SoA are an army, there skills work together they buff each other. When you make a VEAT you make a toon that's better than the reast of the SoA army out there, due to the training and skill of your toon. It will beat and has beaten it's regiment an fellow conrades in battle to become a number one Arachnos soldier.
Your toon your create is epic because it's battled it's way to the top of it's regiment and become smething special within the SoA army.
There background of being an average joe in a massive army, building there wayto the top and through the intence training proved themselves to be the best of there kind.
Or atleast that's why my NW is "Epic" background wise.
@Effy
Effy On Hot Sauce Fire/Cold Corr
Effy On Hot Chilli Fire/Dark Corr
Effy On Heat FM/SD Before FoTM
Effy Unleashed DP/EN Blaster 1st 50 @ Union
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Sorry, Malibu, but I'd argue that while that's a good character background it is far from epic. Some guy works out and trains hard and gets a pat on the head. Not epic. I agree completely that your story is a good background for a character. That doesn't make the VEAT epic. It makes the VEAT a little more specific than other ATs, but having a little background doesn't make it epic.|
Originally Posted by Effy_On_Malibu
SoA are an army, there skills work together they buff each other. When you make a VEAT you make a toon that's better than the reast of the SoA army out there, due to the training and skill of your toon. It will beat and has beaten it's regiment an fellow conrades in battle to become a number one Arachnos soldier.
Your toon your create is epic because it's battled it's way to the top of it's regiment and become smething special within the SoA army. There background of being an average joe in a massive army, building there wayto the top and through the intence training proved themselves to be the best of there kind. Or atleast that's why my NW is "Epic" background wise. |
And again I say, this is NOT about the powers or how fun they are to play. The way the powers work together or how the characters work together certainly makes them different, but different is not "epic".
Epic, by definition, is majestic, of great scope and vast range. "A guy joined the military and worked his way up" is not of great scope, no matter how beautifully embellished it is.
And please don't get the impression I'm dissing your character background. Far from it. I'm only talking about the background of the VEATs in general. I'm comparing them to the HEAT background. Both are written by the devs, not the players. It just seems to me that they could have come up with something equally epic in scope for the villains as they did with the heroes. "Hey, now that you've gotten your 'Destined Lackey of Arachnos' up to level 50, come make a character that's even more obviously a peon in the same guy's stable!" Sorry, not seeing it.
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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"Epic," as defined by the Devs in regards to "Epic Archetypes", means "has a unique storyline encompassing the character's career from 1-50."
Both Kheldians and Soldiers of Arachnos fit this definition.
If you follow the Soldiers' story, you are not some average joe, content to be part of the herd. You are actively trying to better yourself and your position within the heirarchy. Even if that weren't the case, Widows and Banes are a far cry from average. Both are selected from the ranks of Arachnos (or recruited into Arachnos) because of their mental abilities.
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Your Soldier of Arachnos isn't "working his way up." You are taking extraordinary measures to put yourself on top. I have three SoAs whose sole purpose is to overthrow Lord Recluse and take over Arachnos for themselves. The other two are loyal, if ambitious, Soldiers.| Epic, by definition, is majestic, of great scope and vast range. "A guy joined the military and worked his way up" is not of great scope, no matter how beautifully embellished it is. |
If you play your Soldier as "rank and file," you will never feel "Epic."
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
In the end, it is up to you to decide how special you want to pretend your character is. The fact is that no matter what you play, your character is not special. At all. And this is a natural and inevitable consequence of current MMO design, so there's no use crying about it.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Nobody is crying about anything. That's kind of a silly thing to say. My point is that these devs have the ability to build some truly epic things and this time they didn't. Just sayin'. Done now.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
In the end, it is up to you to decide how special you want to pretend your character is. The fact is that no matter what you play, your character is not special. At all. And this is a natural and inevitable consequence of current MMO design, so there's no use crying about it.
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--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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Fair enough. The bit about crying was more in preemptive reaction to the sort of person who complains about not being special in a game that, by design, can't privilege certain members of its population over others, nor allow accomplishments to have any visible scope outside a given player's experience. Within the scope of the game's fiction, you may feel more special about being an alien hybrid than a super-soldier. Then again, you don't have to limit yourself to what the backstory makes of you, either, which is why I said the decision is in your hands.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Nobody is crying about anything. That's kind of a silly thing to say. My point is that these devs have the ability to build some truly epic things and this time they didn't. Just sayin'. Done now.
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The tricky bit is not in writing your character as awesome - it's in getting anyone else to believe, acknowledge, or care about it. And frankly, I think that the writing of this game is much more convincing when it stops trying to treat you like a special snowflake, which is ludicrous on its face, and starts treating you as just another metahuman in a world teeming with them.
(This is, incidentally, one of the few things that really interests me about Arachnos - while Paragon City tries to treat every meta like a celebrity, Recluse throws them into a pit and uses what he learns from watching them fight to make his own. It's a clever enough plan that I doubt he thought it up himself.)
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Also, if you play through the whole VEAT Specific story arc, you end up leaving the army and proving how amazing you are by beating the crap out of anyone in your way, INCLUDING Kalinda, to the point where you officially are a Destined One.
@Mazzo Grave
Webmaster Grave, Virtueverse!
Energy/Energy Blaster Guide
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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To the OP, they are epic in an evil Rambo sense 
Well, first of all the word "Epic" as the devs use it here really does not mean the same thing as "epic". According to Merriam-Webster, "epic" has two definitions. One is "relating to or having the characteristics of an epic, as an epic poem". Slightly, in some way that might fit, as they have an overarching storyline. The other is "extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope".
The latter definition is more definately NOT the case, as neither Epic Archetype extends beyond the usual when it comes to Archetypes in this game. Neither HEATs or VEATs are stronger or more powerful than the regular Archetypes, although they do have capabilities other ATs don't. Kheldians are not more powerful tanks than Tankers, though, even in Dwarf form, neither are they more powerful blasters than Blasters, even in Nova form. They do have the unique capability to transfer from Nova to Dwarf to Human form, changing their characteristics while doing so, but for the most part each of their forms are analogous to ATs you have already played.
Likewise, SoA are not really all that different from Corruptors, Dominators, Stalkers, and Masterminds. They bring a new balance to the combination of ranged offense, melee offense, and defense, but there's nothing new or unique. They are not "epic" in that they are more powerful than any other villain Archetype, they simply are what they are.
I think the key to understanding the use of the word "Epic" is to think of how it is applied to the Epic Pools. The Epic Pools are not all that much greater and more powerful than the ordinary powers of an AT. If anything, they are WEAKER, they usually have much longer recharge times, cost more Endurance, and provide less protection. (for defenses, anyway) The point of the Epic pools is not to give the AT new, unique powers that are more powerful than any other AT at lesser level, in fact, most of them are just powers that the other ATs got sooner.
Rather, the point of the "Epic" pools is to balance the Archetypes, and give them something they didn't have before. Likewise, while the EAT's aren't really more powerful than the other ATs, they are in many ways more balanced. Kheldians are balanced by definition, they can form shift to take on any role needed on a team, while SoA as a rule have combinations of powers than no other AT can have. They have strong defenses, long range attacks, strong melee attacks, stealth, and team oriented buffs. While they don't excel in any one area, they are definately "Jack of All Trades".
As for SoA's just being "grunts", well, the whole idea of the SoA storyline is that you're TIRED of being a "grunt", you want to prove yourself something better, like one of these "Destined Ones", and so you add yourself to the list. And really, when you get down to it, aren't the Peacebringers and Warshades a paramilitary organization as well? The Peacebringers have been at war with the Nictus for millions of years, and they didn't do that by being pacifists and hiding out in the far reaches of space. They've been searching for the Nictus to kill them. And in fact, when the Sunstorm merged with a human cop to make contact with the Earthlings, he found the latter's compassion and diplomacy totally changed his personality and attitude towards the war. He had actually been looking for a soldier, like himself.
Really, the only argument you seem to be making is that since SoA aren't "super enough", being only Naturals, that they aren't good enough to be "epic". But Naturals in this game can take on any foe. That's not just gameplay, that's part of the game lore, that otherwise ordinary humans, with nothing but willpower and determination, can take on the most powerful beings in this universe or an infinity of others. And SoA have extremely advanced technology, and highly trained mental powers on their side as well.
So yeah, I would say that I'm not dissatisfied with the SoA backstory. Maybe it would be nice to be a Nictus, or a Coralax, or a Blood of the Black Stream, or on the hero side, maybe a Longbow. But with Going Rogue, hopefully an evil Nictus or good Longbow Soldier (undercover) will be possible, if a little tedious to work into the storyline. And besides, my Crab already knows she's destined to be more than just a grunt, she feels she was called, and who knows, maybe she was.
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Yeah, there you go. |
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
To the OP, they are epic in an evil Rambo sense
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Maybe it's because you're not just one more grunt in the organization, you're the grunt that had personality in chapter 17 and who reappears constantly, becoming stronger and stronger and less grunt-like until you're a full fledged archvillain planning to conquer the world in chapter 50. You're the minion who stops being a minion, who struggles and succeeds against all odds in a world of villains and heroes who are cosmically powerful and should be able to beat you easily and yet...they don't. How ISN'T that epic?
EDIT: ...Jade Dragon said everything I wanted to say, but did it better. Maybe next time I won't take an hour trying to post.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../MookPromotion -- here, have a TV Tropes link that pretty much describes the SoAs. At least I can offer something unique.
Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!
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Fortunatas, NWs and Crabs are tank-mages in every sense of the word. They are substantially stronger than any Corrupter, Stalker or Dominator I've seen. Some MMs are on their level, but not all.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Likewise, SoA are not really all that different from Corruptors, Dominators, Stalkers, and Masterminds. They bring a new balance to the combination of ranged offense, melee offense, and defense, but there's nothing new or unique. They are not "epic" in that they are more powerful than any other villain Archetype, they simply are what they are.
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Forts, for example, have high ranged damage, high melee damage, control, defenses, buffs, debuffs & top end mez protection.
What Corruptor, Dom or Stalker has all that?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The Kheldian arc still blows the VEAT one out of the water, any day of the week. It has multiple plotlines, all connected by the larger story of the war against the Nictus, and the Nictus' own attempts to take over the Council. By comparison, the VEAT arc is amazingly flimsy. I found it the only really disappointing thing about the villain Epics. |
Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
Also, if you play through the whole VEAT Specific story arc, you end up leaving the army and proving how amazing you are by beating the crap out of anyone in your way, INCLUDING Kalinda, to the point where you officially are a Destined One.
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Well, that and waiting a year for buttcapes on Widows.
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Where do you get that interpretation? The story I played through has you as an extremely talented and powerful member of Arachnos who challenges the authority of the Rogue Isles' immortal despot, shows him/herself to be Lord Recluse's superior and eventually succeeds in a task (defeating Statesman) that has eluded the despot for decades.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Look at the background of the Villain "epic" ATs: Some Joe/Jane Schmoe signed up to be a paramilitary lackey to a backwater uber-villain and worked their way up through the ranks.
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That sounds pretty epic to me. YMMV.
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| Now look at the background of the Hero "epic" ATs: Energy beings fighting an inter-dimensional battle for the survival of their race are forced to flee to the far reaches of the multi-verse and merge with the citizens there in order to find allies in their ongoing struggle against their ancestral enemies. |
See what I did there? It was the converse of your OP. I accentuated the good points of VEATs and focused on the negatives of HEATs. IMO, both are pretty epic in different ways. Yes, HEATs have a pretty tragic backstory and while their story leave a bit to be desired, it's OK.
The VEATs, from story to powers, own. Just my opinion.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The Kheldian arcs are some of the worst and most tedious content I've played in this game. I prefer the standard hero content. |
Originally Posted by Menteur
The Kheldian arc still blows the VEAT one out of the water, any day of the week. It has multiple plotlines, all connected by the larger story of the war against the Nictus, and the Nictus' own attempts to take over the Council. By comparison, the VEAT arc is amazingly flimsy. I found it the only really disappointing thing about the villain Epics.
Well, that and waiting a year for buttcapes on Widows. |
By contrast the SoA arcs are crisp, to the point, and magnificent in what your character accomplishes.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Maybe at high level, but in the early levels I've found Soldiers play very like Corruptors, while Widows are pretty much Claws Scrappers with a really early ranged attack. In fact, when it comes to melee, they are FAR more fragile than any meleer, even a Stalker. (And I honestly don't think that should change) |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Fortunatas, NWs and Crabs are tank-mages in every sense of the word. They are substantially stronger than any Corrupter, Stalker or Dominator I've seen. Some MMs are on their level, but not all.
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I must admit the mez protection is quite a relief in some ways. However, you shouldn't be encountering that much mez problem until the 30s, so it really isn't an issue early on.
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Forts, for example, have high ranged damage, high melee damage, control, defenses, buffs, debuffs & top end mez protection. What Corruptor, Dom or Stalker has all that? |
Granted I have yet to get my first Crab to 24, though it should be soon, but I have never seen anyone agree that the Kheldians or SoA are what are thought of as "Epic" Archetypes, the uber powerful ATs that let you own the content as your reward for getting to 50. They are in fact more of a challenge than the standard Archetypes, you are expected to use your knowledge that you gained getting to 50 to apply it to this new, somewhat unique playstyle.
That's what's meant by "Epic".
Now, if you want to correct me on that, let me know. I do know that SoA are overall considered stronger, while Kheldians take the greater skill and timing. Still, it seems as if you are playing a hybrid, not a tank mage. I'm not invulnerable to damage, I still have to Web Grenade my foes down and keep them out of melee if I want to do my best. Granted the damage is great. Coming from my Kheldians the damage really does seem great. But I'm not standing in the middle of a dozen foes pounding on them like I would with my Dwarf. Not yet anyway.
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Absent defense debuffers, I'm doing exactly that. Walking into groups set for 8 and crushing them with my Widow. And this is not with an absurd IO investment.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Granted I have yet to get my first Crab to 24, though it should be soon, but I have never seen anyone agree that the Kheldians or SoA are what are thought of as "Epic" Archetypes, the uber powerful ATs that let you own the content as your reward for getting to 50. They are in fact more of a challenge than the standard Archetypes, you are expected to use your knowledge that you gained getting to 50 to apply it to this new, somewhat unique playstyle.
That's what's meant by "Epic". Now, if you want to correct me on that, let me know. I do know that SoA are overall considered stronger, while Kheldians take the greater skill and timing. Still, it seems as if you are playing a hybrid, not a tank mage. I'm not invulnerable to damage, I still have to Web Grenade my foes down and keep them out of melee if I want to do my best. Granted the damage is great. Coming from my Kheldians the damage really does seem great. But I'm not standing in the middle of a dozen foes pounding on them like I would with my Dwarf. Not yet anyway. |
My Huntsman/Bane is a bit squisher true enough. But VEATs truly are epic. I think a lot of people don't quite 'get' VEATs at low level, but both branches are always stronger than other villain ATs IMO at equivalent levels.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Well, that pretty much invalidates the whole topic. VEAT's ARE "Epic". And uber. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Absent defense debuffers, I'm doing exactly that. Walking into groups set for 8 and crushing them with my Widow. And this is not with an absurd IO investment.
My Huntsman/Bane is a bit squisher true enough. But VEATs truly are epic. I think a lot of people don't quite 'get' VEATs at low level, but both branches are always stronger than other villain ATs IMO at equivalent levels. |
I guess Widows and Crabs are built better for tanking than Banes and Fortunatas. Which I guess makes a lot of sense. Then again, as I said in Dwarf form I'm easily tanking groups that size. I certainly look forward to getting there with my Crab, she already got way better when she hit 20, and I just spec'ed into Stamina with my second build, to hurry things up. She's still finishing fights almost out of health, but at least she's finishing them and not having to retreat because my End has run out.
I don't know, though, most ATs seem to get that much better after 22. I'm not sure it's as much an EAT is a "tank mage" as he can do what a tank mage can do with a reasonable amount of risk.
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Nobody is crying about anything. That's kind of a silly thing to say. My point is that these devs have the ability to build some truly epic things and this time they didn't. Just sayin'. Done now.
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LOL don't bother. You've been around here long enough to know that if you don't tow the party line 100% on these forums you are "crying" or a "troll".
Just accept that you have an opinion, and a question that you would like input on without rancor. Also accept that you are entitled to both, just not here.
I personally agree with you completely. I LOVE my VEAT's Oh GAHD do I love them. But I agree that their diecast mass produced storyline is miles from the truly epic Kheldian storyline... There was a LOT that could have been done there and never was. Years of content that could have been written...
Same as the Khelds I guess. Introduced and then forgotten. If I were you I would do what I have done. My VEAT is Epic because I MADE him epic. A background and story that are great in scope and history.
Other than that, can't really tell you anything you don't already know.
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
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Basically, you pull a Superboy-Prime, and punch Destiny so hard in the face it changes.
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
Also, if you play through the whole VEAT Specific story arc, you end up leaving the army and proving how amazing you are by beating the crap out of anyone in your way, INCLUDING Kalinda, to the point where you officially are a Destined One.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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My Widow is the Destined One. She killed Statesman and her war with Recluse over the leadership of Arachnos thrust the world into ruin. When her younger self was exploring this future domain through Arachnos's portal technology, she fled the ruin of her future to her past, to make another attempt at taking over Arachnos from the inside, hopefully this time without the "thrusting the world into ruin" part.
I'm not sure what your definition of Epic is, but that fits mine.
I have to go along with the "Disappointed in the storyline" group.
You killed Recluse? Congrats. So did every other Destined One. How does that make you "epic' again?
Oh, you killed Statesman. Um, again - LRSF, Ouroboros, potentially Recluse's Victory. Not exactly a unique achivement. It's just slightly above bragging you've wiped out 1000 Longbow by 50. So has everyone else.
So where's the epic story? Not in the one mission here, two mission there stories. Those of you saying "I'm filling in the blanks," well - write it in AE. It still doesn't affect the "ha ha, you were being laughed at the entire time" breadcrumbs here and there. You're writing fanfic in your head. I'm glad it gives you enjoyment, I'm not putting it down, but it doesn't make the official arcs any better.
I would have been happy, at least, to find out that you don't run the same Patron arcs. I mean, come on, you've already found out you're being jerked around by Recluse, so... you go to a patron, and find out you're being jerked around by Recluse again. It didn't have spectacular impact the first time, a second time on the same character is just tiresome. At least having something unique there that you could call an arc would have been worthwhile.
The devs did so much, but the veat arcs just seem like an afterthought past 15 or 20, like they had to rush it out the door. They had a basis showing some infighting they could really have built off of, and then just threw it all away. We got the cliffs notes of the readers digest version.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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Actually, in the game, your achievement is always defeating Statesman, Recluse, Ms. Liberty, etc. You never kill them. |
Originally Posted by Stormbird
You killed Recluse? Congrats. So did every other Destined One. How does that make you "epic' again?
Oh, you killed Statesman. Um, again - LRSF, Ouroboros, potentially Recluse's Victory. Not exactly a unique achivement. |
Except in the future that doesn't happen in the Patron arcs, in which case you do actually kill Statesman - which is something else altogether from the LRSF, with results you see in the arc.
I find the "blah blah, you're not special, nothing you do matters" attitude in MMO players rather tiresome, and helps explain to me why so many get burned out on the games. Imagination matters. It's important - and not just in games.
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You're looking way too deep into the word/meaning "epic" when referring to the special villain class.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
This has nothing to do with powers or power level. It has nothing to do with changing shapes or cool costumes. It has nothing to do with story arcs or being villains. It doesn't even have to do with if the ATs are fun to play or not. It's about background. How is it remotely epic to be just one more grunt in just one more paramilitary organization?
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City of Heroes has the HEAT so it only made since to call the villain version the VEAT. It has less to do with the definition of a word and more to do with just recycling the title. I personally find the Widows to be very epic in story and character and like the previous poster said it comes down to imagination. Your story along with the pre-existing story for Arachnos means you can be as epic as you want to be.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Three points:
1) No, this thread will NOT be about power level
2) There's another thread on a similar topic to this but it has more to do with appearance.
3) This is more to the devs (from whom I beg forgiveness) than to the players because as far as I know it's only one person's opinion.
I'd like to discuss this because I've tried to get into SoAs but just have never been able to enjoy them and I've finally figured out why. It has nothing to do with their powers or their look or the story arc (or lack thereof) they have available. It has to do with their background.
Look at the background of the Villain "epic" ATs: Some Joe/Jane Schmoe signed up to be a paramilitary lackey to a backwater uber-villain and worked their way up through the ranks.
Now look at the background of the Hero "epic" ATs: Energy beings fighting an inter-dimensional battle for the survival of their race are forced to flee to the far reaches of the multi-verse and merge with the citizens there in order to find allies in their ongoing struggle against their ancestral enemies.
How the heck are VEATs actually epic? I'm sorry, but that's just weak. I'm really hoping I don't get smacked with a Dev Stick here, but I gotta say the background of the Soldiers of Arachnos leaves a whole lot to be desired.
This has nothing to do with powers or power level. It has nothing to do with changing shapes or cool costumes. It has nothing to do with story arcs or being villains. It doesn't even have to do with if the ATs are fun to play or not. It's about background. How is it remotely epic to be just one more grunt in just one more paramilitary organization?
Let the flame war begin...
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)