Ugh, a bit annoyed...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-08-27 10:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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My guess is that they didn't want to touch Elec Armor at the time because, while it was being claimed to be an underperforming set, it was still very playable and managed to get the job done most of the time. To fix the set, it would require a reworking of the set and they just didn't have the time/resource/reason to do it. When it was decided that the set would be ported to heroes, the set HAD to change because Tanks and Scrappers get Conserve Power in their epic pools. Elec Armor had CP, so it had to be taken out or the epics had to change otherwise Scrappers and Tankers could have CP twice.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Actually, I don't hate you at all. Now you just made me realize that the dev did think (at some point) that Conserve Power is over-lapping with Endurance Drain. Let's say that Converse Power is PERFECTLY fine the way it is right now, why would dev change Brute/Stalker's version? Could it be that because they think /Elec Armor is a bit underperforming (especially on Stalkers?)?
If the dev only modified Scrapper's version, then your point about this "dev's rule" applies, but apparently it doesn't. The dev made the change on all 4 ATs and that made me think that they wanted to buff /elec armor somehow (only when it gets ported to Heroes that is). I am glad they do something about Elec Armor survivability on Stalker. I whine only because buffing Elec Armor on Stalker and Corr Trap doesn't just happen today. It's been a pretty tired, overly discussed/full of suggestions topic. In fact, I was pretty certain that Defender Trap won't get any AT modifier treatment because Corr's version didn't get much of it. |
The devs don't want players to have the same power more than once.
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Which means either EA will never get ported, or they'll have to change EA CP as well.
Be well, people of CoH.
Controllers, Corruptors and MMs share (almost) the same values for their buff/debuff modifiers because they both have the buff/debuff category as their secondary.
Traps is also one of the very few sets capable of single handedly rendering Monsters and GMs into harmless puppets.
I fail to see how this whine is any valid at all.
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I think any Devices/Traps user can agree with that... those two powers are far too situational on teams and take too long to make use of. I mostly use Trip Mines for laughs, when the team is afk for awhile and I have nothing better to do, or when for some reason the team can't handle what we're facing. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
- but if the goal is to help Corruptors specifically, the appropriate method would seem to be making Time Bomb more usable, as it and Trip Mine are the two Traps powers that are naturally better for Corruptors due to their higher AT damage mod. I for one would love to see a version of Time Bomb that is not largely useless.
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Can't remember if Traps has Gun Drone, but that one is egregiously long animating for Devices, too. Stupid Malta make me jealous whenever I see them just toss theirs out (well, pretty much).
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Wrong, as are most of the posts here assuming that.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Hey whiner, Defenders have a different buff/debuff modifier than corruptors and MM's. The powers weren't changed at all. You can see this if you go into your precious corruptor and pull up the info on FFG. Now see where it says something like "As used by a [pulldown: Corruptor]"? Change that to defender, and you'll see the numbers change to fit the buff/debuff modifier. Yes, you can do this on the live server now. Not the test server with the open beta.
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Try doing what you just described, and you will see that the numbers don't change. A summoned entity does not get AT stats.
The devs correctly gave a buffed alternate version of the power to defenders.
I was about to say that the corr/MM numbers are incorrectly the same, but MMs have the same def mods as corrs. They just use higher energy.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Trip Mine is ok (especially solo) but Time Bomb is horrible. Traps doesn't get Gun Drone but I'd like to see the summon time reduced for Devices as well, it's an extremely weak power and I rarely bother to use it because of the long summon time (I mean 6 seconds, really?).
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Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
I think any Devices/Traps user can agree with that... those two powers are far too situational on teams and take too long to make use of. I mostly use Trip Mines for laughs, when the team is afk for awhile and I have nothing better to do, or when for some reason the team can't handle what we're facing.
Can't remember if Traps has Gun Drone, but that one is egregiously long animating for Devices, too. Stupid Malta make me jealous whenever I see them just toss theirs out (well, pretty much). |
I believe the OP's point was that because traps is almost entirely comprised of psuedopets there was a chance that the defender version was going to be identical to the corruptor version because sometimes someone at PS takes the day off rather than making psuedopets specific to each AT.
It isn't identical which is great, but aside from the end penalty attached to MM's the corr version IS identical to the MM version and as far as I know MMs are actually supposed to be weaker than corrs when it comes to debuffing.
I believe his point is that if you take the MM version of traps as the base line than the corr version should pretty much be the current defender version and the defender version should be even stronger. Or if we say def and corr are good to go then the MM version is currently too strong.
I personally enjoyed my fire/traps corr, it was a nice change of pace and if I ever finish the build it should be pretty impressive, but ya corr traps isn't that good.
Basically, OP doesn't understand how ATs work.
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No I'm sure he does, Jibikao is a knowledgeable poster. He also understands that pseudo pets are often not correctly reworked to adhere to AT modifiers meaning they often completely ignore "How AT's work". Do you require examples?|
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
Basically, OP doesn't understand how ATs work.
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(AFAIK) I'll give two conditional statements:
a/ IF defender traps has the correct values then MM traps is overperforming
b/ IF MM traps has the correct values then Corr and Def traps need to be increased a bit more.
Which scenario one would prefer is up to the person. I'm guessing A/ is what would eventually be changed as it is easiest. I'm also guessing nothing will be changed.
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MM traps may be over performing, but keep in mind the balance came from the increased endurance costs.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
No I'm sure he does, Jibikao is a knowledgeable poster. He also understands that pseudo pets are often not correctly reworked to adhere to AT modifiers meaning they often completely ignore "How AT's work". Do you require examples?
(AFAIK) I'll give two conditional statements: a/ IF defender traps has the correct values then MM traps is overperforming b/ IF MM traps has the correct values then Corr and Def traps need to be increased a bit more. Which scenario one would prefer is up to the person. I'm guessing A/ is what would eventually be changed as it is easiest. I'm also guessing nothing will be changed. |
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What people who are adamant about the AT modifiers don't seem to understand is that we were told that powers that create pseudo pets (and regular pets for that matter) were not affected by said modifiers. That's why a Dominator's Fire Imps do the same amount of damage as a Controller's despite the Dominator having higher damage modifiers. But for a more related example, let's take a look at a Brute's Lightning Rod and a Stalker's Lightning Rod. Because of AT modifiers, the Stalker's should do more damage, but it doesn't because the power creates a pseudo pet, causing both ATs to do the same damage with the same power (unenhanced, unbuffed).*
Because of said mechanic, it was believed that the Defender's traps would be the same as the Corruptor's. Because Traps is composed entirely of pseudo pets. But as it turns out, that's not the case. Which means a Corruptor's Traps should be doing more than their Mastermind counterpart.
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This is not true, every power in every Mastermind's secondary sets costs more endurance and does less healing/buffing/debuffing than their Corruptor counterpart.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
MM traps may be over performing, but keep in mind the balance came from the increased endurance costs.
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*I just checked the Tanker and Scrapper versions.... the Tanker does MORE damage with Lightning Rod than a *Stalker*. Obviously they fixed the problem with pseudo pets and I expect a Dominators pets to start doing more damage based on their enhanced damage modifier than their Controller counterparts.
For reference, this is how much damage Lightning Rod does based on AT at level 50 according to the Character Creator on test.
Brute: 133.46
Stalker: 133.46
Tanker: 141.47
Scrapper: 200.20
Edit: I am willing to see this as an oversight on the Devs' parts if they up the Stalker's Lightning Rod, the Dominator pets' damage, and the Corruptor's values on traps. Otherwise, well, you know what they say about Devs and villains.
Edit 2: Mysteriously... not all pseudo pet powers being proliferated are being affected by AT modifier. I'll give an example, again at level 50:
Defender's Rain of Arrows: 97.54
Corruptor's Rain of Arrows: 98.99
Odd because it seems that they would have simply been the same damage, but it's an anemic difference that won't be noticeable.
The devs have historically done a piss poor job differentiating the pseudo pets when handing them around various AT's. Considering some of them are done properly there is really only one explanation and it rhymes with craziness, but is actually laziness.
For anyone wondering I can assure you that if someone was doing their job Defender, Corruptor, AND MM tarpatch would NOT be the same debuff value.
It is very nice to see that L Rod has been adjusted in the port to heroes... poor stalkers must have been "overlooked".
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QFT|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Defenders will have Traps as their primary, so they are inherently better then the Corrupter version.
Defenders have their blasts as a secondary and are inherently worse then the Corrupter versions. |
Since its there Primary it gets a buff.
Corruptor secondaries are matched only by Controller secondaries numbers wise. If controllers got traps it would have the exact same attributes as corruptors would have.
In the same case Radiation, Storm, Sonic, Force field, dark buffs are naturally higher % numbers wise to defenders since its there primary where corruptors would be lower since its there secondary. (Same for trollers, storm, rad, sonic, bubbles etc)
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The whole 'primaries are more powerful' thing may be a good basic guide but isn't really a rule- ask any Blaster.
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Except he demonstrated he does, while many who posted demonstrated they do not.|
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
Basically, OP doesn't understand how ATs work.
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He was just wrong about MM mods being lower. Some MM mods, such as res and def, are just as high, so with traps they are balanced correctly. Heal is less. There are even some that are more.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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For the most part, heals are a little less, and most powers seem to cost more endurance compared to the corrupter equivalents.. There are different ways to balance powers other than pure strength - and MMs can take the extra end cost since they main damage dealing powers are pets.
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Except he demonstrated he does, while many who posted demonstrated they do not.
He was just wrong about MM mods being lower. Some MM mods, such as res and def, are just as high, so with traps they are balanced correctly. Heal is less. There are even some that are more. |
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No, MM debuffs are fairly consistently lower than that of Controllers and Corruptors. Their buffs seem to be equal.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Controllers, Corruptors and MMs share (almost) the same values for their buff/debuff modifiers because they both have the buff/debuff category as their secondary.
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MM debuffs (doesn't include slows, those have a separate modifier) are usually at 0.6 of a Defender's debuff value, though they sometimes go lower (to 0.5 at its lowest). There are very few exceptions.
Most of the exceptions are in powers that summon a pet since pets don't automatically adhere to AT modifiers. In order to change their values, a new pet has to be created alongside a new power to summon the new pet. The reason MMs simply have a higher endurance cost on their powers is probably laziness/time constraints as a quick way to effect "balance". This means powers like Tar Patch and Disruption Arrow work at full strength when they really, really shouldn't (really).
The only exception to this that doesn't involve pseudo-pets is the -Res on Acid Arrow. The -Def in the same power is at the expected 0.6 of a Defender's value.
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None of the mastermind buff/debuff modifiers go below 60% defender value. As you note, powers which seem to can be tailored pets, but they can also be a result of different scales on the powers themselves. Poison Gas Arrow, for example, not only uses distinct modifiers for defenders (0.125), controllers (0.1) and masterminds (0.075), but also has a higher scale value for defenders (2.5, versus 2.0 for controllers and masterminds).|
Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
No, MM debuffs are fairly consistently lower than that of Controllers and Corruptors. Their buffs seem to be equal.
MM debuffs (doesn't include slows, those have a separate modifier) are usually at 0.6 of a Defender's debuff value, though they sometimes go lower (to 0.5 at its lowest). There are very few exceptions. |
Also, all debuffs have separate modifiers. There is no "Everything Except Slows" modifiers, each type of debuff references a different modifier in the database (or a negative value of a buff modifier).
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| Most of the exceptions are in powers that summon a pet since pets don't automatically adhere to AT modifiers. In order to change their values, a new pet has to be created alongside a new power to summon the new pet. The reason MMs simply have a higher endurance cost on their powers is probably laziness/time constraints as a quick way to effect "balance". This means powers like Tar Patch and Disruption Arrow work at full strength when they really, really shouldn't (really). |
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| The only exception to this that doesn't involve pseudo-pets is the -Res on Acid Arrow. The -Def in the same power is at the expected 0.6 of a Defender's value. |
If anyone hasn't guessed by this point, masterminds access the same /TA database entries that controllers do. That's why the pet powers are identical to controller /TA pets, and why they don't gain the defender Acid PvP 3.0 -Res scale or PGA 2.5 -Dam scale. Corruptors likely access the controller /TA entries as well (but again, i haven't checked, so i'm not certain).
Endurance Drain, +Defense and -Res (negative value of +Res) for masterminds also use higher than 60% defender modifiers (80%, 75% and 75%, respectively). Note, however, this is presuming that all powers access the Ranged table. To the best of my knowledge, all TA powers do use Ranged modifiers (or, in the case of pets, have been specifically tailored to give the same result as using the Ranged modifiers), but if any were to use Melee mods, they would be much closer to defender values, with none being less than 80% defender values (ex: APP and PPP "armor" powers use the Melee Res modifier, which is identical for defenders and masterminds (and controllers and tanks)).
I think the crowning jewel that shows how inconsistent pseudo pets are:
Lightning Rod.
Scrapper 200 dam
Tank 141 dam
Brute 133 dam
Stalker 133 dam.
Oops forgot to make stalkers a new one 
All well they're just stalkers right... But the best example to show how consistently corner cutting they can be with pseudo pets is tarpatch. It is the same for everyone that gets it and you better believe that makes my dark/rad def unhappy, but for that toon I say everyone can keep what they have want a new and better one
Just FYI.
Be well, people of CoH.