My theory is:
1. It was originally a bug that it didn't have a to hit debuff. Does it still accept to hit debuff? It used to.
2. When the Global Defense Nerf came around, and they decided that they JUST COULDN'T let a power like Mass Confusion go (despite having let all the AoE Stuns go-- go figure), they just gave Mind Control twice the beating everybody else took in that department.
3. Then, realizing what they'd done, they promptly decided to tweak up Terrify, adding the extra damage and stuff.
4. Then somebody said: "Woops! Terrify prob'ly oughtta have a -to hit component, but.... we've just tweaked the bejesus out of it. Better leave it alone forever."
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Adding a nice (-20% ToHit for 20s) debuff to Terrify would definitely improve it's utility, though.
The main problem with the power is the immediate Alpha you suffer when using it, with a ToHit debuff though, it wouldn't hurt nearly as much.
Quote:
I'm pretty sure it doesn't get -Tohit because Mind Control is absurdly good already, it's a control set not a debuff set, and the set doesn't need help?|
Originally Posted by Krya
Title says it all I suppose. Every other terror power in the game supplies -ToHit, including both of Phantasm's terror effects. Why is Terrify from Mind the odd one out? Am I missing some obscure balance point?
I have 6 slotted Terrify on my Mind/Thorn Dom and I have been wondering why I bother with it. In team settings it provides about the same control as Mass Hypnosis, which I can at least leverage in the RSF. Solo Mass Hypnosis is actually superior to Terrify because it can stack on Mesmerize and is Targetted AoE and does not alert. I mean, is Terrify anything more then a backup sleep with mediocre damage attached to it? |
Also, I completely disagree that Mass Hyp is better, either on teams, or solo. I find Terrify to be better because Feared guys stay Feared when attacked. Likely just a playstyle difference.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Quote:
While Mind Control starts strong, it stagnates at the higher levels. I doubt adding a -20% to hit to Terrify would overpower the set that is somewhat underperforming now. |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
I'm pretty sure it doesn't get -Tohit because Mind Control is absurdly good already, it's a control set not a debuff set, and the set doesn't need help?
Also, I completely disagree that Mass Hyp is better, either on teams, or solo. I find Terrify to be better because Feared guys stay Feared when attacked. Likely just a playstyle difference. |
Of course, with how well controllers are doing in general, I don't know when the Devs are going to bother looking at Mind Control... or Gravity, for that matter, which is probably in worse shape.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Quote:
lol|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
While Mind Control starts strong, it stagnates at the higher levels.
|
Quote:
| the set that is somewhat underperforming now. |
Underperforming....compared to what?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Quote:
Other control sets.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
lol
no really, wth are you talking about? Underperforming....compared to what? |
I will admit, my observations have been from a single server, and not a high-population one at that, but... after 32, I have only ever seen one Mind Control/ controller. Fire Control remains predominant, but Ice and Earth become more welcome. Illusions and Plant always seem popular, and...
Well, Gravity's got other issues, and seems to be rare at any level.
Also, I would point out that it is only somewhat underperforming. Any Mind Control player can easily provide the mass shutdown that they would be desired for. But the lack of a pet, little reliable mass-containment, and no additional debuff effect... means that teams aren't looking to Mind Control when they want a 'troller.
I also haven't taken a look at how it is for Dominators - with no Containment issues and a damage-devoted secondary, I can imagine that Mind Control is better for the Dominator than the Controller.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Quote:
I gotta tell you, the lack of the pet, the perceived lack of containment, the lack of additional effects, are all because a Mind Controllers powers are so much better than any other set at Actually Controlling the mobs.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Other control sets.
I will admit, my observations have been from a single server, and not a high-population one at that, but... after 32, I have only ever seen one Mind Control/ controller. Fire Control remains predominant, but Ice and Earth become more welcome. Illusions and Plant always seem popular, and... Well, Gravity's got other issues, and seems to be rare at any level. Also, I would point out that it is only somewhat underperforming. Any Mind Control player can easily provide the mass shutdown that they would be desired for. But the lack of a pet, little reliable mass-containment, and no additional debuff effect... means that teams aren't looking to Mind Control when they want a 'troller. I also haven't taken a look at how it is for Dominators - with no Containment issues and a damage-devoted secondary, I can imagine that Mind Control is better for the Dominator than the Controller. |
All that extra stuff is really icing. Mind has other advantages you don't seem to realize, such as bypassing most defense, having several non aggro controls, having an autohit hold, and having stackable confuses.
My experience is pretty much the opposite. Fire Control is extremely popular because of how much damage it does, but Fire Controllers are basically pretty bad at actually mezzing mobs. I hardly ever see anything but Fire and Illusions. Earth, Ice and Mind are equally rare. Mostly however, I see that Mind Controllers actually shut down spawns. The others tend not to, mostly.
Ice and Earth spend a lot of time with mobs flopping about, which is great but doesn't accomplish the same thing as a Hold or a Confuse.
Illusions and Fire basically tank instead of actually controlling, mostly.
Mostly however, the fact that the set is played more rarely is NOT an indication that it is underpowered. It lacks a pet, yes, that does not necessarily mean it's overpowered. Frankly, the Pets don't add that much on a team. The Sing is good. The imps and phantasm do good damage. The Poo man and Jack and Venus are pretty unimpressive.
In any case, you are perfectly entitled to PREFER the other sets for whatever reasons you like, but I assure you Mind Control is NOT underpowered. It's just different.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I disagree with just about everything in Wavicle's post.
Quote:
>_> that word you used...
| having an autohit hold |
The other point of contention is that the FEAR in illusion does no damage. With containment terrify is awesome to behold.
Mind doesn't really under perform at higher lvls. The biggest dig you see on mind is people yelling because Plant gets its AOE confuse and a pet. Granted its a cone and draws aggro.
On a troller terrify after sleep is fantastic. On teams not so much, but teamed with another troller and you get containment from their AOE immob.
You see more fire because it is the premier farming set. I seldom see a fire who isn't /kin. Just about every lvl 50 FIRE I see is a /kin. Reasons which have already been pointed out in many threads for ages.
I don't think Terrify would be over powered with a slight -tohit. Tho i don't think it should be higher then Spectral Terror which is -15%. Just my opinion mind you but I think of Terrify as more of a damage cone so on my trollers I always use it after containment. Unless teaming, then that baby gets used when its up. I wish they would stop it from taking -tohit sets tho. But they have some nice procs so its not really bad.
But I like the differences between each set and how their play styles differ. Better seems to be a situation endeavor. With many sets shining in one area and not so in another.
Quote:
Yes? Telekinesis, doesn't require a tohit check...that makes it autohit...|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
>_> that word you used...
|
Did you have some point to make?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
forgot about that power, oh well, I still find it to be the least needed tool.
Quote:
- Hmmm...'least needed', true...to a point. Situational at best and doom to the controller when poorly applied (THIS power draws aggro) Telekinesis, however, CAN take an entire mob and effectively put it out of play. Not phased like some powers, but stuffed in a corner like a bunch of poorly behaved children to be decimated whenever the team feels inclined to (as long as the...*ahem*...controller maintains endurance).|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
forgot about that power, oh well, I still find it to be the least needed tool.
|
- Telekinesis is one of the true 'Skill Powers' that Mind Control has...use it if you know what you're doing. Avoid it like the plague if you happen to enjoy mashing buttons and have little grasp of basic physics (i.e. - objects will move AWAY from you and in order to decide where you WANT them, you have to literally be opposite that location). It takes some getting used to...I personally rate that power as exceptional - the only thing you need is endurance, the power takes care of itself.
- To the OP, I agree...why DOESN'T Terrify have a ToHit Debuff? Compared to all the other 'scary powers' like almost all Dark Powersets...are they saying that illusionary fear is not as scary? Can $target REALLY tell the difference?...meh.
Quote:
Yeah, me too.|
Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode
I disagree with just about everything in Wavicle's post.
|
Mind control is underpowered.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Quote:
... can't quite tell if serious >_>|
Originally Posted by Enantiodromos
Yeah, me too.
Mind control is underpowered. |
I still think it should be more powerful, regardless of where it stands in relation to the other sets. Cuz I'm greedy.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Funny how I'm able to solo hazard zone spawns in CF with my underperforming damage lacking mind troller.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
There's the key word.|
Originally Posted by Snakebit
Funny how I'm able to solo hazard zone spawns in CF with my underperforming damage lacking mind troller.
|
This is why I said that Mind is only somewhat underperforming. It is very strong when solo! It becomes lackluster on when teaming. There, the Sleeps and Fear powers are nearly useless, and TK remains highly situational. With only a single built in way to achieve mass-containment, they can not leverage their powers higher damage abilities as well as others, and they have no pet to either help with damage output or tanking duties.
This isn't even considering those that will tell the Mind Controller not to use Mass Confusion - which would only serve to reduce their effectiveness even more.
Even with all that, Mind Control isn't bad on teams. It's just, the other control sets are better.
Well, except Gravity - which is the set that the Devs should look at first, in regards to controls...
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
I have yet to feel "useless" as a mind troller. I always open with Mass Hyp, which at best eliminates the alpha on the lead teammates, or at worst spreads out the damage spike to easily manageable proportions and multiplying by proxy the effectiveness of the defense or damage resistance of the tanks/scrappers. I can eliminate the damage potential of the worst foes, or better yet, turn them into allies. Sappers? Glad to see ya. Stop an added spawn in it's tracks? No problem. Reposition an annoying group of enemies? Done. Shut down multiple single targets? Done. Provide cover for the "back line" while the melee guys mix it up? Done.
It's not necessary to have the ability to lock down multiple spawns (as with earth) in order for mind to bring plenty of equally usefull abilities to a team. Mind does it differently, and with less "flash" than earth, but it does it just as well. Some of the powers in the mind set require a better player at the keyboard than earth does, but that doesn't mean the mind primary is "lacking".
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
The thing about this argument I don't get is: why do you think it's persuasive? How does "I can do X with A" speak to the relative performance of A vs B through G?|
Originally Posted by Snakebit
Funny how I'm able to solo hazard zone spawns in CF with my underperforming damage lacking mind troller.
|
I mean, you could argue:
1) Mind is the ONLY set that can single-target-sleep a mob! It is INFINITELY better at ST sleep than any other set in the game!
2) Mind is the ONLY control set that can do actual repel! It is INFINITELY better at repel than any other control set in the game!
3) Mind is the ONLY set that can do terrify without -toHit. It is INFINITELY better at terrify-sans-toHitDebuff than any set in the game. (There are conceivable situations where you wouldn't want terrify to have a to-hit debuff.)
So, there we have three ways in which Mind massively outperforms other sets.
The problem is, those things OBVIOUSLY don't matter. They don't amount to doodly squat across broadly normative game play.
The same is true, needless to say, of effectively STing huge spawns to death in hazard zones. I can do that too. I have. Many times. Out of boredom. I play lots of Mind-- most likely because I'm a masochistic dreamer. And I've also done it on a Plant/Rad, Fire/Storm, an Ice/Rad, Plant/Kin, and others. It's certainly not a special strength of Mind-- most of these will danger zone sweep better than mind/*. And by any objective measure it's (even) more tediously repetitive than the normative teamed mission doors and TFs, as well as much slower XP.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Not sure I understand what it is you are trying to communicate. I think you are saying that my example of hazard zone hunting is a poor reflection of set performance. That's fine, that's your opinion. My opinion is that any toon that can easily solo a spawn with a mix of bosses, lt's, and minions in a size beyond what is encounterable in solo missions is performing well.
I didn't say mind out performed. I said it is on par with the other sets. Some sets are better in damage, but lack controls. Some sets are better in controls and lack damage. Mind has a nice mix of both. What's the problem with that? "Mind is boring" doesn't mean it underperforms.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Dismissing what's wrong with your analysis by reducing this all to our "opinions" misses the point. We're not talking about our favorite color, we're talking about how the game plays.|
Originally Posted by Snakebit
That's fine, that's your opinion. My opinion is that any toon that can easily solo a spawn with a mix of bosses, lt's, and minions in a size beyond what is encounterable in solo missions is performing well.
|
The game plays so as to appeal in some ways and not in others. [1] Those kinds of appeal are more readily available to people playing on 3+ man teams.
Normative play in the game is 3-8 man teams. The game's constructed around that ideal, and it massively rewards it over and above solo. Moreover, there's TONS of stuff that's essentially or strictly unavailable to solo play at all.
So "what X can solo" is, all opinions aside, a bad way to rate a set's performance. With most sets, it wouldn't be too far off the mark, but with some, like Mind, it is. Mind's much better at soloing than at anything else. And as a controller it is readily able to manage aggro with Mass Hyp.
Besides which, again, there're tons of builds that can outperform Mind soloing in danger zones, so it's not even clear that mind doesn't underperform based on the "solo danger zone spawn" test.
[1]For example, you can't play backgammon in CoX, even though they could set up backgammon interfaces. You can't really play soccer in it, despite the availability of propel artifacts.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Quote:
Powers with Terrorize that cause -ToHit:|
Originally Posted by Krya
Title says it all I suppose. Every other terror power in the game supplies -ToHit, including both of Phantasm's terror effects. Why is Terrify from Mind the odd one out? Am I missing some obscure balance point?
|
Fearsome Stare
Touch of Fear
Cloak of Fear
Spectral Terror (and neither one can be enhanced, even if you somehow get Fear enhancements in it)
Powers with Terrorize that don't cause -ToHit:
Terrify
Scare
Intimidate
Invoke Panic
So it's not as if Terrorize effects without ToHit debuffs are rare; they make up half the Terrorize powers in the game.
QUIT THE DRAMA.
You went off topic too fast. Who cares about your stupid bickering. I came to this thread to learn and the only posts that actually showed me something valuable were the first couple ones.
GET OVER YOURSELF.
In response to Entantio and his genius followers.
<QR>
It's like this.
You run up to someone.
You: "RAAAAHHH I SCAREZ U!"
Them: "Ahh! Holy crap dont do that!"
(At this point they see you, but let's pretend a -ToHit is in Terrify)
You: "Oh man! You cant see me now!"
Them: "What?! I've just been scared and Mr. Scary Man has disappeared into thin air! What is this black magic?!"
See? Makes no sense :P
Seven years of heroism. Seven years of friendships. Seven years of saving the world. Seven years of virtuous selflessness.
You will return, for you are the mighty City of Paragon, the City of Heroes.
Title says it all I suppose. Every other terror power in the game supplies -ToHit, including both of Phantasm's terror effects. Why is Terrify from Mind the odd one out? Am I missing some obscure balance point?
I have 6 slotted Terrify on my Mind/Thorn Dom and I have been wondering why I bother with it. In team settings it provides about the same control as Mass Hypnosis, which I can at least leverage in the RSF. Solo Mass Hypnosis is actually superior to Terrify because it can stack on Mesmerize and is Targetted AoE and does not alert.
I mean, is Terrify anything more then a backup sleep with mediocre damage attached to it?