I've had pretty good luck with ill/FF. Toss in a grant invis from the pools and you get another level of defense for your melee types. I decided not to use group invis because it seemed to be a bit too high on the end cost and the grant invis seemed a bit more functionable.
Be sure to take superior invis for yourself. This adds a bit more to your teamwork as it lets you hang back in support or take off as a scout if needed.
Just my small froggy two cents.
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With Kin and /sonic already being used, I would want a debuffer in there. Fire/ta is an odd combo in that Fire is melee based and /ta is ranged based, but it fits better here than adding in /ff, IMO.
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Illusion is a great set and goes with any primary. But it probably has the least synergy with FF as any secondary. My opinion, of course, as quite a few people like their Ill/FF controllers. But FF adds almost nothing to Illusion. Here are two of several reasons why:|
Originally Posted by opprime28
Ok, so Im making a character for a static team. It's a small team and currenty has a kin/electric defender, and earth/sonic controller, and a claws/dark armor scrapper.
I'm torn between which controller to make. I already have played a plant/kin and illusion/kin to 50, and a fire/rad to 40. I'm working very heavily on an ice/storm corruptor and am interested in a thugs/storm MM so I may avoid storm. I'm thinking about an illusion/bubbler. My thoughts are that with the +res from sonics and the +Def from bubbling, the scrapper could easily reach tanker levels of survivability, and the team would be pretty well protected from most damage. Earth's hard controls would compliment Illusion's distractions, making the team even more survivable. It seems would would lack damage in a lot of ways though. I was ALSO thinking abou a fire/trick arrow controller. Firewould give the team a much higher DPS, will still meshing with Earth's soft controls, and trick arrow would add -res to Earth/sonics -def and -res. It would basically help earth lock EVERYTHING down and debuff it so we're all doing more damage. Any suggestions? Anyone experienced with either of those builds? It's a toon made specifically to team with this group so soloing isn't much of an issue, which would be a concern for the illusion/bubbler. |
(a) Illusion has Invisibiliy to avoid problems. But why bother when you have PFF? When you are invisible, you don't need PFF much, and if you use PFF, you don't need invisibility much. (b) Phantom Army is your most important power, but PA are invulnerable and cannot take buffs, so your bubbles do nothing. PA needs Recharge, Defense Debuff and/or Resistance Debuff to get better, and FF has none of these.
Radiation is the only set with Recharge, Defense Debuff and Resistance Debuff. But if you don't want to do Rad, I suggest either Trick Arrow or Therm. Storm works well with Illusion, too, but can be too chaotic for a team. Ill/TA is a great combo (I have one at 50), and Illusion's ranged powers complement Trick Arrow's ranged controls and Debuffs, while TA fills some of the control holes from Illusion. Therm is a nice utility set, with Resistance shields to stack with those Sonic Shields and make everyone on the team at Resistance cap. But Therm's debuffs come late in the set.
Fire/TA? You know about the Oil Slick Arrow Pet bug? Anytime you light the oil slick, your Imps will run out of the area. That means two of your best powers have a major conflict. Also, I consider Fire to be a melee set, while TA is a ranged set (yes, you can play TA in melee, but you lose one of the benefits of the set). Illusion is a much better primary for TA.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Originally Posted by opprime28
Ok, so Im making a character for a static team. It's a small team and currenty has a kin/electric defender, and earth/sonic controller, and a claws/dark armor scrapper.
I'm torn between which controller to make. I already have played a plant/kin and illusion/kin to 50, and a fire/rad to 40. I'm working very heavily on an ice/storm corruptor and am interested in a thugs/storm MM so I may avoid storm. I'm thinking about an illusion/bubbler. My thoughts are that with the +res from sonics and the +Def from bubbling, the scrapper could easily reach tanker levels of survivability, and the team would be pretty well protected from most damage. Earth's hard controls would compliment Illusion's distractions, making the team even more survivable. It seems would would lack damage in a lot of ways though. I was ALSO thinking abou a fire/trick arrow controller. Firewould give the team a much higher DPS, will still meshing with Earth's soft controls, and trick arrow would add -res to Earth/sonics -def and -res. It would basically help earth lock EVERYTHING down and debuff it so we're all doing more damage. Any suggestions? Anyone experienced with either of those builds? It's a toon made specifically to team with this group so soloing isn't much of an issue, which would be a concern for the illusion/bubbler. |
I think Illusion is a good match for Primary. You get PA to help with taking the alpha which will go a long way with helping the Scraps survivability. Illusion is good single target damage, which will help take down groups quicker. Your teammate with Earth already has solid hard controls, and will be able to set you up with an AoE immobilize later for extra damage, thereby negating one of the big negatives of Illusion. You have easy access to group invis if you want your team to stealth missions.
I personally like your idea of taking FF as the secondary. Local Man is correct in that it doesn't necessarily mesh well with Illusion, but it sure as heck helps your team dynamic. Your main tank is a scrapper, and for those groups where you don't want to wait for PA to recharge, it will definitely help the rate of XP gain.
My other suggestion for secondary would be Rad, in that it synergizes well with your primary and the debuffs (esp stacked with Kin debuffs) will make tough opponents a lot less dangerous. AM is nice and you would have access to a rez. (I also like NOT having to buff the group every 30 seconds).
If you're concerned about damage, make a fire/FF. I think FF would be good for your team because the scrapper would be a tank (especially w/ sonic shields too) and all your team would have over 30% def (dispersion, shields and maneuvers).
I say split the difference and go ill/ta. It's a great combo that actually has really good synergy. Plus the debuffs are a nice change from all the buffs you already have.
I would be concerned about bringing a /FF controller to a team that already has something defensively strong and offensively mediocre as an earth/sonic. I realize this wasn't part of your query, but under the circumstances, have you considered playing a blaster? ^_^
'Course I gather Illusion's fairly good with damage (not an Illusion player myself). Empathy and Thermal both do a little bit of ally damage and accuracy buffing (fort and forge), as I recall. Might be worth considering Illusion/Thermal or something.
Me, I'd go with Fire/TA. I have no idea if they've fixed the old reported bug with Fire Imps avoiding Oil Slick, but that just seems more the way to go. I don't really have a solid impression of what TA brings, and though I'm not sure it's terribly strong... that's just probably the way I'd go.
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That's exactly what I was going to say.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Illusion is a much better primary for TA.
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The bug still exists, only difference nowadays is that the Imps will return to the area effected more quickly now once the patch goes out. But it's still annoying when your pet runs off in a random direction, especially when there's 3 of the hyper lil fellas. I'd agree with Local, split the difference. PAs are unaffected by the patch I believe and Phantasm is ranged anyway so he shouldn't find himself in it. Illusion/TA would be a monster.|
Originally Posted by Enantiodromos
Me, I'd go with Fire/TA. I have no idea if they've fixed the old reported bug with Fire Imps avoiding Oil Slick, but that just seems more the way to go. I don't really have a solid impression of what TA brings, and though I'm not sure it's terribly strong... that's just probably the way I'd go.
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Illusion gives you the AV alpha absorbing move (PAs), the debuffs are excellent with Illusion (they'll help the PAs hit more and harder for a start) and you bring a totally different sort of control to the party via distraction, confusion and fear (as well as being able to stack single target holds really well). Plus both Illusion and TA tend to be ranged sets (other than Illusions skippable Flash) so you can stay out of trouble better and just lob pets and debuff arrows into the battle.
Illusion would work nicely with the scrapper's Cloak of Fear, if they have it. Earth and Fire would add stuns on to the scrapper's Oppressive Gloom, if they have that. Two Earth controllers would bring a devastating amount of control, and the Kin would be very happy about all that -def. However, if its more damage you want, Fire or maybe Plant.
You can't go wrong with /Rad as a secondary. Also, think about /Therm. It's got a little bit of everything- healz, shields, buffs and debuffs.
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I think you want more offense, not more defense.
That means Plant or Fire, and you seem to be leaning towards fire.
Secondary would be Rad, Storm, or TA. You seem to be less interested in Rad or Storm, so I'd go with TA.
Fire/TA and Plant/TA are both fine pairings, and will help add offense to the team. Fire will probably work better as it has the ability to alternate Stuns with the Earth controller, and both will stack with Oppressive Gloom to keep Bosses stunned.
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Actually, the Phantom Army DO run out of the Oil Slick area when lit, which is kind of stupid since they are invulnerable. But Oil Slick Pet Bug doesn't affect Illusion nearly as much as Fire, because Phantom Army and Phantasm can attack from range, while Fire Imps are melee only. In fact, Phantom Army is arguably more damaging from range.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax
The bug still exists, only difference nowadays is that the Imps will return to the area effected more quickly now once the patch goes out. But it's still annoying when your pet runs off in a random direction, especially when there's 3 of the hyper lil fellas. I'd agree with Local, split the difference. PAs are unaffected by the patch I believe and Phantasm is ranged anyway so he shouldn't find himself in it. Illusion/TA would be a monster.
Illusion gives you the AV alpha absorbing move (PAs), the debuffs are excellent with Illusion (they'll help the PAs hit more and harder for a start) and you bring a totally different sort of control to the party via distraction, confusion and fear (as well as being able to stack single target holds really well). Plus both Illusion and TA tend to be ranged sets (other than Illusions skippable Flash) so you can stay out of trouble better and just lob pets and debuff arrows into the battle. |
What you describe of the Illusion/TA playstyle is exactly how mine works. I skipped Flash because I virtually NEVER go into melee. EM Pulse Arrow is my AoE Hold. It is a great character to play, and you never have to worry about buffing anyone . . . Illusion is a bit more "set it and forget it" while Trick Arrow is somewhat clicky -- but you have time to slip in an attack or two.
The problem with Earth and Fire together is that Fire Controllers tend to use Fire Cages a lot . . . making Earthquake nearly useless. That holds try with any Controller set with an AoE Immobilize -- unless you coordinate when to use and not use AoE Immobilize, Earthquake (and Ice's Ice Slick) become nearly useless. For an Earth Controller, EArthquake is one of your three AoE controls.
Illusion doesn't step on another controller's toes because Illusion controls by distraction rather than AoE Immobilize, Sleeps or Stuns. Illusion provides good offense with its pets and single target blasting, plus you get the AoE Damage from Oil Slick Arrow. You get all the benefits of a Confuse power, plus (if you take Recall Friend) you can act as the team spy for the missions that can be stealthed.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I think Illusion/FF is a good choice. Despite /FF being one of the less awesome secondaries for Illusion, Illusion is one of the better primaries for FF. Also, while I think Illusion/Trick Arrow is nice, the Oil Slick will also screw with the pet of the Earth controller.
In fact, I think Illusion is a good choice for this team no matter what secondary you pick. I would personally skip TA, as I said, since you have another controller with a pet, and I'd skip /Kin because Ill+Kin can be awkward. I think any other Illusion combo would be sweet on this team.
Ill/Storm is going to give you debuffs, damage, and stealth, and some resists and a small heal. Plus optional chaos.
Ill/FF is going to stack nice defense and mez protection on the characters who will already be running around with sonic bubbles on them. Nice combo. Plus, its pretty.
Ill/Rad is going to give you buffs, debuffs, heals, controls, you name it. Good stuff for doing anything.
Ill/Sonic is going to let you double up on all the crazy resists and mez protection for the team. Plus you'll stack another layer of debuffs, and having 2 -resist toggles on the scrapper would be nice.
Illusion/Empathy is going to be super nice for having very robust healing and regen, not to mention some decent buffs.
Illusion/Thermal is going to have nice heals, debuffs, and party buffs in the form of resistance to stack with the Earth/Sonic guy's resistance stuff.
But I totally think Illusion is the way to go.
Plant would be good too, if you want to add some damage (aoe immob; confuse to make foes damage each other).
I agree with Local man that Fire Control may NOT be the best idea, since you'll have fire cages + EQ conflicts.
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Tut tut, Local, Fire Imps should be right at home and they run, too. That is what you get for being logical about it! |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Actually, the Phantom Army DO run out of the Oil Slick area when lit, which is kind of stupid since they are invulnerable.
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Of course, if you are doing AE missions exclusively like so many now do, problem solved. Your Oil Slick will NEVER LIGHT!
I don't know the hierarchy nor rhyme nor reason for fixing bugs, but I sure wish that instead of restoring "Intended" Knockback or slowing down the rate of fire of Lightning Storm that they could have solved the Oil Slick problems. *Heavy Sigh*
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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But Fire Imps can at least be hurt and killed . . . PA can't because they are just figments of the imagination. I suppose it is possible that creatures made of fire could be hurt by fire . . . |
Originally Posted by Melancton
Tut tut, Local, Fire Imps should be right at home and they run, too. That is what you get for being logical about it!
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But logic will only take you so far in this game. Like "Why do those morons keep walking the streets of the city when they get accosted every 20 feet?"
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Well, there you go.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
But Fire Imps can at least be hurt and killed . . . PA can't because they are just figments of the imagination. I suppose it is possible that creatures made of fire could be hurt by fire . . .
But logic will only take you so far in this game. Like "Why do those morons keep walking the streets of the city when they get accosted every 20 feet?" |
It was a literal Laugh Out Loud moment when running Tobias' arc in Striga and we rescued the first unfortunate victim (being roasted in the green flame prior to our arrival) who then proclaimed, "I am never walking through the Bog again!"
I mean, the Bog is only a swamp out in the middle of nowhere populated by zombies, vampires and werewolves, and accessible (unless you can fly) by crossing through other inhospitable areas ALSO chock-full of of the above as well as homicidal Council soldiers. I realize that this sounds like The Dream Of A Lifetime Place To Stroll, but actually, you are likely to be accosted and dispatched in horrible ways by the aforementioned Evil Beings.
But there seems to be no shortage of folks who just LOVE to take a constitutional through the Bog. To quote that Noted Philosopher, Strother Martin: "Morons! I have morons on my team!"
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Fire Imps run out because they hate the smell.
Phantom Army has to run out to maintain the illusion- otherwise your opponents would get a free Disbelieve check.
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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Urrgh. That's horrid. But as you say at least the PAs will stand at the edge and fire in while the imps stand at the edge hopping around and squeeling stupidly. Stupid Fire Munkies.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Actually, the Phantom Army DO run out of the Oil Slick area when lit, which is kind of stupid since they are invulnerable. But Oil Slick Pet Bug doesn't affect Illusion nearly as much as Fire, because Phantom Army and Phantasm can attack from range, while Fire Imps are melee only. In fact, Phantom Army is arguably more damaging from range.
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| Also, while I think Illusion/Trick Arrow is nice, the Oil Slick will also screw with the pet of the Earth controller. |
Stupid bug.
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But, at least Rocky has a ranged attack -- he can set up outside the area and chuck rocks. Those Minkies only have melee attacks, so they can do nothing but wait or find something else to aggro -- which is what they do best.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax
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Stupid bug. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
If you're not opposed to a healing set, Illusion / Thermal would actually be a great addition to this team.
- Phantom Army for extra damage or to make up for a lack of Tanker
- Option to skip Thaw, because Sonic Dispersion provides AoE status protection
- Melt Armor stacks with Sonic's -resistance and increases team damage while getting around the caps on Fulcrum Shift
- Shields stack with Sonic's for massive +resistance
- Excellent on-demand AoE or targeted heals
- Heat Exhaustion much mor able to hit thanks to Earth's massive -defense modifiers
- Forge for a huge damage boost to the Scrapper, who will loooove you
- Superior Invisibility all but eliminates the chances of the primary healer (you) getting ambushed
- Potentially adds a rezzer to the team
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Two powers out of nine defines a powerset as "melee based"?|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Fire/ta is an odd combo in that Fire is melee based
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Should we also define TA as an "invisibility set" because it has one perception debuff out of all of the other things it does?
Fire/TA is a fantastic combination, and it's not even incompatible with the Farm/Kin mindset that rumormongered about Fire being "melee based" until it became "common knowledge". You can use all of TA's powers in melee range, if you choose. They don't suddenly disappear from your tray or shut down if you get closer to critters.
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Well, really two and a half. I would include Fire Imps in that discussion, since they only have melee attacks. Yes, I would say that Fire is a melee based set unless the player chooses to steer away from Hot Feet, the main source of Aoe damage until Fire Imps. Cinders alone does not make it melee. But Hot Feet is a key power in the Fire set, and as a toggle requires the player to be in melee most of the time or you are just wasting endurance. And all the pets from other controller sets work from range, but not the imps.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
Two powers out of nine defines a powerset as "melee based"?
Should we also define TA as an "invisibility set" because it has one perception debuff out of all of the other things it does? Fire/TA is a fantastic combination, and it's not even incompatible with the Farm/Kin mindset that rumormongered about Fire being "melee based" until it became "common knowledge". You can use all of TA's powers in melee range, if you choose. They don't suddenly disappear from your tray or shut down if you get closer to critters. |
The number of powers doesn't matter nearly as much as the general playstyle of the set. An Ice Controller who focuses on Arctic Air is also, in my opinion, a melee controller, and only has two powers that are "melee." (What makes Ice kind of unique is that the player can choose instead to be a ranged controller by focusing on Shiver instead.) All the other control sets can easily be played from range. Sure, they can be played melee, but range gives a level of safety. Fire trades safety for higher damage.
A Fire/TA can choose to (a) forego the damage of Hot Feet to stay at range, where it is safer, but this weakens him as a damage dealer. (b) Play in melee, giving up the comparable safety of shooting arrows from range, or (c) use Hot Feet and spend time running in and out of melee.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Ok, so Im making a character for a static team. It's a small team and currenty has a kin/electric defender, and earth/sonic controller, and a claws/dark armor scrapper.
I'm torn between which controller to make. I already have played a plant/kin and illusion/kin to 50, and a fire/rad to 40. I'm working very heavily on an ice/storm corruptor and am interested in a thugs/storm MM so I may avoid storm.
I'm thinking about an illusion/bubbler. My thoughts are that with the +res from sonics and the +Def from bubbling, the scrapper could easily reach tanker levels of survivability, and the team would be pretty well protected from most damage. Earth's hard controls would compliment Illusion's distractions, making the team even more survivable. It seems would would lack damage in a lot of ways though.
I was ALSO thinking abou a fire/trick arrow controller. Firewould give the team a much higher DPS, will still meshing with Earth's soft controls, and trick arrow would add -res to Earth/sonics -def and -res. It would basically help earth lock EVERYTHING down and debuff it so we're all doing more damage.
Any suggestions? Anyone experienced with either of those builds? It's a toon made specifically to team with this group so soloing isn't much of an issue, which would be a concern for the illusion/bubbler.