn't have been so bad if it had been a bit less severe in the diminishment or implemented differently.
Before i13 i liked using my D3's controls and debuffs in zone PvP to assist teams. Far from optimal, likely to get my squishy butt killed, but it was fun.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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As far as getting things right goes, I will agree that they got at least a few things right, some stuff was a good attempt at a change that doesn't work quite well, and some stuff just plain sucks.
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
Exactly, and well said.
I think some of the changes they made are very necessary. As an OPTION. In a new pvp'r zone. PVP didn't have to be trainwrecked across the board. Offer it as an option for the beginner. Just like they have a tutorial zone for pve, they should have made the same thing for pvp. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I don't know. I thought many of the changes followed a clear trend.
With ED, we witnessed huge uproars about SOs giving off small percentages once a cap was reached, only to see IOs introduced and offer similar small percentages as bonuses... but no complaints there because you can multiply those small percentages times 5.
We saw DR introduced and heard the same type uproars, yet the response was not to stack the buffs and debuffs with differnt ATs and toons.... it was to stop playing support. I don't see how anyone can prove support is useless by not playing them. Of course now we hear talk of a new PvP zone, new sets, more proliferation, a new AT(s), an additional 10 slots, the ability to switch sides... but the because the PvP playerbase at the time knew so much more than the Devs did about these things (not)... speculation of their intent and purpose of the changes turned into facts here on the forums, and the actions of many as a result lead to a very contagious rage about a work in progress (PvP revamp)
I'm not a numbers guy. I'm a playstyle-fun factor-tactics guys. I enjoy PvP simply because it's more interesting than fighting AI. I like to see what works and what doesn't. I made Tp/Hover work and work extremely well in PvP simply because even in PvP, I can't stand the look many of my toons have with of SS/SJ. Also because I like to go against the grain and find counters to the norm. I'd think it'd be nice to see group fly stacked above the -fly found in webnade and entangle arrow, just to see a mobile defense floating above as bait. It'd be interesting to see what 6+ /Sheld ATs would be like fighting as one unit and having all taken grant cover and phalanx (sp?) fighting. Where are the Ice/ supuerteams? where are the Earth/Stone superteams? Wheres that small PvP VG that consists of only Merc MM/traps and Merc/TA MMs? I think the -damage debuffs found /TA, /Kin, /Traps, and /Dark are quite underrated but dangerously effective when stacked on hard hitting foes. My /SR Brute and my MMs would kill to have a /sonic around in RV to hit me with those shields and toggle resist debuff. My traps/ would kill to have friendly /Kin nearby and keep me from being TP'ed and Repelled. Oh, and don't get me started on frostwork. I love that buff... who needs HP accolades when a /Cold is around to put you at the cap?
Sorry. There I go again. I'm not gonna go on to create another long winded post so I'll just say this. I strongly believe that the Devs of this game have to balance around scenarios that we can't even dream of yet. I also believe that those of us vet PvPers that remain have a slight obligation to those with little to no experience in PvP to explain PvP in way that makes it appealing for them... instead of trashing it every chance we get beacuse of a change that happend a year ago. I enjoy PvP. I want others to as well. First we have to step back, let some of that pain go, and remember that we're all doing this for fun.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Mann..lolPvP Noa. .
Some of the best pvp I get comes from Xbox Live.
...too...much...words....
[EDIT]
Quote:
the best pvp was in the good old days when men killed each other to keep my title as the king. |
Originally Posted by EN3MY
Some of the best pvp I get comes from Xbox Live.
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Long live da way of da tru warrior
I like the new PvP, it lets me farm PBs in RV without interference. ;p
But in all Seriousness, I don't mind the new PvP. It's different, more brawly. I don't drop my toggles when held (always annoying for SR), but I getting held for brief bits of time can be annoying for someone that used to have Mez Protection (now Resistances).
Elf, even if the Devs were to change things back, I don't think many of the old PvPrs who left would come back. Kind of a Fool Me Once, shame on me thing...
Then again, I'm waiting with baited breath for Star Trek Online, and that's being produced by Statesman... 0_o
"Without LAN play? How the **** do you release a PC game without LAN?" ~Hitler
CHAMPION FTW!
50s - Cutlass, Fyrechic, D'Mal, Knightfox, DessertFox, Capt Davy Jones, Cutlass II
I like the new changes ^.^. I'm on Virtue though.