So, what you are recommending is we add 33 Attributes which have an Area effect which checks each server tick per defender? I can tell you now that that *would* have a significant impact on server performance. 
It's nice, but it does not solve the teaming issue, it actually encourages it even more and also seems to be increasing the need/want to team with even more of your own AT.
Mind if I propose something as well?
I would suggest the Defender be given an inherit that boosts the Defender's Debuffs/Buffs when the team is in danger, and when the team is doing fine to give the Defender a good damage buff (about 50% if the team is doing fine).
Now let me explain it intelligently that also works conceptually for the AT. "Vigilance allows the Defender, when his/her allies are in ciritcal condition, to search within himself/herself for the strength to overcome the odds often resulting in more powerful buffs or debuffs, and when his/her allies are at full fighting strength the Defender has an empowering feeling of accomplishment giving more power to his/her attacks"
Basically if the team is gettin' hammered you get a sort of Power Boost effect to your buffs/debuffs, and when the team is doing fine you get a damage buff. Solo the scaling factor of buff/debuff to damage buff ratio would reflect on the Defender's own status.
Just a thought.
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Ah, for a second there, I thought "Where did 33 come from?" But then I remembered 10 Defense types, 7 Resistance types, 7 Damage types, 4 mez types, and then ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Res(Slow, and Recharge. >.>|
Originally Posted by Castle
So, what you are recommending is we add 33 Attributes which have an Area effect which checks each server tick per defender? I can tell you now that that *would* have a significant impact on server performance.
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Hmm...
I still like my idea (but I guess few people dislike their own ideas), but I see how that could be a problem.
Perhaps if instead of all Defense types, it added Base Defense? Maybe 0.625% instead of 1.25%, since Base Defense can be really good. And maybe remove the +Resistance, +Damage, Res(Slow), and Recharge.
That would bring the number of attributes to check down to 8? Would that be better?
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+0.625% Base Defense +1.25% ToHit +2.5% Regeneration +2.5% Recovery -0.5 Mag(Hold, Stun, Sleep, Immob) |
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I don't see that happening. Castle has stated in the past that +Special effects are a pain for balancing.
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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
I would suggest the Defender be given an inherit that boosts the Defender's Debuffs/Buffs when the team is in danger, and when the team is doing fine to give the Defender a good damage buff (about 50% if the team is doing fine).
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You could just skip the check, and have it apply to everyone on the defender's team. We're everywhere, you know. |
Originally Posted by Castle
So, what you are recommending is we add 33 Attributes which have an Area effect which checks each server tick per defender? I can tell you now that that *would* have a significant impact on server performance.
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The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
I think it's overly complicated, Trickshooter. How about an old Defiance/Vigilance hybrid? If a Defender and/or teammate is low on health, the Defender get a scaling Power Boost (or even Power Build Up) kind of effect as he strains himself to protect his team better. This would be more noticable in teams and give Defenders a much needed boost in soloing ability.
EDIT: To avoid exploitation, a defeated teammember should not grant this boost as he or she is out of the fight and no longer in need of protection.
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I, personally, would abuse the jebus out of this by dual-boxing with a corpse.|
Originally Posted by Seraphael
I think it's overly complicated, Trickshooter. How about an old Defiance/Vigilance hybrid? If a Defender and/or teammate is low on health, the Defender get a scaling Power Boost (or even Power Build Up) kind of effect as he strains himself to protect his team better. This would be more noticable in teams and give Defenders a much needed boost in soloing ability.
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But, come to think of it, I did the same thing with Vigilance 1.0 while levelling my 4D. It's amazing what a defender can do with piles of dead bodies.
But I digress.
It's a goofy mechanic to have a defender's performance increase by letting one's teammates die.
On the other hand, it's interesting to see that Castle has shown up in a Vigilance thread. Just from what I've seen ... but he often shows up in a buff X thread, hides for a while, and then says, "I'm looking at ..." Which I think means that Vigilance is a teeny, tiny blip on his radar.
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I was about to edit my initial post and will after this reply.|
Originally Posted by BurningChick
I, personally, would abuse the jebus out of this by dual-boxing with a corpse.
But, come to think of it, I did the same thing with Vigilance 1.0 while levelling my 4D. It's amazing what a defender can do with piles of dead bodies. But I digress. It's a goofy mechanic to have a defender's performance increase by letting one's teammates die. On the other hand, it's interesting to see that Castle has shown up in a Vigilance thread. Just from what I've seen ... but he often shows up in a buff X thread, hides for a while, and then says, "I'm looking at ..." Which I think means that Vigilance is a teeny, tiny blip on his radar. |
To avoid exploitation, the buff would cease seconds after a teammate is defeated. The reason being, the teammate is already down and he doesn't need protecting anymore.
I guess it's not set in stone till he just shows up and says it, but again, I'm pretty sure Castle wouldn't give Defenders a +Special inherent power.
I've suggested this before and I still think it would be an improvement over the current Vigilance.
I don't have a problem with the -endurance buff. I think it's completely appropriate for a Defender. The Defender running out of end usually spells doom, especially if they're a healer.
But instead of basing the buff on the aggregate health of the team, base it upon the number of foes nearby. The more foes you're fighting, the greater the discount. It could be setup just like Invincibility (but with a much wider range, say 25'?); gives a greater buff for the 1st foe and smaller buffs for subsequent foes up to a cap.
Doing it this way makes it fair across all Defender powersets, whereas current Vigilance is very biased and encourages poor defending. And it also would give the solo Defender a decent buff, whereas the current Vigilance gives squat. It also would be a much more consistent buff, as spawn sizes are relatively constant, based upon the team size and mission difficulty. The current Vigilance buff can vary widely from mission to mission, based upon team composition and critters fought. This makes it very difficult to rely upon it, further reducing its effectiveness.
Just my 2 cents.
Trickshooter, gotta give you props for giving the best argument ever for current vigilance not being good. I think your vigilance suggestion delivers on a few things that an ideal inherent should have, but misses out on others.
pro: The inherent is a reflection of the AT. The scrapper and blaster inherents are clearly for attacking, and the tanker inherent is clearly for getting aggro for teammates.
con: 30 feet? That's pretty short. I also feel the numbers are too small to have any sort of impact on gameplay except for the ones for resistance.
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I like this idea, though I'd rather see a much longer (60-70ft or so?) range on it so you can get more of a benefit from big open rooms full of Angry.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Fabulous
I've suggested this before and I still think it would be an improvement over the current Vigilance.
I don't have a problem with the -endurance buff. I think it's completely appropriate for a Defender. The Defender running out of end usually spells doom, especially if they're a healer. But instead of basing the buff on the aggregate health of the team, base it upon the number of foes nearby. The more foes you're fighting, the greater the discount. It could be setup just like Invincibility (but with a much wider range, say 25'?); gives a greater buff for the 1st foe and smaller buffs for subsequent foes up to a cap. Doing it this way makes it fair across all Defender powersets, whereas current Vigilance is very biased and encourages poor defending. And it also would give the solo Defender a decent buff, whereas the current Vigilance gives squat. It also would be a much more consistent buff, as spawn sizes are relatively constant, based upon the team size and mission difficulty. The current Vigilance buff can vary widely from mission to mission, based upon team composition and critters fought. This makes it very difficult to rely upon it, further reducing its effectiveness. Just my 2 cents. |
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Originally Posted by Captain_Fabulous
I've suggested this before and I still think it would be an improvement over the current Vigilance.
I don't have a problem with the -endurance buff. I think it's completely appropriate for a Defender. The Defender running out of end usually spells doom, especially if they're a healer. But instead of basing the buff on the aggregate health of the team, base it upon the number of foes nearby. The more foes you're fighting, the greater the discount. It could be setup just like Invincibility (but with a much wider range, say 25'?); gives a greater buff for the 1st foe and smaller buffs for subsequent foes up to a cap. Doing it this way makes it fair across all Defender powersets, whereas current Vigilance is very biased and encourages poor defending. And it also would give the solo Defender a decent buff, whereas the current Vigilance gives squat. It also would be a much more consistent buff, as spawn sizes are relatively constant, based upon the team size and mission difficulty. The current Vigilance buff can vary widely from mission to mission, based upon team composition and critters fought. This makes it very difficult to rely upon it, further reducing its effectiveness. Just my 2 cents. |
I think this is a very simple improvement that will definitely please a lot without annoying those who enjoy the current Vigilance.
Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor
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Owtch! Shot down (no pun intended) right out of the box by the guy with the big gun known as the "I win button" (in more than one sense)
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Originally Posted by Castle
So, what you are recommending is we add 33 Attributes which have an Area effect which checks each server tick per defender? I can tell you now that that *would* have a significant impact on server performance.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Too much overthinking and overdoing it trickshooter and it still ends up really boring.
Rather see something far more interactive like a fury-type bar or a click inherent. Also something that doesn't blatantly encourage stacking defenders when they are already strong stacked. All the support ATs should function on-par with one another and still play differently, not have one be extremely superior in teams as your suggestion would make defenders.
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Anything less than 60' would be all but useless unless the defender skipped or forwent usage of key powers (cones, KB, Force Bubble, etc.). Anything greater than melee range could very easily be exploited. In either case, it's not a solution which is palatable from the developers' viewpoint.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Fabulous
The more foes you're fighting, the greater the discount. It could be setup just like Invincibility (but with a much wider range, say 25'?)
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Man, twice in two weeks. You know this isn't the scrapper forum right? |
Originally Posted by Castle
So, what you are recommending is we add 33 Attributes which have an Area effect which checks each server tick per defender? I can tell you now that that *would* have a significant impact on server performance.
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But would this be that different than MM's Supremacy? The pets gain advantages as long as they are within '60. Yes, I know Supremecy only handles damage and tohit, but it's the same concept. MM's add 25% damage and 10% tohit. Add in 6 default pets and that's gonna add up with multiple MMs.
It could be set similar to what Khelds are given bonuses for what ATs they are teamed with. I would think a you just need to check the number of defenders on a team when one joins a team and set the values needed for the team. Only change the values when somebody leaves. This would eliminate the need for constant checking of the within range aspect.
FYI, if a dev is starting to post in your forum, something is in the works.
<--- stirring the pot.
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Making it work more like invincibility where you get an end cost reduction buff per enemy within a certain range... is a very cool idea. I like that it does have a solo use as well as a obvious team use.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Fabulous
I've suggested this before and I still think it would be an improvement over the current Vigilance.
I don't have a problem with the -endurance buff. I think it's completely appropriate for a Defender. The Defender running out of end usually spells doom, especially if they're a healer. But instead of basing the buff on the aggregate health of the team, base it upon the number of foes nearby. The more foes you're fighting, the greater the discount. It could be setup just like Invincibility (but with a much wider range, say 25'?); gives a greater buff for the 1st foe and smaller buffs for subsequent foes up to a cap. Doing it this way makes it fair across all Defender powersets, whereas current Vigilance is very biased and encourages poor defending. And it also would give the solo Defender a decent buff, whereas the current Vigilance gives squat. It also would be a much more consistent buff, as spawn sizes are relatively constant, based upon the team size and mission difficulty. The current Vigilance buff can vary widely from mission to mission, based upon team composition and critters fought. This makes it very difficult to rely upon it, further reducing its effectiveness. Just my 2 cents. |
Make it work like that, and you can cap the number of targets it can be buffed by so it limits any possible abuse. If people want a secondary trait that helps in combat... then on top of the end cost reduction that goes up per enemy in range... it also as a +tohit buff per enemy in range so it makes you more accurate. You don't pump out more damage, but you consistently pump out more hits in a situation where it may be needed most.
In cases where your ability to heal depends on a to-hit check... that can really be a life saver as well!
x Jeremy M.
Global Handle: @JeremyM
City of Heroes LiveJournal Community
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I'm not sure exactly how you would exploit something that only affects yourself and is capped? You can't stack it. You can't somehow put extra foes around you that don't attack. I'm not sure what you mean.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
Anything less than 60' would be all but useless unless the defender skipped or forwent usage of key powers (cones, KB, Force Bubble, etc.). Anything greater than melee range could very easily be exploited. In either case, it's not a solution which is palatable from the developers' viewpoint.
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And the range is debatable. Maybe 40' would be better. This would put them within the range of short-range attacks and cones. I kinda like the idea of the Defender having to maneuver a bit to get the most from the buff. Gives a little extra risk/reward. Wanna get the maximum, you gotta move in closer to the action. Wanna play it safe at a distance, well it's less threat to you, and therefore less buff.
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I'd rather see a power which works like Domination and applies a Break Free and/or instantly recharges all powers. Instead of tying it exclusively to attacking or buffing or debuffing, make each click attack, click buff and click debuff add a specific percentage to the power until it "pops", at which time it can be clicked. Additionally, scale the percentage according to team size. 1, the solo defender, would have the lowest scale, so the power would charge at the lowest rate. A full team of 8 would have the highest scale and charge up the power at the fastest rate, permitting the defender to use it sooner (because it is in teams when a defender is most likely to need such a thing sooner). This way it couldn't be significantly exploited by someone dual-boxing or spamming shields on pets, but it also wouldn't penalize the defender for not doing so.|
Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
It's nice, but it does not solve the teaming issue, it actually encourages it even more and also seems to be increasing the need/want to team with even more of your own AT.
Mind if I propose something as well? I would suggest the Defender be given an inherit that boosts the Defender's Debuffs/Buffs when the team is in danger, and when the team is doing fine to give the Defender a good damage buff (about 50% if the team is doing fine). Now let me explain it intelligently that also works conceptually for the AT. "Vigilance allows the Defender, when his/her allies are in ciritcal condition, to search within himself/herself for the strength to overcome the odds often resulting in more powerful buffs or debuffs, and when his/her allies are at full fighting strength the Defender has an empowering feeling of accomplishment giving more power to his/her attacks" Basically if the team is gettin' hammered you get a sort of Power Boost effect to your buffs/debuffs, and when the team is doing fine you get a damage buff. Solo the scaling factor of buff/debuff to damage buff ratio would reflect on the Defender's own status. Just a thought. |
It works solo, it offers something useful for all defenders regardless of primary/secondary/play style, it takes a huge step toward resolving some of the most serious problems defenders face in regard to "defending a team" (typically, being mezzed while the team is falling, or not having access to a power which could turn the tides because it was recharging) and it encourages defenders to use all of their powers, rather than simply turn on a toggle or putting a power on auto and going AFK with follow on the tank/leader.
And it doesn't require 33 attrib checks per defender per server tick, or reliance on team HP.
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Has to be more than just an end discount. Again, as I posted in another thread an endless supply of gas is only so good if you have a vehicle to do something with it and IMO, the end discount was too high anyway.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Fabulous
I've suggested this before and I still think it would be an improvement over the current Vigilance.
I don't have a problem with the -endurance buff. I think it's completely appropriate for a Defender. The Defender running out of end usually spells doom, especially if they're a healer. But instead of basing the buff on the aggregate health of the team, base it upon the number of foes nearby. The more foes you're fighting, the greater the discount. It could be setup just like Invincibility (but with a much wider range, say 25'?); gives a greater buff for the 1st foe and smaller buffs for subsequent foes up to a cap. Doing it this way makes it fair across all Defender powersets, whereas current Vigilance is very biased and encourages poor defending. And it also would give the solo Defender a decent buff, whereas the current Vigilance gives squat. It also would be a much more consistent buff, as spawn sizes are relatively constant, based upon the team size and mission difficulty. The current Vigilance buff can vary widely from mission to mission, based upon team composition and critters fought. This makes it very difficult to rely upon it, further reducing its effectiveness. Just my 2 cents. |
+end recovery, +recharge, and + mezz protection all scailing based on mob size, think Fury like. They can all be low numbers. It keeps the end discount, but on a more realistic level. Adds recharge for increase in damage without getting broken. Added mezz protection because no team wants to be facing the masses and have a defender type, "zzz." CP from Elec was removed due the overkill it gave in end management and broken into three smaller, but still credible pieces.
How about a click power that does a defender style of "Vengeance" but doesn't require a dead teammate. If a handicap(s) must be included, here are some possibilities:
- Long "ignores buffs" recharge
- requires below certain team total health (like between 25-50% and below)
- eats a huge chunk of endurance and -recovery
- has a domination style buildup bar with blasts
- makes the defender vulnerable for duration(-DEF and -RES debuff)
- weakens defender for duration (-Tohit and -DMG debuff)
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You can't? I can Stun and Immobilize at least 32 minions, thus permitting me to keep them close to me without being attacked.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Fabulous
I'm not sure exactly how you would exploit something that only affects yourself and is capped? You can't stack it. You can't somehow put extra foes around you that don't attack. I'm not sure what you mean.
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I can lead as many enemies as I can herd into an OSA + Glue patch, which would permit me to skirt the fringe of the powers' AoEs safely.
I can simply fire Flash Arrow at a spawn and just stand close to them, and they'll never see me, therefore also never attack me while I'm attacking a completely separate spawn.
I could find at least a dozen ways to exploit a PBAoE endurance discount aura power, and that's just with my TA/Dark. I have at least ten other defenders, I could come up with more ways to exploit it for each of them.
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| And the range is debatable. Maybe 40' would be better. |
Additionally, it would be counter intuitive when taking the ranges of many powers into consideration. Players look at powers, see that they have 60' or 80' ranges and try to play them at those ranges. Having an inherent which would essentially "not work" because the player was doing what he/she thought was the proper thing, playing at the appropriate ranges for their powers, would lead to a great deal of confusion and more than likely, a lot more complaints than the current Vigilance has caused.
Anything less than 60' would be unacceptable, and anything greater than melee range would be exploitable.
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If the buffs are balanced so the defender neither benefits nor suffers, then the net effect is a loss due to the endurance cost and -recovery.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
How about a click power that does a defender style of "Vengeance" but doesn't require a dead teammate. If a handicap(s) must be included, here are some possibilities:
- Long "ignores buffs" recharge - requires below certain team total health (like between 25-50% and below) - eats a huge chunk of endurance and -recovery - has a domination style buildup bar with blasts - makes the defender vulnerable for duration(-DEF and -RES debuff) - weakens defender for duration (-Tohit and -DMG debuff) |
If the buffs are larger than the debuffs, then the net effect is an improvement, but it would either be a minute improvement for everyone, or an enormous improvement for teammates and minute improvement for the defender.
So the buffs would have to be very small, and the debuffs even smaller, in order to make it both useful and balanced, and at that point, it wouldn't be any different in final effect than Trick's suggestion, except that it wouldn't put a huge load on the servers.
Frankly, I wouldn't bother with a click buff power with a long, unenhanceable recharge and buffs which totaled up to 1-3% after accounting for the debuffs. It just wouldn't be enough to make any difference and it probably wouldn't even "pay for itself". We can easily acquire accolades which are much more powerful, have enhanceable recharges and don't penalize us right back into the Neolithic period.
Okay, so it's not like there aren't hundreds of suggestions to revamp Vigilance, but I figure I should attempt my own in the hopes that maybe Castle, Sunstorm, or Synapse (or maybe even Positron *crosses fingers*) likes it.
So, what is most wrong with the current form of Vigilance?
It's boring!
That's right, completely dull. And something quite as ho hum as current Vigilance has no place in this MMO. While I can definitely see when it's there and working, it's just so uninteresting and so uninspiring that I can't bring myself to be even a little bit excited about the fact that my powers are now costing significantly less endurance to use. And I certainly can never tell whether using less endurance would have made as much of a difference as some of the other inherent powers do.
I'm not even sure what it has to do with Defenders at all. Kheldians and Tankers have pretty 'meh' inherents as well, but you can at least see that they relate to those ATs and their roles on a team (Tankers hold aggro, Kheldians buff themselves to either fill missing roles on the team or enhance the ones that are already there) . The only part of Vigilance that relates to Defenders is that it requires a team (not that Defenders require a team, but making teams awesome is what they do best).
But enough ranting, on to my idea.
I propose that Vigilance be replaced by an auto omni-buff aura!
You guys: "What does that even mean?"
I'll explain:
Teammates within 30 feet of the Defender, and including the Defender themselves, will receive a small buff to multiple aspects. These buffs would provide a small, but very nice benefit, and be able to stack, encouraging teams to include multiple Defenders in the team line-up. This would also, possibly, help to deal with the increasing fear that Going Rogue will make Defenders less desired on teams when Corruptors are available blueside.
You guys: "Get to the values!"
I'm no Dev, so I can't say whether these are 'omg too good' or 'meh *yawn*' values, but I think they sit well outside of the ranges of underpowered and overpowered.
+1.25%ToHit
+1.25% Recharge
+2.5% Resistance(All)
+2.5% Damage(All)
+2.5% Regeneration
+2.5% Recovery
+2.5% Resist(Slow)
-0.5 Mag Mez Protection
+10% ToHit
+10% Recharge
+20% Resistance(All)
+20% Damage(All)
+20% Regeneration
+20% Recovery
+20% Resist(Slow)
-4 Mag Mez Protection
So what does this solve?
1) It removes the "team-only" aspect of Vigilance while still leaving it a good power for teaming.
2) It encourages teams to not only consider a Defender over a Controller or Corruptor, but to also invite multiple Defenders if possible.
3) It benefits ALL Defender Primary powersets. Remember, debuffs 'stack' with buffs of the opposite nature, ie. ToHit Debuffs and Defense Buffs.
4) It offers Defenders some form of Mez protection (which fits the name Vigilance better)
5) It doesn't completely throw out the old Vigilance's attempt to keep Defenders from running out of endurance by adding some +Recovery.
6) It potentially solves the issue created when you have multiple Defenders of the same type. Sure, a single Forcefielder will get your team to the soft-cap, but adding a second Forcefielder will give your team a bunch of nice buffs and an extra point of mez protection!
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
P.S. If this idea has already been suggested, then whoops!