More variation in Enemy AI - Your suggestions?

Ok, I'm bored so I'm gonna give this a go even if I expect being slaughtered!

As it is, this game has the same basic AI's for all enemies. It doesn't really matter if you're fighting a minion or an AV/GM. The only real major difference is in HP, damage potential, shields etc, but their actual fight styles are basically just based on #1 melee or #2 ranged behaviour. They either stand and fight, run to you and fight, or run away from you just to calm down and/or run back to you.

What I would like to see is some new behaviour among our enemies. Let me give you some examples. (As in, I'm not suggesting these examples to go live, I'm just giving examples to show there most definitely could be different behaviour.)

First off some examples that are sort-of almost in the game:
Of course we all remember the first low level mission where the enemies followed us through the elevators. Rather scary...

Enemies running from you typically run through other mobs without notifying them of your existance. What if they did? Or called in backup. (Sure, there's triggered ambushes, but...)

What about those enemies that just let's you run through them, they DO notice you but can't be asked to follow you or sound the alarm. Hmm, what could they do if they had a few more brain cells?

We have traps sets but what if there actually was traps on the maps. Big worms coming out of the floor to shew on you etc.

Now to something completely different:
How about a Council dude with a stationary rocket launcher? Someone throwing grenades that you physically have to duck away from. (Think Quake rockets). You could also have all sorts of fun behaviour around other stationary "objects". Imagine kicking that council off the weapon and being able to take it over to fight an overwhealming but easily killed swarm of enemies (see next)

How about you being overwhealmed with something similar to clockwork gears/Stargate replicators/Killer ants/You name it. Creating an actual stress factor. (Oh, wait, It's called ITF lag hill and doesn't really work)

How about hit'n'run tactics. Alien like enemies jumping up from the floor, out of air ducts, whatever, hitting you, running around the corner and they're gone until they attack again. Crawling on the walls, ceiling etc. It's just there's 10-15 of'em so you have to be quick on the toggle/attack. (I know, melee alts would hate it, but combine it with other stuff and you'll have a balanced challenge for a balanced team)

You could have real ninja-style dudes doing something similar, running up to you, slashing you, jumping off, annoyingly fast, acutally using the enviroment. You could do a lot of stuff if enemies where really aware of the enviroment.

Ranged dudes actually having a gunfight with you, taking cover, covering each other, advancing/retreating. In general more dudes actually fighting you as a well-oiled team (instead of mud-fighting, screaming girls) would be... interesting! What about Robin Hood's merry modern stylish men actually hunting you, going down on their knees around corners firing at you.

Zombies coming up through manholes, don't let them touch/bite you. Old-style zombie action. I like the zombie invasions, but they don't feel very zombie'ish.

Of course the general idea of non-bipeds (we already know they wanted to hire someone with non-biped experience a while back) could provide some fun moments. While I do love Lusca those fights could be so much cooler if she(?) actually picked you up, squeesed ya, a little bit of shaking and then threw you away. (Oh, god, Changing the physics engine, that's not gonna happen.) Don't we all sort of expect a big spider sooner or later? A Mini-hami actually moving in a slimy way, wriggle madly to get out of the grip. don't slip on his trail. A looong, big worm moving around a city zone, growing while consuming heroes/villains, pulling you in with long tentacles through it's mouth.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head. A couple of brain storm meetings among the devs should provide some seriously fun ideas, but I find it more fun asking you:

What sort of *new* enemy behaviour would you like to see in future issues to bring this ancient game-style AI into the modern world?

*LOL*
You have people who can't even handle a little knockback so are up in arms to get -KB IOs implemented. Do you honestly think they want anything that's not herding a mob into a cluster and then AoE them to death? Lol!

I like a lot some of those ideas. A few new ways of NPC reaction would be good.

I think it's important to distinguish these ideas from AI - these are not really ideas for improved AI - they're just new scripts that mobs would follow.

Which I think is great - I don't actually think we'd WANT better AI, which would increase the game's difficulty. I think we would want to encounter new patterns that we have to figure out how to solve, which would increase the game's variety.

Ehh, some of your examples fall more on the annoying side than the interesting side; but I like where this thread is going. How about enemies with "Honor" attitudes - meaning, they attack strongest person on the team 1st, and if everyone is the same lvl, they go after the tanks etc....Could see warriors having this code. Even enemies with the exact opposite of the above mentioned code would different, gives a new meaning to "protect the squishies."

There could even be foes that like to flank you.

That's all I have off the top of my head. But yeah more enemy variety is always nice.

Current Enemy AI:

Melee - rush up and fight you ASAP, mostly occurs with enemies that only have one ranged attack

Skirmish Line - some run up and fight you, others hang back and run forward to replace others as they fall, mostly occurs with enemies that only have one ranged attack

Ranged - stay out of melee, back up if you get near them, but stay put as long as you don't approach

Rabbit - hit and run, tend to run first time as soon as they take damage, most typified by Tsoo Sorcerers, other porters have this to greater or lesser extent

Sniper - not so much an AI as it is a limit. Snipers don't move or chase. they hold position and stay there.

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Another idea:

AIs that recognize and target healers and other dangerous targets.

You know what could be really really annoying? If they give enemy TP to mobs too and long distance for that. Lets think about situation, when the team is preparing to next attack and suddenly the defender disappears. Actually teleported in middle of nasty place...

Well, more variety tends to be good - as for the difficulty effect, why not make that optional?

Currently, we've got separate settings for number of enemies, level of enemies, so why not one for smarter enemies? Except they wouldn't really be smarter, just less predictable.

So sure, why not?

An open letter to NCsoft

There are tons of things, coding-wise that could 'improve' enemy AI, but it begs a simple question: Are we ready for more-advanced enemies?

By the look of just the AE teams, I'd say 'no'.

Good idea and bad idea at the same time.

Good idea: I like the idea of enemies not doing the exact same thing every time I fight them.

Bad idea: Smarter AI would make some tasks in the game, like the ITF for example, insanely difficult to downright impossible. Romans are tough as it is, they outnumber the team hundreds to one. Can you imagine if they had the same toughness and number advantage and were smart on top of it?

AI targeting support toons: This would SUCK. Seriously. The second a group was agroed they would mass fire on the closest support character to them. A tank would be absolutely REQUIRED to run any kind of mission at all, otherwise your support toons would have about a 3 second life-span once a spawn was aggroed. A dead support toon is no use to anyone. A scrapper would be incapable of keeping them alive because they don't have a high enough threat level to keep enemy attention on them. Defenders would fare the worst in this, as they have much less ability to keep themselves alive than controllers do, and controllers would only be safe once every few minutes when their AoE hold is up. An AoE immobilize does nothing whatsoever to prevent a spawn from attacking.

I'm not against the idea of smarter AI for enemies. I just think it would have to be VERY carefully done in order to not make the game difficult to the point of frustration.


Also: A lot of the things you suggest in the OP, while they WOULD be cool, are simply impossible with the current game engine.

I'm just guessing here, but after 5+ years, if those things were possible, we'd have seen at least SOME of them by now, don't ya think?

First off: I just gave examples of different behaviour. I don't actually suggest the devs put them in. It was just a way of getting the big, hairy ball rolling.

Personally I'd like to see BOTH:
1. More variety in behaviour AND
2. Actually more intelligent enemies, especially the bosses, EBs, AVs and GMs.

So far a lot of us has claimed that we think the game has become a bit too easy, we know it too well. "Master of" badges doesn't really make it tougher. More difficult, yes, byt the enemies are still the same, doing what they've always done.

I would love some serious new challenges for teams/SGs that makes me go "Whaaa.. what... what the ff.... I...Wh... What the heee....Maaaaan..." followed 30 minutes later by a "Omg that was so annoying... and cool because it wasn't 30 minutes of Mogged girl with big sword that just refused to die".

Indeed it would have to be carefully balanced and spread out in the game and most definitely the really intelligent(erhm, well) foes should only exist in optional, team-based situations, but even some fairly simple new behaviours/foes would bring me back to active duty.

And, Claws... Just because it's impossible in the current engine doesn't mean it's impossible. the I16 stuff was said to be impossible not long ago. I think the devs are quite busy updating the engine(s) for more coolness. Imho I'd say new behaviour/AI would do a whole lot more for the game than blue imps and lava pooh boots. Of course, like Malta sappers, many would hate such new additions.

An option for enemy AI diff setting? Hmm... Yeah /signed!

...but keep the ball rolling: Any more suggestions in behaviour that could be cool?

...and so, now it's also possible to do other things!
ergo, back to the subject at hand!

Okay, an example of something smarter AI would cause:

As it stands now, when you get within a certain range of an enemy they will start talking. That would indicate they are aware of your presence.

Currently, all they do is talk. With smarter AI, they would actively seek you out. Add in the "preferred support character targeting" and you have a situation where a spawn comes around a corner and guns the defender down before anyone can react to it. Once a mob triggers it's attack, the target cannot be changed. A tank can't save a squishy that just got targeted for an alpha strike, because the shots have already been fired before he can interpose himself.

That kind of thing would make a defender (an AT designed to be played on teams) all but impossible to play on a team.

That would be bad. There are a lot of players who prefer to play support characters, something like that would make their gameplay experience a lot less fun.

My Rad/Sonic is technically a support character. I LIKE the fact that I'm self-sufficient and don't have to hide behind other ATs to survive. Preferred targeting and active attacking would change that.

Another thing that would screw over a Rad: Their debuff toggles would become useless except on single targets. Why? Because the smarter AI would mean mobs would move out of range of the debuff rather than staying clumped up.

Mobs with mezzes would target controllers first, because that's exactly what we do to them.

Basically any tactic that we currently employ would be used against us. That would be GREAT for the hardcore strategists amongst the playerbase. It wouldn't be so good for the casual player who just wants to play a game.

Here are some suggestions I would like to add that might work: Favored targets.
This would basically be an enemy factions "Default non-taunt/under direct attack/teamed PCs" targeting choice. This could be simple, like say Malta would default their targeting to party members with the lowest HP, or Nemesis soldiers would target high HP targets to keep hammering away the tank while their AoE damage whittles away the rest of the team.
Or it could be more advanced, like say Malta targetting specific ATs, as further example knowing they have no mez protect of their own, would default target corrs, defenders, doms, and trollers first to keep from being locked down and other enemies could be sensitive to certain situations, like Nemesis soldiers would direct their fire to where ever PCs/enemies are most clustered together.
Also, AVs having a default preference for attack the person the mission belongs to as kind of a "take down the person directly responsible" thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

I think the main issue would be to make sure that enemies with increased AI are used in specific enemy groups and/or are spawn limited. The game already has the ability to limit how much of a specific enemy shows up in a spawn so simply adding a "smart" enemy here or there would make things interesting without being unbearable. Better AI alone would make certain parts of the game have more life to them. Individual smart enemies will help two specific player skills get more worth.

ST specialists. Enemy X is a threat and you can concentrate on taking them out while the rest of the team focuses on the rest of the spawn.

Stealth. Players can mount an alpha stike or simply bypass problematic enemies.

You have some cool ideas.

but absolutely everything you're listing as "annoying" HELL NO.
There's enough annoyances in this game, the trick is for them to make it tougher WITHOUT increasing the annoyance factor.

Annoying =/= difficult.

well, given that we're talking variation in enemy behavior, I don't see how the inclusion of an AI set that target's support types is that bad:

a) it wouldn't be every enemy, it would be occasional enemies rare, uncommon at best.

b) it wouldn't change the chance of initial aggro, simply coming around the corner would not be enough to get them to shoot you unless you're going at the mission without scouting and planning each segment. I know that my teams never call continous charge into regions we haven't had a scout previously check out for us.

c) the enemy wouldn't target by AT, but by player behavior

IE: a player uses a heal-other power within this enemy AI's line of sight and that causes threat/aggro similar to what dealing damage might otherwise be.

another example is if an enemy witnesses another mob held or stunned. (probably slightly more common than the heal-targetted AI since they'd also have to survive the hold/dizzy whatever in the first place).

In this case, the enemy that's targetting healers could end up targetting a scrapper using the medic or day job heals.

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This is not "playing to win" since it remains rare and somewhat predictable enough to build countermeasures for it. However, building those countermeasures would be a wonderful challenge.

I love playing against the possibility of defeat, it makes victory so much more sweet and desirable.

Zolgar: Agreed, don't want more "annoying" stuff, but...
Clawsandeffect: If you have the choise of getting tougher enemies with (possibly) increased reward it would be fun... Casual players would just not activate über-AI or whatever it could be called.

...also, more varied behaviour doesn't necessary imply any of you ideas, Claws, that's my point with the whole thread: What variations can we think of that we'd think be cool. Perhaps you have some ideas yourself since you don't like(?) the ones suggested?

...and personally I wouldn't mind the game getting progressively tougher instead of progessively easier albeit "grindier". Perhaps being lvl 50(+?) would actually account for, well... something...

I'm personally quite in love with traps, alarms going off, different triggers. Fairly easy to implement with the possibility to add a lot of fun as long as not every mission turns into a trap-mania. Stacked behaviours can go quite a long way too. (Just think of what we can do in the MA with stacked triggers/goals)

Maybe enemy groups that have a focus on coordinated fire (I can see Nemesis or Malta doing this) that make the members of individual spawns all fire on the same target. A lot of things in this game start getting a lot more deadly if they're not spread out at least a little, particularly without a tank on the team. I think this would still fall in the 'tough, but not impossible with no tank' level.

I had an idea for something like this recently whilst playing batman;

Have it so that some mobs, especially in maps which are supposed to be 'home turf', have some sort of 'supply crate' which they can use to upgrade themselves.


The idea is simple; one or two new members of mobs which only have melee/limited attacks. Maybe even use some of the existing ones that fit that criteria. Hell, not all of them have to be that limited.

Have a themed supply area (for general thugs it could be supply crates or wall-mounted cabinates, for magic users it could be alters or chests, technology users could have high-tech looking cupboards or wardrobes - each should have one for use in bases, and one portable one to be used in any environment) which can randomly be spawned as an objective.

Upon seeing an enemy/player, one NPC which is the least armed and not under direct threat will run to the supply crate.
They stay there for a few seconds, and, if not attacked, will become upgraded.

These upgrades could be anything, really. Depending on the Mob using it, it could be general armour, a heavy weapon (SMG/shotgun/battle axe), it could be a rune with a new power (ranged attacks), a jetpack or teleport-pack, it could even be a syringe of superadine (which would turn them into a big hulking tank).

If the crate is not occupied, another enemy could go use it.
You could have several crates to increase danger.


Not really new tactics for enemies, as much as new threats for players.