Luv for Grav (Banal Self Interest Pt. 2)

Were I the uberdeveloper, here's what I would do with Gravity to make it relevant.

1. Dimension Shift: Take Aggro out of this power, add full invisibility for Mobs hit by it (so that they are untargetable!), and apply the cosmetic opaqueness as an autohit. Reduce base intang to mag 2 (remember this is enhanceable... or at least, it was once. Still is, right?), possibly reduce accuracy to .8 and increase radius to 30'.

2. Give Propel a shorter whatever-it-is (cast? activation?) time, much as was done with Jump Kick.

3. Set Lift equivalent to Levitate.


Grav goes from having the worst of the aggro-management (think sleeps, -Per) powers to having the best without stepping (much) outside the bounds of that functional category, and gets better at what the power choices would lead you to believe it should be good at (ST damage) early. Latebloomingness & general gimp of Grav alleviated without making it generic.

I posted my suggestions before, but teh forums ated them.

So in the spirit of sharing, here is a repost of my Grav analysis and suggested changes.




A Proposal to Improve Gravity Control

One of the hot topics in the Controller and Dominator forums has always been Gravity Control. Most agree that Gravity is not performing as well as it should (relative to the other Control sets), however, there is a small but vocal minority that believes Gravity is fine.


I have played a Gravity/Radiation Controller up to the mid 40s and a Gravity/Energy Dominator up to 20 or so and I have come to the conclusion that Gravity does need some help. Because most of my experience is with Controllers I'm going to spend most of my time with that aspect of the set. I will deal with Doms but with less confidence.


To me, it seems apparent that Gravity was intended to be a light control/heavy damage set. It has only two regularly useful lockdown tools but two extra attacks. If this is true (and until Castle tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume it is) then it suggests a useful comparison to Fire Control (Fire also trades some control for extra damage).


So how does Gravity compare to Fire control? Both are elemental sets, meaning they have single target and AoE Immobilizes and Holds. Both have a Stun power. Both have some positioning ability (Bonfire and Wormhole). Both have a highly situational power that lets them avoid or postpone a fight (Smoke and Dimension Shift). Both have pets, though there aren't any similarities between Fire Pimps and the Singularity. Most importantly, though, both sets trade off a possible 4th control power for more damage. Fire gets Hot Feet and Bonfire while Gravity gets Propel and Lift.


Unfortunately, the performance of the set just doesn't match the intent.


With four single target attacks by level 6, Gravity starts off as a very strong soloer. It can set up containment effectively and despite a commonly resisted damage type, it can tear through the low levels fairly effectively. Once you hit the teens and start teaming up, the problems begin. The long DoTs in Crush and Gravity Distortion mean that most targets are dead before the full damage is applied. Propel is even worse on a team, since many targets will be dead before the power is even done animating! Combined with a low damage pet, Gravity will contribute less damage to a team than even an Earth or Ice controller.

Gravity also suffers from a lack of dependable early level control, unlike every other set. Lift provides some very effective single target control early on, but that isn't enough to put it on par with the other sets. Dimension Shift is another problem here. Dim Shift would be much more useful if the user had more control over how long it lasts. Suggestions to turn it into a toggle have been shot down because of mechanical problems, so another solution is needed. Even the star of the set, Wormhole, has issues. The long animation time and high tier placement mean that when it arrives it is too little, too late. The Singularity helps some, but with it's unreliable targeting it is also too little, too late.


So what should be done? I believe that Gravity should become a light control/high damage set on par with Fire Control. It's already half way there, it just needs a little push.


Recommendations:
I've kept my suggestions simple and I've organized them into phases, with each phase containing progressively more extreme (and thus, less likely) changes. Not all of the changes are necessary, and many in Phase 2 and 3 are either/or choices. For example, either Propel or Lift should become an AoE but not both. If Castle decides it should be Lift, no other changes to Propel would be needed (except the animation time changes)


Phase I

• Reduce Crush and Crushing Field's animation times to ~1s
• Reduce Gravity Distortions animation time to ~1.1s
• Reduce Propel's animation time to ~2s (Shorten the 'summoning object' portion)
• Reduce Wormhole's animation time to ~2s, have the Stun kick in ~1.7s from the start of the animation. (Shorten the beginning 'hands raised' portion)
• Increase Wormhole's Radius from 15ft to 25ft. If necessary reduce Wormhole's Stun duration from from scale 10 to scale 8. (this brings it in line with Flashfire and Stalagmites)
• Reduce Dimension Shift's recharge to 10s, reduce it's duration to 10s, reduce it's radius to 15ft, put it on a static timer (like Strength of Will and One With The Shield)
• Add 25% Phase resistance for 40s after a 10.5s delay to Dimension Shift. This resistance should stack.
• Alter the hit FX for Dimension Shift to clearly identify which entities have been effected.

• Double Crushing Field's damage to 3 ticks of 6.12 Smashing Damage
• Reduce Crushing Field's End Cost to 13
  and either
• Change Propel into a 20 degree cone and reduce the range/radius to 40ft (For Controllers)
• Change Propel into a 20 degree cone (For Dominators)
• Give Propel a 30% chance of a 6s mag2 Stun (For Controllers)
• -Give Propel a 6s mag2 Stun (For Dominators)
  or
• Change Lift into a 20ft radius AoE, double recharge and endurance cost

• Reorder the set thusly:
  T1: Crush (1)
  T2: Gravity Distortion (1)
  T3: Crushing Field (2)
  T4: Lift (6)
  T5: Propel (8)
  T6: Wormhole (12)
  T7: Gravity Distortion (18)
  T8: Dimension Shift (26)
  T9: Singularity (32)

       Cast    C-Dam    C-DPA    D-Dam    D-DPA    Rech    End    Duration
Old Crush:    1.33s    30.6    23.00    36.1    27.14    4s    7.8    27.9
New Crush:    1s    30.6    30.6    36.1    36.1    4s    7.8    27.9
Old GD:        1.83s    33.6    18.36    39.8    21.75    8s    8.53    22.4
New GD:        1.1s    33.6    30.55    39.8    36.18    8s    8.53    22.4
Old C-Field:    1.33s    9.18    6.9    10.8    8.12    8s    15.6    27.9
New C-Field:    1s    18.36    18.36    21.6    21.6    8s    15.6    27.9
Old Lift:        1.03s    24.5    23.79    28.9    28.06    6s    6.86    -
New Lift (AoE):    1.03s    24.5    23.79    28.9    28.06    12s    13.72    -
Old Propel:    3.5s    59.9    17.11    70.8    20.23    8s    9.36    -
New Propel:    2s    59.9    29.95    70.8    35.4    16s    18.72    6s
Wormhole:    2.00s    -    -    -    -    90s    15.6    18.6
GDF:        1.83s    -    -    -    -    240s    15.6    14.9
Dimension Shift:    1.17s    -    -    -    -    10s    13    10
Singularity:    2.03s    -    -    -    -    240s    20.8    -

I'll have to read that in more detail, esp. phase II and III, but just as an initial comment, I think I agree with phase I, except that I (again) see doing something different with Dim Shift.

I think it's important to recognize the power fulfills roughly the same function as sleeps, smoke, and group invis-- these powers are good for preventing aggro from happening (for a period of time), but can't really be used for mitigation at ground zero of a fight.

It's that intent I assume goes into DS, and my thoughts on revamping it start with 1) trying to conform to that role, but also 2) recognizing grav needs some help, not only rescue it from playing that role especially poorly, but let it play that role especially well.

Weatherby I think your suggestions have some merit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby_Goode To me, it seems apparent that Gravity was intended to be a light control/heavy damage set. It has only two regularly useful lockdown tools but two extra attacks. If this is true (and until Castle tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume it is) then it suggests a useful comparison to Fire Control (Fire also trades some control for extra damage).

I think you are right here in that Gravity is meant to be more damage and less control. Although comparing it with Fire is a battle which cannot be won, good for comparison though.

Personally I would like to compare it to Mind/, both Gravity and Mind have many single target attacks and if Gravity had an attack chain like Mind's, then things would be much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby_Goode The long DoTs in Crush and Gravity Distortion mean that most targets are dead before the full damage is applied. Propel is even worse on a team, since many targets will be dead before the power is even done animating! Combined with a low damage pet, Gravity will contribute less damage to a team than even an Earth or Ice controller.

I think this is an excellent point and also something I would agree with.

Again comparing Crush and Gravity Distortion to Mind's Mesmerize and Dominate, while the damage is equal, Mind does its damage initially in one quick shot where as Gravity does its damage over time. In the case of Crush, I discovered it does its damage over 9 seconds.

To further compound this, Lift does far less damage then levitate. It has a slightly shorter recharge and activation, but this does little to compensate. It needs to do equal damage to levitate really.

Propel has always had this problem with activation time as well. Otherwise it is a very decent attack but due to the long cast time, I found it actually can leave you very vulnerable even when solo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby_Goode Even the star of the set, Wormhole, has issues. The long animation time and high tier placement mean that when it arrives it is too little, too late. The Singularity helps some, but with it's unreliable targeting it is also too little, too late.

Singy does help but as you said, it attacks random enemies. Its like having someone trying to cover you with a gun but being blindfolded - they might get a lucky hit but most of the shots will hit something you couldn't care less about.

For me the big problem with Wormhole is the way using it is like simulating the feeling of being caught off guard. The animation is so long, it scatters and worst of all, the mobs retaliate before the disorient is applied. A truly said state of affairs.

All your suggestions are logical. The problem with Gravity is almost every power could use some tinkering with to make the set work. At the moment it somehow pulls itself together but really it could use a complete overhaul. Every power in the set changed.

Here is my list of reccomendations:

Crush: Remove the DoT and make the damage direct. As if it was one big initial crush rather then crushing them over time.

Lift: Increase the damage to match Levitate.

Gravity Distortion: Remove the DoT and make te damage direct. Consider changing the damage type to Energy.

Propel: Lower the activation time, as Weatherby suggested, remove the bit where the object is summoned. 2.0s is a long activation time, let alone 3.5s. With the damage it does, 2.0 would be bearable.

Crushing Field: No change.

Dimension Shift: Enant's suggestion of it being no aggro has some merit I think.

I think the best change short of completely removing it would be to turn it into an AoE Sleep. This would give Gravity some much needed exta AoE control. Think Salt Crystals and Flash Freeze for thematics.

Your mastery of gravity allows you to manipulate dimensions, bringing multiple foes out of sync with reality. Any harmful attack will cause these foes to return to normal space.

Gravity Distortion Field: No change

Wormhole:

- Lower the activation time by a lot. My suggestion would be to remove the animation where you raise your hands in the air, and just have the "push" part. Like a *snap* and the enemy is ported.

- Increase the radius to 25

- Change the Knockback to Knockdown - seriously! Gravity is the only Control Set which scatters mobs when it attempts to disorient them.

Singularity: No change, although adding Propel to its list of attacks would be fun - if its activation is lowered.


These changes would make Gravity so much better and more fun, and it wouldn't be overpowered which is the temptation when overhauling a set.

Only because I dislike the idea and mechanics of dimension shift, I'd like to see lift become an aoe knockup

Brilliant ideas here guys! I myself have always loved the idea of controlling gravity...it just sounds fun but as you have all said, the set is seriously lacking compared to every other controller primary. I don't actually have any other ideas to add because I think you've covered pretty much every problem with it. I just want to urge the developers to do SOMETHING to gravity! I really like the AoE Lift idea, never thought of that...now that would be awesome fun!

As we all know, Lift knocks the target up and then deals damage when it lands. The problem is, even when the target has a -KB effect on it (from Gravity Distortion or whatever), you still get the same delay before Lift's damage is dealt. It may not be possible, but one small change I'd like to see is for Lift's damage to be applied immediately if the target is held in place.

It is worth noting that not only is an AoE lift power or a "Reverse Gravity Field" (Think opposite of Ice Slick) a really really cool ability but,

as Crushing Field does not grant Knockback protection, it can be used with the AoE immobalize!

This is one of the reasons it is such a good idea and would slot easily into Gravity at 12.

ohhh, I like the reverse grav field with a duration instead of a one time lift idea even better

I've always thought it would be cool to replace DS with a targeted AoE that pulled everything within X' of the target back towards it.

The mechanic is somewhat already in existence with TK - how many more Grav's do you think you'd see if they had the ability to both scatter (WH) and gather mobs?

Maybe it's cause I'm exhausted by I had a WONDERFUL Idea...well...Wonderful in my own mind.

Change dimension shift to a 2 second duration. In that time, dimension shift applies a random status effect, be it stun, immobilize, hold, sleep, knockdown, etc, to all the enemies trapped in the dimension shift. Mag 3 for those abilities.

Dimension Shift: You shift the dimension around them so quickly, it is unclear what will happen when they return back.

Or maybe because you warped the dimension around them so fast, no one really knows what effect it will have on enemies.

I think that'd be a fun power. And I don't think it would be out of balance since, even though it can hit the targets with any status effect, doesn't mean it will be one you want, and I'd make it so the powers can't stack. So you wouldn't run into an enemy that was stun and held (which would make no sense).

I dunno, lack of sleep at the current moment made me propose this idea. Might be REEEALLY regretting it once I log on tomorrow.

There's been countless suggestions over time in loads of threads.

My favourites would be:

Lift: Damage increase to Levitate levels.
Propel: Decrease cast time to around 2.5 secs, increase recharge to 12.
Dimension Shift: Remake into a reverse gravity field similar to Ice Slick, but with knockup. Should also affects flyers unlike Ice Slik or Earthquake.
Wormhole: Increase radius to 20. Turn into knockdown. Make it the tier 6 power.
Singularity: Gain Propel as power.

By the way, when did Gravity's holds and immobalizes have their visual effects reversed? I noticed it a few months back and it has been bugging me ever since. Was there a specific reason given?

I haven't noticed the effects being reversed. What are you seeing?