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Wasn't very hard to get better than the first analogy, is it was completely awful. As for the second, I feel that there should be a way to suspend your phone account without losing the number, too. So, you may think it's fine to be forced to waste money on something you can't use, but most other people have a problem with being screwed over by unethical companies...
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Roswell
When I deployed, I was expected to keep paying rent for a house I couldn't access. If I hadn't, they would have let someone else -- someone who did pay -- have it.
Actually, a better analogy? When I deployed, I was expected to keep paying for a telephone service I couldn't use, or risk having to get a new phone number when I got back. |
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Well, I admit the second was better than the first, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that pointing out that there are a lot of situations in which stopping a month-to-month payment on something means losing your claim to it "completely awful." Unless you'd care to elaborate.
And I'm not sure how a company favoring paying customers over non-paying potential customers is "unethical" or how anyone is being "screwed over." It's simple: you pay the fee to keep the account active. That goes for CoH, phones, cable TV, whatever. The provider doesn't care whether you're using it or not (nor should they); they care whether you're paying for it. As long as you keep paying, the account stays active and you gain the benefits, whatever they may be. If you decide not to pay, you lose those benefits, and the provider is under zero obligation to you (beyond a reasonable grace period), because you're no longer a customer. You're a former customer. Sure, they'd love for you to start paying them again, but until you do, their only actual responsibility is to the people who currently pay them for services, not the people who may someday maybe consider looking into paying them again if they decide they really want to. Maybe.
And no, I'm not trying to say that NCSoft somehow has a "responsibility" to do a name purge. Just that they (or any company) wouldn't be doing anything wrong if they put their existing base of paying customers before some theoretical base of returnees who may or may not ever be seen or heard from again, and will be arriving in comparatively tiny numbers if they ever reactivate their accounts at all.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
My argument is for cases of "forced" absence, which is why I was responding to a statement about that. Don't stretch my argument to cover inactive accounts in general.
However, I would say it's unlikely if not LUDICROUS to believe that even one person has ever canceled their account due to being unable to create a character with a specific name. On the other hand, I find it far more likely someone would cancel or decline to resubscribe over losing a name they already had. It has happened. People have canceled accounts over generic'ings they disagreed with.
People are attached to their names they have. Far more attached than they are to the names they don't have but want. It's like having $100 stolen from you vs failing to win $100 in a raffle.
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QFT.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Roswell
Well, I admit the second was better than the first, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that pointing out that there are a lot of situations in which stopping a month-to-month payment on something means losing your claim to it "completely awful." Unless you'd care to elaborate.
And I'm not sure how a company favoring paying customers over non-paying potential customers is "unethical" or how anyone is being "screwed over." It's simple: you pay the fee to keep the account active. That goes for CoH, phones, cable TV, whatever. The provider doesn't care whether you're using it or not (nor should they); they care whether you're paying for it. As long as you keep paying, the account stays active and you gain the benefits, whatever they may be. If you decide not to pay, you lose those benefits, and the provider is under zero obligation to you (beyond a reasonable grace period), because you're no longer a customer. You're a former customer. Sure, they'd love for you to start paying them again, but until you do, their only actual responsibility is to the people who currently pay them for services, not the people who may someday maybe consider looking into paying them again if they decide they really want to. Maybe. And no, I'm not trying to say that NCSoft somehow has a "responsibility" to do a name purge. Just that they (or any company) wouldn't be doing anything wrong if they put their existing base of paying customers before some theoretical base of returnees who may or may not ever be seen or heard from again, and will be arriving in comparatively tiny numbers if they ever reactivate their accounts at all. |
All that has been suggested is that the longer an account has been inactive, it is more unlikely that it will be reactivated. It has been suggested that if an account has been inactive, continuously, for 5 years or more, it may be time to consider a name purge of the lower levels.
All of this is hypothetical. Last word from dev's is no more name purges.
For those who say that if they had been gone for a long time and came back and a name was purged, they would have cancelled their account, I say, why give someone that much power over you. If you want to have fun, have fun. Life is about change. Accept and adapt and move on.
My account was inactive for about a year. I was pleasantly surprised to see my characters exactly as I left them. If they had disappeared or their names had changed, I would have started again, because I enjoy the game. I refuse to let any "one, single" element of the game be a make or break part of the game or infringe on my enjoyment.
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Nobody's stretching anything; you can't divide them like that. An absence is an absence is an absence. Unless NCSoft wants to delineate a specific policy regarding, say, military deployments (which they could do if they saw fit to), they have to treat every absence the same way. It's not their problem why a person can't play.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
My argument is for cases of "forced" absence, which is why I was responding to a statement about that. Don't stretch my argument to cover inactive accounts in general.
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Besides, where does the line go? Military deployments? Civilian Department of Defense contractors who are sent to war zones? Prolonged illnesses? Loss of income? Identity theft? Mom said no? What exactly constitutes a "forced" absence? Unless everyone is treated the same, NCSoft would need a team of people to evaluate what was and wasn't a "forced" absence, case-by-case. Which is probably not worth the time, manpower or money it would take to implement, to say nothing of the problems it would cause when someone disagreed with the evaluator's ruling. You think someone quitting over a name getting genericed is bad, wait until people are told their story of why they can't play wasn't sad or verifiable enough or for whatever reason didn't qualify as "forced."
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
People are attached to their names they have. Far more attached than they are to the names they don't have but want. It's like having $100 stolen from you vs failing to win $100 in a raffle.
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Originally Posted by Kryhavoc
All of this is hypothetical. Last word from dev's is no more name purges
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FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
Unlikely. The rules-of-thumb for name purges are posted somewhere (several somewhere's actually), but what it basically comes down to is, if the character in question is level 6 or higher, their name will never be taken away from them, even if the player hasn't subscribed in 4+ years.
The general consensus for why this is the case is that NC doesn't want to upset returning players if they log back in after x-number of months or years and find they've lost their character's name(s). IMO, that's a bunch of hooey. Anyone who has dropped the game for multiple years and returns expecting to still have their character names has a pretty big sense of entitlement if you ask me. I doubt if I went to work for another company for a few years and then returned to my current job, they'd have my office and parking space waiting for me when I returned. I know this topic is a dead horse, and it's probably not easy to do, but if it was possible, I think characters on inactive accounts should be stripped of their names if they are under the level of the number of months the account has been inactive. For example, start with accounts that have been inactive 24 months or longer: Inactive 24 months - all characters level 23 or lower are genericked Inactive 27 months - all characters level 26 or lower are genericked etc. etc. etc., until Inactive 51 months or longer - all characters under level 50 are genericked. In this way, if you have been an active, paid subscriber within the last 2 years, you'd only be at risk of losing a name in characters under level 6, and no one would ever lose a name on a level 50 character. This would be in addition to the current, infrequently run name-freeing-up program, and if were up to me, both would be run every three months. |
I think this is brilliant, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. I also honestly do think that 50s should be considered "special" over 49 and below and preserved for all time.
If people REALLY want those names, let's just attach some "special" title at the end of inactive accounts' level 50s that they can't get any other way, or something that makes them similarly unique and protected, while still freeing up the names.
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Sorry, PK, but I find I prefer Lothic's Staggered Schedule.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I like that this game is mindful of trying to keep returning players as happy as possible as far as maintaining their names are concerned. But I'd have to agree that 5+ years exceeds any and all reasonable allowances this game should ever be accounting for in this situation.
I favor a staggered approach of releasing names based on level and time exceeding 5 years. Basically it's a variation of Backhand's idea, but shifted upward to start at the 5 year mark: 5 years inactive account - name purge of all characters level 10 and below 6 years inactive account - name purge of all characters level 25 and below 7 years inactive account - name purge of all characters level 35 and below 8+ years inactive account - name purge of all characters level 49 and below I think something like this is a reasonable compromise between all points of view here. |
While it has been reasonable that anyone below 5 years has come back from time to time, if an account has been inactive, continuously, for 5 years or more, it is unlikely that they will be coming back. Granted, there is a possibility that they may come back with Going Rogue. But, if after Going Rogue has gone live and, say, 3-6 months after if went live and still the account has not been reactivated, I feel this Staggered Name Purge plan should be considered.
I repeat, I have had very little trouble getting the names I want, closest trouble I had was being restricted to one server, Pinnacle, for a toon name I absolutely wanted for Radiation Defender. The name, Depleted Uranium. Another toon had to settle for TreasuredChest instead of Treasured Chest and a third became Necro-Mantis instead of Necromantis. All other names I wanted, I got on first try.
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See, now you're going into "slippery slope" territory, which is inherently flawed in itself. "Where do you draw the line?" is a flimsy argument, usually leading to a list of increasingly absurd hypotheticals. Oh, wait, you did just that right there....|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Roswell
Nobody's stretching anything; you can't divide them like that. An absence is an absence is an absence. Unless NCSoft wants to delineate a specific policy regarding, say, military deployments (which they could do if they saw fit to), they have to treat every absence the same way. It's not their problem why a person can't play.
Besides, where does the line go? Military deployments? Civilian Department of Defense contractors who are sent to war zones? Prolonged illnesses? Loss of income? Identity theft? Mom said no? What exactly constitutes a "forced" absence? Unless everyone is treated the same, NCSoft would need a team of people to evaluate what was and wasn't a "forced" absence, case-by-case. Which is probably not worth the time, manpower or money it would take to implement, to say nothing of the problems it would cause when someone disagreed with the evaluator's ruling. You think someone quitting over a name getting genericed is bad, wait until people are told their story of why they can't play wasn't sad or verifiable enough or for whatever reason didn't qualify as "forced." |
The simple fact is that you and some others have an overblown sense of the amount of entitlement $15/month buys you. You also seem to think that just because you're willing to have character names taken from you, others should be as well. That's just plain childish.
As I said before, people are more attached to names they already have than names they could have had. No one has ever quit over not getting a name they wanted. People have quit over losing names they already had. Because of this, the argument for letting them keep their names of established characters ( No solid line there. Say level 20 and up... ) on the chance they could come back far outweighs the argument for taking them away.
However, again, your continued $15/month doesn't entitle you to this.
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I am confused here. We are talking about the idea of accounts that have been inactive, continuously, for long periods of time, such as 5 years or longer and the possibility that if the account has been inactive for such a long time, then those names should probably be purged as the likelihood that an account that has been inactive that long will ever be reactivated.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
See, now you're going into "slippery slope" territory, which is inherently flawed in itself. "Where do you draw the line?" is a flimsy argument, usually leading to a list of increasingly absurd hypotheticals. Oh, wait, you did just that right there....
The simple fact is that you and some others have an overblown sense of the amount of entitlement $15/month buys you. You also seem to think that just because you're willing to have character names taken from you, others should be as well. That's just plain childish. As I said before, people are more attached to names they already have than names they could have had. No one has ever quit over not getting a name they wanted. People have quit over losing names they already had. Because of this, the argument for letting them keep their names of established characters ( No solid line there. Say level 20 and up... ) on the chance they could come back far outweighs the argument for taking them away. However, again, your continued $15/month doesn't entitle you to this. |
If the account is active, there would be no danger of a name being purged.
"People have quit over losing names the already had." That is what you said? The only way that I know of someone losing a name they already had on an active is if they were generic'd due to possible copyright infringement. Perhaps I read that sentence wrong, but that is how it reads to me based on the rest of the post.
I bet purging trial accounts every quarter or so would free up a lot of names as well.
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And that is what I meant. They lost a name that they had and they quit because of it. And in this case, the name was lost because of an actual rules violation. Do you honestly think people are going to take it any better if they lose a name simply because they've been away from the game and haven't violated any actual rules?|
Originally Posted by Kryhavoc
"People have quit over losing names the already had." That is what you said? The only way that I know of someone losing a name they already had on an active is if they were generic'd due to possible copyright infringement. Perhaps I read that sentence wrong, but that is how it reads to me based on the rest of the post.
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As I say, no one has quit because a name they wanted wasn't available. Show me one case where someone has and I will stand down. But, as it stands, the argument from a business standpoint for letting people keep their names is stronger than the argument for taking them away.
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I am not asking you to stand down. You have every right to your opinion.
I'm just trying to state the opposing opinion in as constructive way as I can.
If an account has been inactive for a long time (5+ years), they probably won't be coming back. If, by some chance, they finally do come back, and they find a character's name has been generic'd, then it comes down to human nature. Some will use that one small thing to decide they don't want to play the game. Others will decide to play the game anyway and come up with the name anyway.
I don't know how the previous name purges were handled, but I read in an earlier post that your name may have been greyed out if it was part of the purge. It was only generic'd if someone had selected a name that you had before it was purged.
So if a name purge does happen again, and someone who has been gone for 5+ years does return, they would have only lost a name if someone else had chosen it after it had been purged.
If your account is active, then there would be no danger of losing a name for a character just because you haven't played that particular character for a long time.
The idea is to just target the long-term inactive accounts.
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No slippery slope, just backing up the point that you can't realistically differentiate between "forced absences" and lapses for other reasons. Your distinction, not mine. All I was trying to illustrate was that the rules have to be the same for everybody, and NCSoft can't and shouldn't be concerned with why a person's account is going unpaid, beyond possibly asking whether it was an in-game issue and what kind, so they might improve the game in the future.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
See, now you're going into "slippery slope" territory, which is inherently flawed in itself. "Where do you draw the line?" is a flimsy argument, usually leading to a list of increasingly absurd hypotheticals. Oh, wait, you did just that right there....
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
The simple fact is that you and some others have an overblown sense of the amount of entitlement $15/month buys you. You also seem to think that just because you're willing to have character names taken from you, others should be as well. That's just plain childish.
As I said before, people are more attached to names they already have than names they could have had. No one has ever quit over not getting a name they wanted. People have quit over losing names they already had. Because of this, the argument for letting them keep their names of established characters ( No solid line there. Say level 20 and up... ) on the chance they could come back far outweighs the argument for taking them away. However, again, your continued $15/month doesn't entitle you to this. |
Anyway, all I can speak for is myself, but personally, I've got thirty-five slots filled on my main server, and a half-dozen on another. All with names I'm very happy with. Every single one. Maybe three of those have names that weren't my first choice. If anything, I've got too many good names, because I have to make some tough decisions every couple of weeks when I discover a great name available and have to choose between deleting one of my less-played great names and letting the new one remain unclaimed (or claimed by someone else). So no, this isn't because I personally want to steal anyone's names out from under them while they're away. Even if the vast -- and I do mean vast; I'm guessing 95%-plus here -- majority of them will never be back for them. There are maybe four or five names total that I'd really like to have, but none of them are deal-breakers for me. So believe me, this isn't personal.
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Originally Posted by SunGryphon
I bet purging trial accounts every quarter or so would free up a lot of names as well.
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But purging the names taken by trial accounts that were never activated after a reasonable grace period (say, 90 days) should be a given. Never mind the rest of this, people who never paid cent one for this game shouldn't be keeping any paying customer from anything.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
I'd love to see (And I think it's a bit ideal and not going to happen or anything, but hey, doesn't stop me from sharing it)...
A Name Request sort of thingie system!
(Official name still under works)
Where a customer could submit a name they are interested in using.
IF that name is being held by an inactive account, an automated email is sent to the address attached to that account holder.
The person with the inactive account is given notification that their character's name is in demand and they are informed that they have a time period (Say... within 3 months) to reactivate their account or else that name may be taken.
That's just my opinion.
Many people believe that people who are away for great amounts of time for important reasons deserve to have their names kept for them no matter how long it's been.
I don't feel that way, but whatever... it's just opinions.
And, in the end, the opinions of the people running CoH (regarding this subject) are the only ones that end up mattering in terms of how it all works out!
And so far we've seen... they'd rather let people keep names, even from Trial Accounts and one month players.
Personally, instead of holding off name purges based on the amount of time that they are inactive and the level of the character(s) in question... I'd rather see that loyalty based on veteran status/amount of time subscribed!
If a player played for multiple years and has been inactive for two years, give them some leeway. A player that was subscribed for one or two months and been away for a year or two? I'd like to see those names opened up.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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No, anyone who thinks that just because they think one way, everyone else should as well is childish.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Roswell
And here we've reached the point where the friendly debate is about two steps away from name-calling. It's already entered semi-personal attack territory (anyone who doesn't agree with you is "childish"?); let's try to keep things civil, okay?
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Who said that? We're discussing things. That's what forums like this are for. Someone brings up a subject, people discuss it. Sometimes, they disagree, and they discuss further, with each attempting to back up their point of view. That's all I'm doing here. I thought that what everyone was doing here: presenting their point of view, their thoughts on the subject at hand, their ideas. Maybe some of the things some people posted have brought others around to their way of thinking, maybe not. But there's a difference between discussing things and... actually, I'm not sure what you think I think is going on here, but it's just a presentation of a viewpoint.
People think different things. People who think those different things are discussing the reasons they think those things, and responding to the comments, thoughts and criticisms of others. There's nothing malicious going on here. People just happen to disagree on something.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
No one said the exact words, but it was certainly the impression given with the statement that, having been deployed yourself, you were fine with it in response to the argument about people who were, by various means including deployment, forced to leave the game for an extended period.
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Don't read too much into things. If I want to say something, I'll say it. In this case, what I said was that, having been deployed myself, I'm fine with the idea of purging names on long-inactive accounts of people who, by various means including deployment, are forced to leave the game for an extended period.
You'll note the use of the singular, first-person pronoun "I," indicating that the statement refers only to me, and not to anyone else. I am fine with it. At no point did I say that anyone who disagrees with me was wrong or was not entitled to an opinion differing from mine. I said that I, me, myself, was fine with it. In fact, I (just me, and nobody else, unless they chime in for themselves) actively support the idea.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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Oooh, yeah, I've been wanting the name "Heeiiadndds" for a LONG time!|
Originally Posted by SunGryphon
I bet purging trial accounts every quarter or so would free up a lot of names as well.
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Yes, I kid.
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Now that is a good suggestion.|
Originally Posted by SunGryphon
I bet purging trial accounts every quarter or so would free up a lot of names as well.
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Trial accounts that have been inactive for say three or six months simply lose any and all naming rights associated with the characters.
Since the owner of the account apparently didn't like the game enough to purchase it, there is less grounds to believe that those players will ever return.
I would think if the trial account owner liked the names and planed to play again they would have upgraded to a full account for at least 1 month's play. Granted there is the chance most names held by trial acounts are RMT spam names, but they may be a few good or funny joke names people do want.
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Negative on that. Last word from the devs is that the name purge policy is toons under level 6 on accounts inactive 90 days or more can be purged. Furthermore, they gave official notice that the script can be run AT ANY TIME, with NO WARNING.
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Originally Posted by Kryhavoc
All of this is hypothetical. Last word from dev's is no more name purges.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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See this, I like.
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Originally Posted by Electric_Knight
Personally, instead of holding off name purges based on the amount of time that they are inactive and the level of the character(s) in question... I'd rather see that loyalty based on veteran status/amount of time subscribed! If a player played for multiple years and has been inactive for two years, give them some leeway. A player that was subscribed for one or two months and been away for a year or two? I'd like to see those names opened up. |
Actually, a better analogy? When I deployed, I was expected to keep paying for a telephone service I couldn't use, or risk having to get a new phone number when I got back.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.