Ok, how about we create a list
By
Alteisen,
Posted on: 2009-08-30 09:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Defender >> Ice Blast >> Ice Storm: Using the blaster version
Defender >> Ice Blast >> Blizzard: Using the blaster version
Cute, we can play this game.
Dominator >> Fire Control >> Fire Imps: Is using Controller version, should be higher damage.
Dominator >> Ice Control >> Jack Frost: Is using Controller version, should be higher damage.
Controller >> Plant Control >> Fly Trap: Is using Dominator version, should be lower damage.
Dominator >> Earth Control >> Animated Stone: Is using Controller version, should be higher damage.
Dominator >> Gravity Control >> Singularity: Is using Controller version, should be higher damage.
Stalker >> Electric Melee >> Lightning Rod: Is using Brute version, should be highger damage.
Corruptor >> Storm Summoning >> Lightning Storm: Is using Defender version, should be higher damage.
Corruptor >> Archery >> Rain of Arrows: Is using Defender version, should be higher damage.
Defender, Corruptor >> Assault Rifle >> Ignire: Both are using Blaster version, both need to be lowered their respective amounts.
Those are only a few that come to mind that I've checked.
All the versions of Burn are the same.
Corruptor Rain of Fire is a different pet, but it deals the same damage as the blaster version and I think it might Scourge for 3 times instead of 2 times.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Wait, why should Dom pets get to do more damage than troller pets?
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Originally Posted by Rikis
Cute, we can play this game.
Dominator >> Fire Control >> Fire Imps: Is using Controller version, should be higher damage. Dominator >> Ice Control >> Jack Frost: Is using Controller version, should be higher damage. Controller >> Plant Control >> Fly Trap: Is using Dominator version, should be lower damage. Dominator >> Earth Control >> Animated Stone: Is using Controller version, should be higher damage. Dominator >> Gravity Control >> Singularity: Is using Controller version, should be higher damage. Stalker >> Electric Melee >> Lightning Rod: Is using Brute version, should be highger damage. Corruptor >> Storm Summoning >> Lightning Storm: Is using Defender version, should be higher damage. Corruptor >> Archery >> Rain of Arrows: Is using Defender version, should be higher damage. Defender, Corruptor >> Assault Rifle >> Ignire: Both are using Blaster version, both need to be lowered their respective amounts. Those are only a few that come to mind that I've checked. |
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Actually, I think it's important to distinguish between pets, and "psuedo-pets". Jack Frost, Animate Stone, Fire Imps and so on are pets, they are distinct from the AT that summons them and have their own stats and abilities. Lighting Storm, Lightning Rod, Blizzard, Rain of Fire, Ignite, and powers such as that eminate from the caster, then thus should follow the AT modifiers when determining strength. |
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Wait, why should Dom pets get to do more damage than troller pets?
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OTOH, pets do not get their master's Inherent. Controllers can do as much damage as Dominators when they get Containment, so their pets also do as much damage as Dominator pets, they just do it all the time.
Control and debuff effects of pets seems to be a separate issue. Dark Servant certainly seems to be a true pet (although he does no damage) yet he probably should have different debuffing abilities based on who summons him. I'm not really sure what the devs think on this matter, though.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Actually, I think it's important to distinguish between pets, and "psuedo-pets". Jack Frost, Animate Stone, Fire Imps and so on are pets, they are distinct from the AT that summons them and have their own stats and abilities. Lighting Storm, Lightning Rod, Blizzard, Rain of Fire, Ignite, and powers such as that eminate from the caster, then thus should follow the AT modifiers when determining strength.
OTOH, pets do not get their master's Inherent. Controllers can do as much damage as Dominators when they get Containment, so their pets also do as much damage as Dominator pets, they just do it all the time. Control and debuff effects of pets seems to be a separate issue. Dark Servant certainly seems to be a true pet (although he does no damage) yet he probably should have different debuffing abilities based on who summons him. I'm not really sure what the devs think on this matter, though. |
Exactly why? Don't get me wrong, I understand that Dominator and Controller pets should do the same damage, but if that's true, the other true pet, Dark Servant, should retain the same debuffing values. Much like the Singularity, that is almost all control, does the same for both ATs that get him.
Edit: I don't have a /dark that high yet, does the Dark Servant despawn by itself after a set amount of time?
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Yes, he only lasts for 4 minutes. The devs made a point of saying that he is distinctly not a Controller pet back in Issue 5.
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Originally Posted by Rikis
Edit: I don't have a /dark that high yet, does the Dark Servant despawn by itself after a set amount of time?
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Defender -> Cold Domination -> Sleet is actually calling the pseudopet for Corruptor's Freezing Rain (debuff values are lower than they should be), I believe.
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Scrapper>Shield Defense> Shield Charge, also doesn't crit :P
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not sure if it should seeing as it's from a scrapper secondary not their primary.|
Originally Posted by pyrite
Scrapper>Shield Defense> Shield Charge, also doesn't crit :P
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Don't get me wrong, I'd like it to (duoing a BS/shield scrapper with a friend a lot at the moment) but iirc crits only happen from scrapper primaries, somebody might be able to correct me here though if scrapper damage auras crit (apart from quills, which is from a primary not a secondary)
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I'm not even sure this is accurate. I seem to recall more than one instance of a critical with shield charge with my scrapper, but my memory isn't perfect either.
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Originally Posted by vampyrus_ddg
not sure if it should seeing as it's from a scrapper secondary not their primary.
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It may just be a design decision since Lightning Rod doesn't crit either. Not sure though.
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Exactly why not? |
Originally Posted by Rikis
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That's why I said "probably", ultimately it comes down to what is balanced, and that's up to the devs. It's not something I either want to say should be one way or another, or really feel strongly about either way.
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| Don't get me wrong, I understand that Dominator and Controller pets should do the same damage, but if that's true, the other true pet, Dark Servant, should retain the same debuffing values. Much like the Singularity, that is almost all control, does the same for both ATs that get him. |
With the Dark Servant, though, you're talking about a pet that is in the Primary for one AT, and in the Secondary for the others. If you want to look at it this way, why wouldn't a particular AT summon a Dark Servant who is more suited to his needs? A Defender would seek out one that has stronger buffs, while the Controller (Proliferation...) would want one with greater holds. The poor Corruptor is right out since the Dark Servant does no damage.
OTOH, when building a device for the Traps Set, the Defender might adjust his Force Field Generator to be stronger and provide more defense, while the Corruptor would build Trip Mines and Time Bombs that explode with more force. Of course, now we're bridging the gap between pets and psuedo-pets, but you get my point. Is the pet truly a separate entity, or a manifestation of the AT's powers? And if it is the latter, then is it really equal for all ATs, or is it just that Controllers and Masterminds concentrate more of their damage dealing power indirectly, not doing it themselves, but through their pets?
Yeah but if shield charge is not intended to give off critical hits, wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that brute shield charge shouldnt be affected by fury?
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I like this ones point.
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Originally Posted by Wuigly Squigly
Yeah but if shield charge is not intended to give off critical hits, wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that brute shield charge shouldnt be affected by fury?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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As far as I'm aware it's always been said that rage affects all the brute primary and secondary powers, where as I'm pretty sure a scrappers inherent critical only affects their primary, thats always the impression I was under anyway and it's the reason quills does critical hits while other PBAoEs from secondaries don't.|
Originally Posted by Wuigly Squigly
Yeah but if shield charge is not intended to give off critical hits, wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that brute shield charge shouldnt be affected by fury?
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If it's meant to be both, I'm building a spines/DA scrapper immediatly and complaing till the DA damage aura crits as well
Legion of Valor / Fallen legion
Victory
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No
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Originally Posted by Wuigly Squigly
Yeah but if shield charge is not intended to give off critical hits, wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that brute shield charge shouldnt be affected by fury?
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I propose we create a list of all the powers that are using pets or pseudo-pets that are using inappropriate values for the AT they're being used by. These really need to be fixed. They've been let stand for far too long and create some ridiculous outliers in overall powerset and AT balance.
Specify the AT, the powerset, and the power. Also feel free to provide details as to how the modifier being used is inappropriate. I'll start us off:
Corruptor >> Dark Miasma >> Tar Patch: Is using the Defender version at -30% res instead of the expected -22.5% res.
Mastermind >> Dark Miasma >> Tar Patch: Is using the Defender version at -30% res instead of the expected -22.5% res.
Corruptor >> Dark Miasma >> Dark Servant: Is using the Defender version, all -ToHit and -Dmg values are 33% higher than expected.
Mastermind >> Dark Miasma >> Dark Servant: Is using the Defender version. All -ToHit and -Dmg values are 66% higher than expected.