Levels, outdoor missions and pvp - comprehensive suggestion

So, if I don't want the possibility of getting caught up in PvP, I have to just sit around in another zone waiting for it to finish before I can go do my new outdoor instanced mission in that zone? Then possibly wait some more as another villain does their Mayhem. Then wait some more.....

No thanks.

Wow, You've never done a mayhem/safeguard have you, or even read my suggestion? It's A PART (it's actually a very small part) of the zone, not the whole actual zone. As I said, choosing the location for outdoor missions will take some brainstorming. Also, how many outdoor instanced missions are there at the moment, that takes place within "this dimension" (not counting Shadow Shard, praetorian earth, Naylors & TV missions etc)?

..but your statement makes pretty clear that in this game, it's totally impossible to "force" anyone into a pvp-possible situation without someone going totally nuts!

Now... the pvp part is the part I care least about, but outdoor missions actually happening on the city maps instead of inside instances works very well in other games without people "waiting for another team to finish" or anything like that. Personally I see no reason why mayhems etc couldn't be done as well although it would be some serious work for the devs and some people would have objections to it because they prefer a static game that preferably doesn't evolve at all.

So, what you are suggesting is that a villain can do their mayhem in the actual Atlas park, say, but only be allowed to move around in a small part of the zone? What's the point? It would have pretty much the same effect to allow heroes to enter the mayhem instance, without annoying anybody who didn't want to be bothered.

As for outdoor 'instanced' missions, I wouldn't mind them adding some. But some should remain as they are. I liked being able to solo the Kronos Titan in that mission, for instance, and there is always the GM version that spawns for co-operative take down fun.


Oh, and the whole reason I started playing CoH when it came out was because I wouldn't be 'forced' into PvP situations.





Well, that and the spandex

Suppose I do NOT want Hellions conning white to me? And I don't. I didn't gain 50 levels so deadbeat level 1 enemies could pose a credible threat. On the flip side, certain enemies are intended to be incredibly dangerous. It doesn't make sense that a level 1 hero would be able to so much as look at them funny. That's the point, not the problem.

Instances were introduced in this game as part of a policy for reducing griefing. The less you depend on the actions of other people, the less opportunity they have to grief you. Plenty of players have advised others that, if someone is bothering you, just go into an instance where he can't follow. And now you want to open all instances to every damn yahoo that thinks a level 50 coming in to attack everything I'm fighting is helping me? No, thank you.

Go to hell. Does that communicate my feelings on allowing public-zone PvP accurately, or should I infringe on the language filter to elaborate?

The zones are just fine. I meet heroes and villains in them, and that's more than enough. I'm not interested in seeing SG events and the other garbage that used to pollute Atlas Park Broadcast until the Architect cleaned up the plaza. I ESPECIALLY don't want to see the zones come to life if that meant yanking ME out of MY missions and out where everybody can interfere.

By... Introducing PvP? So the only way that actions could matter is if you fight other PLAYERS and interrupt and possibly fail ther mission? "Hero vs. villain" does not translate into "player vs. player" in any way, shape or form that doesn't translate into "player vs. NPC" in exactly the same way.

No, it is not. You can refuse the Mayhem mission and still get a contact. This was done specifically for the people who DIDN'T want to do Mayhem missions. And even if it weren't, the "5*paper + mayhem" model is an abominable waste of time and effort if all you want is a contact. Mayhem missions when I feel like it is one thing. Mayhem missions because YOU feel like I should be doing it is quite another.

Essentially, mess with player's gameplay for the sake of feeling like you're messing with their gameplay. Rikti Invasions are already enough of a pain by making me switch zones when they occur, and they only occur once in a blue moon. It's also a pretty big illusion to think that "the Atlas posse" will rush to save the bank. At best they'll stay right where they are. At worst, the'll move away for a while.

There ARE no benefits for doing a Safeguard mission outside of experience that can be gotten everywhere else and a handful of barely-useful temporary powers that don't always even spawn in a Safeguard. Besides, heroes weren't "designed" so they don't need to do Safeguards. They were designed before Safeguards existed, and the developers chose not to repeat the mistake of hamstringing heroes to Safeguards as they did with villains. Yanking existing utility wouldn't have gone over well, anyway.

Yeah, that's some vivid imagination. Because I imagine when the message comes up, people already in Atlas would either keep hanging out in the Architect or move on to another zone. As well, I've been to events where it takes multiple people to accomplish something and been the only one there. Being killed because no-one else showed up was not fun, and I don't fancy giving stray villains PvP meat via my own body just because they came in a full team. Never design an even that depends on people showing up. People will NOT show up all the time, and for the people who do at these times it will suck enough to not want to repeat it.

I don't WANT other people "helping" me out by stealing my experience and throwing off my groove. That's why I do instanced missions instead of hunting the significantly larget Hazard Zone spawns. That's the POINT of instances, not the problem with them.

"It's done in other games" is the world's worst argument for adding something into this one, especially when it comes about alone. Especially since I've played some of those "other" games and never liked the idea that the things I was sent to hunt were being camped by the other 15 people who had to hunt the same things in the same area. That never made me any friends, but it may have made me an enemy or two. On the flip side, I've made a lot of friends by teaming in instances and for TFs.

Far as I'm concerned, PvP can go to hell. I'm certainly not interested in giving up MY game to help save a part of the game I have exactly zero interest in. I certainly don't want it shoved in my face so that other PvPers can have pot-shots at my unwilling self. Dropkicking people into PvP encounters is not a good way to improve PvP. Getting people to actually WANT to PvP is. If I don't WANT to PvP now when I CAN go and find it, why do you think I'd want to PvP MORE if I'm FORCED into it?

Why would I want to be inconvenicend to facilitate another player, when the game already provides plenty of opportunity for both of us to have our cake and eat it too? I don't want to PvP or even be exposed to it because there are PLENTY of non-player villains for my hero to fight and plenty of non-player heroes for my villain to fight. Why would I fight other players? I don't want to, and rather than trying to step on my toes ever so slightly (or more than just slightly) by trying to intrude PvP in my PvE zones, either try to convince me to go to a PvP zone or accept the fact that I'm happy it's hidden away in its own separate zones.

What if you're on the other side? Yeah, that's a bit tougher. These missions would have to be clearly marked as pvp content just like everything else (if they're on "the other side", most outdoor missions could be within friendly zones). I guess there might have to be a slight revamp of villain side so you don't have to do mayhems... ...or not. Personally I'm no fan of the pvp in this game, but going on these mayhems would be fun imho. I still get a new contact if I fail, and there's no debt, so...

I'm sorry if posting this makes me a jerk or if you feel I misunderstood you somewhere. The fact of the matter is that I LIKE the game's level structure, I LIKE the game's instance structure and I HATE PvP as a general concept. If you are interested in forwarding any of these ideas, do so without yanking my game from under me. I'm perfectly happy with how things are. Don't "fix" them for me. If we can both be happy, then fine. I don't have a complaint. That's why PvP zones are separate from PvE zones - everybody has his place. So unless you have a way to do this that DOESN'T ruin my game in new and creative ways, then I am VERY, VERY much against this.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

A level one enemy has hardly any powers. Problem taken care of! Higher level foes have more powers etc. Good example is the event GMs that's basically boring in Mercy, but good fun in Grandville. It would also make sense for you to actually help defend the city - yeah RP argument and it sikkens me, but still valid. Another example is how you level down when you do ouroboros missions. With trays full of insps, invention sets etc those low levels aren't quite easy. Imagine doing them with all your powers as well and I hope you agree it's not really a problem.

Well, I play on EU servers with completely empty zones, noone care about noone except ppl on global channels that know each other, basically. The zones are big wastelands of complete..waste of time travelling from one instance to another. Complete waste of time, HDD space and dev time.

Yeah, I kind of expected people to get upset about it!
Well, I'm definitely no fan of pvp in this game. it was a suggestion on how to make the game more alive because as a world if feels flat, dead, broken, useless.

But the zones are absolutely diddle-doodle useless and pointless. Might as well just be chat rooms and a tp to the next mission because the serve no purpose whatsoever.

I had a long rant on another thread about how our actions mean nothing. Whatever we do, nothing changes, except the RV graphics when you take a pillbox. This was another suggestion on how to make us feel our actions matter. You're welcome to search for the original thread.

Um, no you can't! You have to enter the mission and exit. I returned to that question later in the post, guess you missed it.

Agree with the rikti invasions because the cause serverwide lag on the EU servers. Again, we're talking about a veeery small part of a city zone going hot. It's one part of my suggestion, and I think a lot of people would concider the game more "alive".

Wow, you're upset, aren't you, marking words/timeline like that. Excuse me for not being overly clear about safeguards being put in later. I still described it correctly. As it is CoH IS DESIGNED so you don't need to do safeguards. Why it's still like that, because the devs didn't wanna change original code or because heroes would get upset doesn't matter to me in this case. It's totally irrelevant, but if it gets on your nerves, fine, you cleared that up for everyone. Good boy!

lol! First of all, if you've tried some of the other games that has open quests, xp isn't really a problem. In this game it's even less of a problem. I'm surprised (well, LMAO) that anyone really cares about xp anymore.

It wasn't my main argument, and I suggested several new ideas, I just pointed out that other games with in-zone, non-instanced action is a whole lot more alive and fun as a community. Might I remind you of old hamiraids. You probably didn't like them, but I and most others LOVED them!

Ok, calm down now: I NEVER EVER said we'd FORCE people into pvp so for effin's sake, calm down!

Well, by now you're probably even more upset, but we pretty much agree. I'm suggesting more game mechanics, but you could still play your game the way you do. There would be some previously instanced missions that would be in the open in skyway, steel etc, but... Is there about 20 of them total? You would hardly notice and would probably still be more annoyed with the silly "patrol IP" missions than these. As for PVP, I hope I've made it clear that it would really only affect those interested in taking a shot at it. Most zones are HUGE compared to the little square that would be the actual "mayhem" and as long as the servers can handle it, the only thing affecting you would be a message in the event channel and some shiny on your map. You could probably run through it without any travel power and still not be hit by anything.

As I said above this is basically a continued proposal from another EU thread about how to make us excited about the game again, feel like it all matters. When you've been here a few years (esp for us on the villan side) it's all getting a bit toooo familiar, well... honestly... quite boring. I stay in the game because I've invested time and money into it and because I've made a lot of friends I enjoy playing with, but the game can't stay alive on us enjoying the company. I - at least - need something new and shiny, and I'd prefer it'd be in my old friend CoV so I can keep my lovely 50s.

Again...
The pvp part was one example, a possibility, with actual in-zone missions. I expected people to react to it, but not to think it was THE MAIN point of my proposal. And how many think people would rush to defend the IP bank really? It's like the old EU PvP zone grinds, you never even come across anyone bothering you when you're getting shivans or nukes, you could usually - you can still usually - grind in RV without anyone bothering you.

It was ONE of THREE suggestions, and I still believe it would spice up the game a bit. Heroes could avoid it totally and with a change to the papers, so could villains. (And I agree, villains should get hero-style new contact introductions from Kalinda and on so we can skip them totally)

It's not a question of it being a problem or a challenge. It's a question of principle. I am level 50. They are level 1. I LIKE the fact that they have a 5% chance to hit me and their powers are 1% as effective and I have 95% chance to hit them and my powers are eleventy billion times more powerful against them. I like nuking grey cons into nothingness. I can't nuke white con minions with nearly as little effort.

To you. I enjoy travelling around the zones. There are, as well, ENEMIES in these zones to fight. Just because you don't fight them doesn't mean there aren't those of us who do. One of the most fun things I've done in this game has been taking my level 30-something Mastermind, teaming up with a friends' Mastermind and walking all the way from the city islands in Nerva Archepelago to Primeva without touching water, which meant crossing two Longbow Bases on foot, fighting everything along the way. We gained much experience and had a lot of fun. No PvP involved.

The zones are full of content. Use it. I like to use it, and I don't appreciate other people yanking it from under me.

Then come up with something better than "Let there be PvP." Preferably something that starts with "No PvP, but..." There are plenty of ways to make the world feel more "alive" that don't involved the whole can of worms of potential problems that come with even semi-open, non-consensual PvP.

The zones have enemies in them. Fight them. The zones have badges in them. Find them. The zones have plaques in them. Read them. The zones have a lot of pretty locations in them. Go to them. The zones are interesting to travel through. Travel through them. Your view of "purpose" seems restricted to "things to do with other people." There are PLENTY of things to do in world zones than interact with other people. Hell, there are plenty of hunt, delivery and patrol missions - ACTUAL MISSIONS - that need to be done in the world zones.

You're exaggerating on the lack of purpose.

My response in that other thread was the same one I have here - I don't need to SEE my actions mattering. I don't want to change the world for other people, because I wouldn't want other people changing my world. Our actions matter in the very own, personal universe each character exists in. Each of us has defeated Dr. Vahzilok, stopped Romulus Augustulus and saved a thousand worlds, yet for each new character these things are happening for the first time. That's enough of my actions mattering for me. I'm not interested in game mechanics that alter zones.

My actions matter if I care about doing them. I care.

People don't dislike the Rikti invasions because of the lag... Well, people who actually take part in them might, but those of us who AVOID Rikti invasions do so because they are BORING. I, for one, am never happy when I get saddled with a hunt in a zone taken over by an invasion and cannot accomplish it until the invasion is done.

I don't care how small the affected zone is. It's still part of the zone I am in and intrudes on my gameplay if I'm unlucky enough to have something to do there. I don't care about the zones feeling more "alive." I wouldn't care if they were dead. I'm certainly not interested in yielding a SINGLE INCH of my convenience to forward a notion I care nothing for.

If you want the zones more alive, look to designing non-obtrusive events in them, like the Steel Canyon fires or the Skyway City Troll raves. Don't presume to make people's experience more "alive" against their will just because you feel that's what they're supposed to want. Design events that make the zone alive without killing players in the process.


Well be surprised, then. Not all of us farm and grind to the "end game" so we can exemplar down to redo the content we skipped. I'd rather have my fun on the way up, and I'd rather not have meddling fools mess it up for me. I don't enjoy strangers not on my team "helping" me. I can tolerate it if they're considerate enough to help with buffs and debuffs only, but even then I'd rather they didn't. The fun of the game is the fight. If I wanted to have other people fight my fights for me, I'd go join a team. When I didn't join a team, it's because I didn't WANT to be on a team. If I didn't want to be on a team, I'm not going to appreciate people butting in on my fights and ruining my fun.

I like my instances for the same reason I like my home - it's the place where random strangers can't bother me when I don't feel like being bothered by random strangers. If you want to take this away from me, then you're going to have an uphill struggle.

How "alive" they felt is subject to interpretation. I would call those more "obnoxious" than alive. The very reason I play City of Heroes over all the other MMOs is because it's NOT like all the other MMOs. That's what I enjoy about it, so don't be surprised if I'm unresponsive to your approaches in making it more like the other MMOs. Other MMOs can go to hell. Tried 'em, they were all more or less clones of each other, all boring, all tedious and all too big on the enforcing social interaction. Screw that. City of Heroes is a game before it's an MMO, and I'm damn glad it is, or I'd have dropped it like all the other MMOs back in 2004.

It's also bad form to claim "most others." Unless you have some objective way to prove that, you're just making things up to make your point seem bigger than it is. Maybe you and most others you knew, but I rather doubt you know even the 100-150 thousand players City of Heros has, let alone the millions of billions that something like WoW has. Unless you have some objective way to prove what "most" people like, then do the smart thing and don't bring it up, because me and most other people REALLY hate that.

If I'm doing my mission and another player finds himself determined to stop me, how am I not forced into PvP? Or do you view this as "You have a choice of either engaging in PvP or not doing any missions?" If my mission includes not just the possibility, but in fact the high likelyhood of PvP, then I AM forced into PvP. It's like being given a mission with an elite boss and trying to spin an explanation about how I'm not actually, really, technically, being forced to fight an elite boss when it actually, really, technically, says "Defeat Elite Boss and minions" in my objectives. What, do I HOPE no-one wants to stop me, thereby defying the very point of your suggestion? Or do I hope it flops as badly as PvP zones did and that I'll be able to hit a dead spot and do my mission unopposed?

Any time PvP is placed in my path, I am forced to deal with it, either by engaging in it, by working to avoid it or by devising ways to mitigate its impact. Either way, it's a huge step down the rabbit hole from where I stand right now, where if I close my eyes and wish really hard, I can pretend PvP never existed. If I had my way, I'd yank PvP out of the whole damn game, but I'm more than happy to concede its presence and never complain about it as long as it stays out of my side of the game. Don't try to bring it over to my side of the game, please. I don't want it.

Is there 20 of what? Instanced missions? There are hundreds of them. Maybe not all in Steel Canyon or Skyway City, granted, but the game is full of them. And no, I do NOT want any of them to be "in the open." I like my instances. Not just because I like the privacy of an instance, but because I actually like the maps, themselves. I cannot and will not concede to the notion of moving ANY indoor missions outdoors. Not unless you move them to an outdoor instance, and even then I'm not too keen on that idea.

And I'm not mad about hunt and patrol missions. In fact, I love the occasional reason to hunt outside. I'd do more of them, were it not for the PITA of finding the appropriate enemies of the appropriate level in the appropriate zone, an indignity that isn't present in hard-coded instances. Yes, sometimes people interfere, but luckily, the outdoor zones are so "dead" that there aren't many people to bug me even outside. Frankly, I prefer that over the old days when everyone was outside and you were tripping over each other and competing for spawns. Forget that! I'm happy with my outdoor hunts, even though people still drop by and nuke my spawns for no reason.

And even if, per chance, I happen to find myself dissatisfied with an outdoor hunt, be it due to other players or because some yahoo at Cryptic decided it was a swell idea to have single players playing squishies go hunt 50 Stuff in Trial Zones with 8-man hardcoded spawns or whatever other indignity, I can just drop the mission and go grab an instance. That doesn't quite work if all missions are "in the open," does it?

"As for PvP," if you want it to be only for those interested in it, why not make it ONLY for those interested in it? Have it be instanced with people who want to take part after the announcement signing in and spawning in-mission Battlefield-style? That way it's easier to form consistent teams AND it doesn't get in MY way. Everybody wins! About the only thing you lose are spectators (which you ought to be able to have like in an arena match anyway), but if people are spectating and not taking part, chances are they're not INTERESTED in taking part.

I mean, if it's going to be only for those who are interested, why does it have to be hold around those who AREN'T interested? People have been suggesting instanced PvP missions where heroes and villains have opposing goals for years. Simply taking the Mayhem/Safeguard zones and turning them into a version of UT's Assault game mode sounds like a suggestion that should not just be superior to the current pointless incarnation of PvP, but even something I might want to look into. But it doesn't have to happen out in the open where it can involve the unwilling.

I feel nothing of the sort. I've been here for five years (got my 60 month badge a couple of weeks ago) and I'm nowhere near bored. There are so many characters to play that I fear I will NEVER be done even if I had 20 years. It's taken me 5 years to get 6 level 50 characters, and I have about 20 others still waiting to get there, and every new Issue gives birth to at least one more new character. With Issue 16's new Rad/Rad Blaster, I'm going to remake the Meat Machine I made and deleted five years ago. With Going Rogue... Who knows?

I stay with this game because I like this game. Exactly as it is. I'll never turn my back on something new, but I will NEVER stand for the abolishment of something old. I loved this game unconditionally back five years ago when it really WAS all about fighting stuff and nothing more. This, to me, is both the core mechanic of the game and the one thing that always keeps bringing me back. Well, the second thing. The character creator is and always has been the first and most important. I've made friends. Then they left. Then I made new friends and then they left. Some came back, some left again, and some are still here. And while I like my friends, I don't play this game for them. I will certainly never refuse hanging out with them in-game, but I pay $15 a month for myself and myself only.

I like this game as is. Build on it if you want, but DO NOT take away from what it already has.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Oh, please - not this again!

I interact with lots of people in the game - thru globals, broadcast, etc. I do not need to actually team with them or compete against them in PvP to interact and be a "multiplayer".

I play this particular game for the other aspects - that it is a *GAME* with a world setup and game mechanics that I like - in their current state, for the most part. Like Sam, I don't want people messing with how I interact with the game world because I like way it is right now.

And there is no single-player game out there that has this world and this combination of powersets and character creation and customization that I want to play.

I'm really sick & tired of people trotting out the old "but it's a multiplayer game, so you need to play it actively with other players (PvP or teaming or whatever)". In a solo-friendly game like City of Heroes, that's not really the best or only way to play.

Interesting. City of Heroes comes in single-player form? Where can I sign up?

In other news: your argument is trite and uninteresting. I've said this before, and someone even put it in his sig at one point: Just because I CAN play with other people doesn't mean I HAVE to play with other people. That M you are talking about is preceded by another M, and together they form the term "massively multiplayer," which describes a specific game design principle - a persistent world where all players play together on a common server, rather than off on private servers hosted by the players, themselves. This means that there are other people on the server, but does not in any way mean I have to actually interact with them.

And, if you would be so kind to get your facts straight, City of Heroes actually goes the extra mile to ensure that if I don't WANT to, I don't HAVE to. I can solo everything in this game, short of the few bits of insignificant quantity that require a minimal team size to start, and even those people have soloed. Every bit of content scales with team size. That is, it scales up with more people, but it also scales DOWN with fewer or no other people on the team. In fact, if I am by myself, even AVs will scale down to a class that I can defeat by myself.

You are also ignoring the fact that there are other means of interaction besides killstealing and PvP. Even other means of interaction aside from teaming. I am member of several Global channels and have a list of global friends. Almost every time I am on, I can interact with people via those, even if those people's characters are not in my direct presence. In fact, being solo, I can interact with people BETTER because I can always stop and chat without having impatient team-mates waiting on me.

What's more, my demand is about not HAVING to interact with other people, not out and out never meeting anyone else. I team. I do TF. I even do PuGs from time to time. When I feel like it, IF I feel like it. I might even be inclined to do some PvP when the fancy strikes. But when I do NOT feel like teaming or PvPing or dealing with random ******** who think harassing me is super fun, then I DON'T HAVE TO. And if you want to tell me I should either have to or go play a single-player game, then you can go to hell.

I'm only anti-social with pretentious bigmouths who presume to tell me how to play my game and insist that this is an MMO and I should suffer every damn fool who wishes to interfere with my gameplay. I don't take well to being dictated to by some random guy on the Internet whose only power over me is his ownership of a keyboard, and so I might come off as more than a little bit of a jerk. I'm actually a very nice, understanding, considerate person when I'm in the mood for being sociable. In these times, I seek out teams, do cooperative, sometimes even competitive content, chat with people and so on and so forth. When I do NOT feel like it, then I go off to be by myself, and that's the way I like it.

Let me say that one more time:

Just because I CAN play with other people doesn't mean I HAVE to.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

For the love of whatever deity. I've never ever, NEVER EVER said anything about "yanking it from under me". I can't believe you're still stuck on that! I'm talking about adding stuff, not removing stuff or forcing it upon people. I bet there are contacts/arcs you already choose not to do because you don't like the content? As I've said, I've posted other suggestions about how to make our actions matter (like giving us choises that affect future missions etc). I refuse to repeat myself since thoose posts where rather epic as well.

I strongly feel you're in a minority! Also, FYI, I play villains. We get a few GMs, that's about it. Guess what! Noone cares about them! Getting the badges was fun once! Getting the plaques was annoying even the frist time around. "Defeating" Lusca - I still enjoy it. Even if you're a part of a majority, how can adding stuff be so incredibly bad?

Ok, so forget about the pvp suggestion. How can a charity speed race in skyway or someone beating a boss or clicking a glowie, that's unclickable to you, or perhaps leading a hostage somewhere be bad for you? I seriously can't understand why you're being so upset about this.

Actually that didn't matter at all. Beating any villain, doing anything doesn't affect anything, not even the next mission in the arc. You're actions are completely pointless except they give you drops, xp, inf, prestige, but they do not matter at all. If beating Dr Vahz. actually changed the next mission, and not beating him moved you to a completely different mission, sure. The re-playability of those arcs would increase a lot. Again, I refer you to my old thread. It's all about making us feel involved and increase the (re-)playability.

They're good examples, yeah, but once again there's no reason or benefit from doing good/evil, so people don't bother. I agree there's a fine line, a hard balance act. Make things better when people act, and in some way worse but not too intrusive if good people do nothing while evil happen all around them. Again, It was NEVER EVER about FORCING people, but definitely about giving people more incentive to do good/bad and not just rush off to the next mission.

Wow, I'm beginning to think this is personal for you. What I'm saying is that if you enjoy the game, xp doesn't matter. Sure, you can interpret it the other way around. I DO prefer playing my 50s, but since there's hardly any end-game content I rarely do so. I'm rather famous for my alt-o-holism. Point is, wether you like the game and play it, or you just want a 50 (or ten) - doesn't matter. XP - for me - is a non-issue. Anyway, if you do like the fights, and need/want xp, I can't see why you'd oppose slightly stiffer fights in Atlas that gives some xp. Oh, well, let's not go there again!

For cryin' out loud, we're talking about a small percentage of the missions. I don't like patrol missions, but the few I encounter I do within minutes or autocomplete. If you weren't so upset, your post would amuse me since you seem to think I want to change the game completely. I'm talking about a small addition to the game mechanics. To me it would make the game a whole lot more enjoyable, while you could easily skip it.

As for the hami-raids. Agreed I can only speak for the EU people, but it was a major community event and quite often it seemed like more than half the servers showed up. The mothership raids every sunday on Defiant is another fine example. Personally I can't stand that raid due to how it's constructed nowadays, but it's another great community event. A LOT of people show up not because the raid itself, but because they enjoy that community feeling. Same thing with the hamiraid, the actual raid itself was pretty much run on autopilot but there's no doubt people enjoyed it. Those that didn't, well noone ever forced them to take part of it. Same with my suggestions. Noone's forcing you to do that part of the content. If you still think so, either you're misunderstanding me on a graaand scale or you're just determined to continue for the heck of it. Also it was a suggestion, not a complete, finished fine-tuned proposal and the point of posting it was for people to improve it.

It's easy to find faults and problems, but you seem determined to not improve the game, just keep it as it is? I guess you and the other two can keep the servers to youself and solo your heart out then...

Ok, now YOU ARE arguing just to annoy me! Instanced OUTDOOR MISSIONS!!!! FFS, if you're going to argue about how bad my idea is at least STICK TO THE IDEA, not you're wild hateful imagination, man! What the heck did I ever do to you to make you so upset you're fabricating wild fantasies? I didn't even say ALL instanced outdoor missions should take place in the "real" world. I sort of hoped people would discuss how many we could have before people considered then intrusive and annoying instead of stimulating and fun. Just to retaliate since you're obviously taking this personally, I find the instanced indoor missions to generally be stupid beyong imagination. What sort of architect would make offices like that?

Another good example of how you CHOSE to misinterpret. Again, we're talking about a handful of the current instanced outdoor missions. Just like other missions you don't like you'd be able to either autocomplete or avoid those few arcs. Or just quickly run/jump/fly to the glowie/hostage/whatever and complete the mission goal. We're not talking about the typical old-style stupid hero "defeat-all" missions! Oh, guess you actually like them too.

That would requre one side to hang around hoping for someone on the other side to join, ergo my suggestion where you would see the channel message, run off to the deserted useless corner of the zone if you wanted. Let's face it, just because you, ONE PERSON, still enjoy running around the zones, doesn't imply others do. Most zones are completely empty, bar the people moving to and from missions or hanging around one or more central points like the station, the MA, TF contacts etc. I still fail to see how a small patch of IP or Nerva turning into a zone where one, possibly eight villains run aruond probably hoping no heroes would mind them can possibly interfere with your (imho unusual) playstyle. But sure, ok, let's forget the pvp part. Imho we could as well kill the ded duck that is pvp, although the devs seem determined to try to get people to pvp more. Again, have you tried the pvp zones? How often are you "forced" into pvp even in them? I might be speaking for the EU servers only, but I've never ever been attacked in Warburg or BB without actually agreeing first, bar the first few weeks of Warburg when everyone had a lot of fun there.

Actually I think you ARE doing just that, since I haven't been talking about removing anything for anyone. I guess you still dislike inventions and invention sets? How about I16? Ohgod, Pink Imps! Banish!!! You seem to be absolutely determined to twist my suggestion into something it never was just to keep the game just as it is, a five year old, ageing old-style game. I still love the game, I want to recognize it and feel familiar with it, but I want new stuff too. New story content - a lot of it, new game mechanics, updated graphics engine (not neccessarily meaning more demanding, just updated) etc. I don't want the game frozen or rewinded back to I3 and I'm not content with more power proliferation or "new" powersets. I'm not interested in making a new d00m post, but the game needs all it's players and more new players. It needs you AND me.

May I suggest you read my suggestion again, with open eyes, remember it's an early draft suggestion that can be improved and that I have no intention or interest in ruining your game experience. Why not come with some positive suggestions on how it could be done, or how to make "my kind of people" interested in re-subscribing? I think we agree on more that we disagree really.

Read my suggestion again! We're not talking about "open world" pvp.
Schesus, mention pvp and everyone goes mad!

I think you don't quite get the concept of "instanced". Nor the reason the game goes with an instanced setup, rather than just open zone quests.

Three of the big reasons for instanced play vs open zone. Note, these aren't the ONLY reasons, just the three I've chosen to name now.

1: Removes possibility of people coming in and killing stuff in a way that renders the mission unable to be completed or robbing you of exp by destroying enemies instead of you. It also stops competition by multiple players to complete identical quests.

2: Performance issues. Having multiple instances of multiple missions automatically add and subtract themselves from zones in an openly acessible (to everyone) fashion would introduced ridiculous amounts of load onto the server.

3: It's kinda hard to logically justify. This extra zone portion automatically APPEARS and attaches itself to a zone. WHERE? Or if you're talking about mobs just spawning in an existing zone. We already have that. Rikti raids and zombie invasions. Ask some players how they like those.


PVP is ALREADY the illegitimate stepchild of the game. And, again, you want to have people who DON'T want to participate in PVP waiting in another zone until this idiocy ends, just so they can go ahead and do their own missions?

HELL *BLEEP!* NO!


And the problems with it are legion.

Sure, it'd kill PL'ing if all enemies conned identically. It'd also bore the hell out of people.

Again, if people want to PL, LET THEM. They pay their 15 bucks a month to play. If they want to do it in a boring manner, be my guest.

I'm sorry, I call male bovine feces. This wouldn't "bring the zones alive". Indeed, some of these changes would drive people OUT of the zones where some of this would be happening.

If you want PVP, go to a PVP zone. Plain, simple, easy.

Okay, you have these in instanced maps because of special enemy distributions, side missions, and exploration badges that aren't meant to be openly available.

And what if you have high-levels in the group for zerging the mission for said badges and completion?

I can see

*L2 Hero* "Let's go stop that bank robbery!"
*L50 Villain* "I think not."
*SPLAT!*

Yeah. Tons O' Fun.

Quote:

"But I don't wanna PVP!"

PVP zones are currently optional. You have to make the CHOICE to go there. Your option would mean that people essentially have to leave a PVE zone if they don't want to accept this FORCED PVP.

Also, how do you coordinate such PVP events? What if you spawn into a mish and there's no opposition?


Inks up the orbital 500-foot wide "NO!" rubber stamp and performs an orbital drop.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

You're also suggesting to move my missions outside. I don't like that. Why do you need to mess with and ruin existing content, instead of adding to it, as you say. You want to suggest adding more purely outdoor missions? Go for it. But ADD those missions, don't yank existing instances out. That way if I want to play outside, I'll go play outside, but if I want to play inside, then I won't have be annoyed at the guy who thought it was a good idea to move all missions outside. Don't be that guy.

No-one cares because these activities don't yield a good enough reward. If you have any illusions that making the game feel more "alive" and bringing the stars down from the sky will get people to leave the Architect and leave their farms, then YOU are in the minority. The idea that you can make content so engaging that it will pull people away from fat loot grind and the big rewards farms is a pipe dream. It was never anything more. Your idea, provided you don't slash and burn the rest of the game to push it forward, is interesting, but don't kid yourself that the community will certainly come together in the joy and jubilation of charitable, good clean fun. It won't happen. The only thing the community will flock to is a clear exploit.

What you're adding isn't bad for me. The more the merrier. What you are REMOVING is bad for me. I like my instances, and you can yank them out into the open over my cancelled subscription. Keep your hands away from my instances. Do not remove content I am perfectly happy with so that YOU can be happy, instead. Suggest NEW content for addition into the game and I won't so much as open my mouth. More new content is always good, outdoor, indoor or inbetween. Taking away my old content is never, ever good. Simply forget about this idea.


I don't need the game to give me in-game systems to make my actions seem like they matter, especially if it makes them matter to other people. I'm perfectly fine with a linear path of progression where everything is predetermined. Defeating Dr. Vahzilok matters as much as it gives a reason why you don't see Vazhilok anywhere past the level 15-20 range. In this game, levels represent time, so the higher your level is, the longer you have been in the city and the more things have happened TO YOU. That's perfectly fine for me, and I'm not interested in upsetting my status quo to improve on it.

Two important points to consider: Firstly, making things worse in ANY way is the wrong kind of incentive, and IS, in fact, forcing people into actions they may not enjoy by means of penalties if they don't. BAD IDEA! Design your events such that they give good benefits if heroes/villains take part and succeed, and with NOTHING if they don't participate or fail. This way no-one is forced into anything by consequences, but there is still POSITIVE INCENTIVE to taking part in them. At worst, nothing happens, but the potential to benefit is there.

Secondly, people don't do them not because there isn't any point, but because they don't give experience, drops or merits. Again, if you have any illusions that people at large are going to do them because they are fun, you are wrong. Mind you, I don't think that's a GOOD thing, but that's the reality of MMOs in general. You can make these events fun and enjoyable and, hey, even I might drop by for a spin (I stop Steel Canyon fires as often as I can get to them in time), but please don't use that as an excuse to nuke the existing instances from orbit. You hold these "alive" and "consequences" things like they are the holy grail of gaming and I care precisely zero for them, and am in fact glad we don't have more, so please understand why I don't appreciate such suggestions. I'm certainly not against adding more content WITHOUT messing up old content, but you can't use "If you build it, they will come" as justification for rewriting the rule book. They will not come.

It's personal for me because I like the game AS IS and don't fancy changing existing mechanics I am perfectly happy with for the benefit of someone else. Call me egoistical, but I cannot and will not support changes that decrease my enjoyment of the game so that someone else I don't agree with can enjoy it more. The reason I keep saying "I" and "my" is exactly this - I will not argue against changes for the benefit of other people, as long as they aren't to my detriment.

As far as experience goes, it matters. Rather a lot. Levelling up, at the bottom of it all, is the point of the game. Not a mad dash to level 50 so you can engage in the end game that doesn't exist, but levels form a timeline that tells the story of the journey. We all start as crappy, weak supers in a world full of danger and progress through the levels, gaining power, strength and confidence, eventually reaching a level where we can take on most anything and not fear imminent defeat. It is levels that mark this passage, and it is experience that makes levels go by.

As for why I would oppose stiffer fights in Atlas Park, it's because this RUINS the whole point of progress to begin with. The fact that level 1 Hellions are completely powerless against a level 50 hero is something I LIKE. It shows me that once upon a time, these guys were tough, but now I could fall asleep in the middle of them and they still wouldn't be able to hurt me. THAT is progress, and that is something I like and want to preserve. It's personal for me because you would have that taken away from me. I don't WANT "stiffer fights." I'm perfectly happy with easy, one-sided fights, thank you very much.

Oh, I see now. Your original quote said:

Put all instanced OUTDOOR missions, not all instanced missions outdoors. OK, that's not nearly as bad or disruptive as what I originally read it as. I'm still not a fan of it, however. As I said before, I like my instances, indoor and outdoor, and I don't appreciate them being taken away from me. Why is it such a problem for you to suggest NEW missions being made in the public zones instead of recycling old missions that I PREFER doing in outdoor instances? Everybody wins!

I've been to two Hamidon raids and a bunch of Rikti shuttle raids. Without a fail, these experiences have been abysmal and repugnant. The raids themselves are stupid, boring, laggy and unentertaining, and people become hideously annoying in large groups. The one successful Hamidon raid I was on, I had to turn off broadcast because a bunch of idiots were bickering and throwing around "UR MOM!" jokes like they were going out of style. You like public events, but please don't sell them as best thing since sliced bread.

As far as no-one forcing me, if you can manage to AVOID recycling existing content, destroying it in the process, yes, I can agree there's nothing that should bother me. There's a reason I avoid Rikti and Hamidon raids like the plague. Again - if you're looking for improvements of the idea, drop the notion of taking existing content away from people who like it and suggest BRAND NEW content.

Oh, and that surprises you? So everyone should always strive for still more and still more change and never be satisfied with what he already has? I was happy with this game from day one. I didn't join it and thing "Hmm... Now if only this game had loot and an economy and PvP!" I like the game as it is. I do want more stuff, obviously, but what you're offering isn't "more stuff." It's tantamount to LESS STUFF, because you're taking away content I was happy with. Improving the game should be done by adding to it, not by punching holes in it and hoping you can plug them up. Suggest NEW ADDITIONS, not the removal or repurposing of old content. You may or may not have a point in repurposing content no-one ever uses, like Hazard Zones (we've seen at least one "reclaimed"), but instanced maps are NOT such content.

Why is it so hard to understand that I don't want anything already in the to be removed or changed fundamentally, and that you should suggest NEW stuff, rather than remade OLD stuff?

The kind who designs buildings with doors that close, which people perceive as flat walls. Don't get me started on office buildings and how people constantly pretend all those closed doors don't exist and any wall with a closed door on it is the same as a solid wall.

As for your suggestion, I apparently misread your second point, as pointed out above. I read that as changing all instanced missions into outdoor world missions. Clearly, that was my fault for misreading, though I can't say your general tone didn't support my mistaken view of what you were suggesting. Even talking about JUST outdoor instances, though, I disagree. I like that outdoor instances are instanced, and many of them take place in locations that don't actually exist anywhere in the city. That's their point - to make the city seem a little bit bigger by having the game pretend you're taking the train to a neighbourhood you wouldn't find in the open-world zones. I like this design.

If you want public zone missions as described IN ADDITION to those, then go for it. But don't ask for these missions INSTEAD of the existing ones.

To avoid repeating "I misread you," read up. As for defeat-all missions, I treat every mission as if it were a defeat all. The fun is in the fight, and it makes no sense to leave an instance so I could spend more time travelling, when I could spend a bit more time killing stuff.

First, your anecdotal evidence differs from my anecdotal evidence. I can only speak for Pinnacle and Victory, but I meet other heroes, and indeed other villains, just running around the zones, travelling, killing things, or just looking for something to do. It's not COMMON, but it actually makes things a little bit cooler, because it reduces the feeling that I'm some stupid grunt in a city with 50 000 heroes. Occasionally meeting another hero fighting crime is cool. Tripping over heroes in the search for crime to fight... Not so much.

And you still haven't managed to convince me why having this in public zones and not instanced is a good idea. You're starting to contradict your own arguments. On the one hand, you're doing this to make such missions more public and make the zones more alive, as it were, yet at the same time you claim the zones are so empty that no-one will ever see these things. You can't have it both ways. In fact, it's exactly because you can't have it both ways why I still insist that while this isn't a bad idea, making it instanced is still superior. That way people don't have to travel to the butt end of IP and hope they spot a fight that may be over in the bloody ages it takes to get there. They can just respond to this like an Arena invitation and join the fight right away, possibly even right out of an instance.

By far the biggest mistake of PvP was spreading it over huge outdoor zones where actually fun encounters require a blatantly unsustainable PvP population. You're doing the same thing. Having these fights in easily-accessible instances that corral the participants together so that the density of players reaches the needed critical mass before it becomes more fun and less griefing is essential. Your agenda to make these things public for no good reason is working AGAINST them. Hell, if I heard that villains were attacking a bank and I could "join the server" and help fight them off, I probably would. Or I may not, if I don't feel like it. If I just run by them... Eh, I'd probably keep on running. You're never going to get anything meaningful like that in outside zones.

Now, if you want to, say, clone Safeguards to double up in the real outdoor zones, then SURE! As long as it's not at the cost of REMOVING existing Safeguards, then I have nothing against it. If you want to introduce real CoV players into CoH zones, however, I'm going to insist on an instanced match that was visible simply accessible to the public.

I don't LIKE your suggestion, so I have no reason to look for ways to improve it. I am only interested in finding ways to make it impact me less. As long as you don't step on my toes, I'm not going to complain about anything you do. It's pretty simple, really. I have nothing against you and I have nothing against what you want, as long as you can present this in such a way that it doesn't take away from MY gameplay. This means no changes to old content, not such fundamental ones, anyway, but adding NEW things. What really keeps me coming back to argue some more is this simple fact - I don't want old content written over to make your new content. Not gonna' happen. If you want to suggest new content, then suggest new content. Don't try to overwrite old content, no matter how minor you may think it is.

I don't want the game frozen in time any more than you do, though I despise the very concept of Inventions and all the "loot" they brought with them. I can do without loot without batting an eye. I just want the game to be IMPROVED, not CHANGED. There are plenty of things that can be added to the game WITHOUT gutting the system and turning it into something I don't like in the slightest. More stuff. More missions, more maps, more powers, more enemies, more stories, more content. If you want changes, then present them as OLD content, not as fixes for what ain't broke. Don't try to destroy the levelling system that is half the point of this game, don't try to yank four-year-old instances out into the open. Suggest NEW stuff to be ADDED, not OLD stuff to be REMADE.

You don't want me to complain? Then stop messing with my side of the game. Suggest new additions to the game and I will have no ground, or indeed any reason, to complain. Don't try to change the way I play and then tell me I can just ignore it. Add NEW content that needs to be played differently, and then you can tell me that I'm not losing anything, and you'll be right. Why is that so hard to grasp? Why is it that everyone who sets out to "fix" the game always seems to start by taking it apart? The game is FINE. Add to it, don't try to remake what's already been made.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Then you're confusing the strength of your feeling on the subject with the strength of your argument.

The problem is, you're not ADDING. You're CHANGING things to involve non-consentual PVP.

Why thank you! I'd love to!

A lot of these things happen already.


BZZZT! Now you're applying your own personal benchmark for "fun" to other people.

Sir? Your failboat awaits!

Because it removes the impetus for players to LEAVE Atlas in the main game (AE aside) and explore the rest of the city.

Yet you're talking about setting intrusive events that could FORCE unwanted aspects of the game on people into zones not specifically designed for them.

Full of yourself much? Disagreeing with you is NOT the same thing as "not wanting to improve the game".

Additionally, it's highly debatable whether the things you suggest would be seen as an "improvement" by a large number of the players in the game.


And what if the answer is "any"?

Soloing in this game is unusual?

REALLY?



Yes please.

Yup. Don't enjoy it. Even after the i13 changes. So I only go there for the PVE content (nukes, shivans, exploration badges).

Depends on the zone and how busy it is.

Even on low-pop servers I've been griefed in PVP zones.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

That's actually one problem that is... Well, very really, very objectively a problem - that's not an instance of Perez Park. It's a custom map that's supposed to take place in some forest far away from civilization. Even the vegetation doesn't correspond to any part of Perez Park. Not all outdoor missions have a clear counterpart in the actual, real city zones, and even some that do aren't supposed to. CoV maps are, for the most part, cutouts of city zones, because CoV IS all that we see from the islands, but CoH has a whole giant city outside the war walls. That flooded Bootown map, for instance, corresponds to a location that's a quarter of a mile high in the actual Boomtown and doesn't have any water. Most of the time it's used as a destroyed alien world.

Pretty much none of the CoH outdoor instances correspond to real locations, and many are specifically described to be outside the War Walls where our zones don't cover.

Toe be fair, instanced missions of this sort have been an often requested feature. It's how I originally expected hero vs. villain PvP to work, before I found out it was just big empty zones. Granted, retrofitting that into existing missions is ANATHEMA, but actually adding such missions as a supplement for PvP zones and the Arena is actually a pretty good idea. One of the key reasons people are phobic of PvP that they state is trash-talking and griefing, which is a direct result of PvP traffic being so sparse that the griefers shine the brightest. Bringing PvP into smaller instances where it's easier to fight fights and fights generally flow better would make legitimate encounters overshadow the griefers and trash-talkers. This requires a certain critical mass of PvPers per encounter, and concentrating those encounters in smaller instances could increase their density without having to goad more people into PvP.

It's like choke points in something like the Battlefield games. On a large open map even with huge teams you can't always find big, exciting fights because everyone's scurrying along the countryside, looking for undefended flags to capture and encounters are rare, boring and one-sided. On the flip side, over a map-defined choke point, most members of both teams clash and create unbelievable action. You actually need even LESS people to have MORE action at a choke point than over wide open terrain. I believe it was a mistake to design PvP zones for a MASSIVE PvP population that clearly never existed. Such instanced PvP competitive missions could prove to be the necessary choke points, and could institute further choke points inside them.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I noticed it was one of three. That's why I said I opposed the PvP one. The others... meh. As for the PvP zones being empty, well, try being me: as soon as I set foot in one of them with either of my badge toons I acquire fans bent on killing me repeatedly and with extreme prejudice. Again and again. So you can imagine why I hate PvP and chose not to go for the PvP related badges...