Wheelchair as costume option?
By
Arctic_Princess,
Posted on: 2009-03-11 14:16 in Suggestions and Ideas
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And those "random" development models are industry approved and recognised,
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If the industry approve it is must be true.
[In case you missed it, this is sarcasm]
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and highlight benefit of fixing even small things, early on in a project,
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early on, in this case, being seven years ago.
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talking clock npc's
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what does it matter? who talks to people in the street? You want realism? They should all tell you to burger off.
I really should do something about this signature.
<removed by mod>
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So far, im getting the impression, that its acceptable to leave bad things in the game, if they are small.
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It's a nessassary evil. Fixing everything requites infinite resourses, so if games had to be bug free, it would mean no more computer games ever.
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The point is that the issue has been highlighted to developers, they should fix it.
Its not like its something that they are not aware off.
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ummm... is this not a lot of to-ing and fro-ing about a fairly simple suggestion? unless it can be shown to be BAD suggestion, what does anyone have against the idea of wheelchairs in the game? sure, it needs to be prioritised against all the other work going on, as any suggestion would be. and also it would need to be implemented in such a manner as not to break existing game features etc... but isn't all that a given?
i just think, given the scale of the suggestion (and it is a Suggestion forum), the amount of opposition is a little "off the scale", considering this is a cosmetic suggestion.
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Sorry Cap,
We are sorta off topic.
We did agree that Wheelchairs are bad idea for players, however we did agree that it might be an acceptable improvement for architect (eg - npc contacts and such)
Now the issue seems to be whether or not civilians and mobs should be allowed to be enhanced to look better, get stuck less in walls, and have better AI and pathfinding.
Which everyone seems to think the answer is NO, because we want PVP fixed.
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No they don't. Learn to read properly.
I'm opposed because of the poor "Development time Spent" vs "Potential gain" ratio. But you seem to be too dim to follow the argument and instead prefer to throw out random Software Development models and weird imaginary Ethical scenarios which have nothing to do with anything.
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Carnifax, as a suggestion, the idea has merit. and it is a suggestion, just that. not a proposal for an ill concieved project plan. we're not even talking about a huge change (from the players point of view).
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It's a fairly huge change in development terms though, for almost no benefit. See my post above, I'm not even sure what the OP means by "improving models", it's a horribly vague term.
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who are we, and you, to decide what the actual "ratio" of development time to "benefit" is? i certainly dont have any visibility of the developers day to day schedules! This is a suggestion forum, where players should feel free to make "suggestions", and not have to defend them with high minded philosophical arguments or cost-to-benefit spreadsheets.
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He's free to suggest anything he likes. I'm free to rebuff it. I started out merely pointing out it was a fairly big change with a small benefit. That's when bizarre claims like "It will stop mobs getting trapped in walls and falling through scenery" were made which are frankly nonsense. I don't mind someone saying "I'd like to see better citizen models" but then claiming it'd fix things like mobs getting stuck in scenery, in order to sweeten the deal, is just wrong. If anything it's to do with map holes and dodgy wall geometery than it is to do with enemy models.
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i may be missing something myself here in this whole debate but where does all this "heat" come from? its not as if we are discussing a game imbalance that hinders play or enjoyment here.
surely there are other topics in this forum that deserve a more rigourous "kick up the proverbial" than this one?
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Not unless they grant me Closed Beta access 
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The point is that the issue has been highlighted to developers, they should fix it.
Its not like its something that they are not aware off.
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Along with a million and one other issues that have been highlighted, and they are aware of. Some of which are even important.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Nothing, bar the gales of laughter which will greet the Patch Notes when it's announced. Followed by lots and lots of posts along the lines of "FFS, why are they wasting time with this. Fix (PvP || Villains Content || Set X underperforming || Base Raids) instead".
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Noted - Its ok to leave small things in a bad state, as long as the big things get fixed, then we find more big things to fix, and ignore the small things forever.
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I'm just wondering what it is exactly that you expect from the devs? A development company has limited resources, priorities have to be set. Adding things that'll only interest a small niche group of players, like wheel chairs, or even 'civillian banter' just aren't, nor shouldn't be, priorities for a company with a limited budget.
And lets not forget that this game is FIVE years old. It was created by an unexperienced group of enthousiasts with little funding FIVE years ago. The game engine, created by cryptic, is not only aging, but as I have come to understand, also limited in its abilities and pretty cluncky to work with.
So comparing it to new titles saying: "Look at what they can do! Why doesn't CoH have that?" isn't at all fair. Ever played Doom lately? What a boring piece of **** and those graphics, oh man. Call of duty 4 is just so much better. Why didn't they make Doom look like that, huh?
Of course I'd like to see more life in the city, better character animations, better textures, better physics, more realism. I can imagine flying through a living, breathing city, suddenly beset by my archnemesis, I slam him through a skyscraper, people in the streets dodging the debrie. Awesome. Not very likely though.
Just hire more staff? They have, they are. But you can't just solve limitations by tossing money at it.
This game is first and foremost a way of making profits for NCSoft, that's just the way the world works. CoH doesn't have 10 million subscribers. There is a budget, that means limitations. So choices have to be made, development decisions, bussines decisions. And if that means that I don't have wheelchairs or more realistic streets, but I get to play new powersets, new missions and even can create my own missions and every now and then an old, longstanding issue gets fixed, than so be it.
Edit: Typing lenghty posts while doing other things makes you slow ...
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
What bothers me most about this discussion is the assumptions made by a disgruntled and bored player that wants a cosmetic improvement to the game. Even if he were to get his wishes and the civvies do get an overhaul and look great and act realistically and such... he'd still be bored with the game that's years old.
More so, is the air of this player stating facts and fiction and unrelated topics like he got them from the mountain of truth and wisdom, and that only he is right. Add in the minor insults and the major insults.
Last week I saw a comparison between WoW and Conan, which of course heavily favoured Conan as the new game with nifty graphics, also the quest system was highlighted as a great improvement, while I have found them working almost the same.
That doesn't take away from the fact that WoW is still going strong, while Conan is stuggling to keep it's servers up (last I heard any way)
Also.. what's this ficsation with the NPCs that tell the time, there are 26 letters in the alphabet, and only 2 of those give the time, the one of your computer and the one ingame. It's like "Hey buddy, what's the time" when you click him.. what does clicking one do actually?
Civvies are background scenery. If you take them away the game will still be the game, true, it'll be a lot quieter and the city would seem empty, but for the game itself, they add nothing.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
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but then claiming it'd fix things like mobs getting stuck in scenery, in order to sweeten the deal, is just wrong. If anything it's to do with map holes and dodgy wall geometery than it is to do with enemy models.
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To be frank, from your narrow player mindset and view, you have absolutly no idea to the cause of players, mobs, and civilians getting stuck inside, outside levels and other geometry objects.
(oh and by the way, anything appearing vague in my description, was due to you not reading it, in several posts back, I elaborated that Improving civilians could be
AI, PATHFINDING, MODELS(geometry) AND TEXTURES.)
My arguement was that by investing time in the improvement of model geometry, and other aspects, they might actually be able to fix the character models, while in the process of improving them, so they clash less with the environment. It occurs to me that getting stuck out of the level, is caused in part by a conflict between the model geometry and the world, physics forces more a less force the model into a place they are not meant to be in, and collision events dont fire properly. - This is my assumption, I recognise that it is an assumption.
Its just an assumption on your part that civilians getting stuck in roads, is caused by the world geometry, if thats the case then the world needs fixed,indeed, however I feel they could fix character objects (models, npcs, mobs) as a whole, to prevent them getting thrown out of bounds.
Characters, Npcs, and mobs are not just models, there is alot of scripting that goes into a model object, before it becomes an npc,mob, or even the character object.
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Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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but then claiming it'd fix things like mobs getting stuck in scenery, in order to sweeten the deal, is just wrong. If anything it's to do with map holes and dodgy wall geometery than it is to do with enemy models.
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To be frank, from your narrow player mindset and view, you have absolutly no idea to the cause of players, mobs, and civilians getting stuck inside, outside levels and other geometry objects.
(oh and by the way, anything appearing vague in my description, was due to you not reading it, in several posts back, I elaborated that Improving civilians could be
AI, PATHFINDING, MODELS(geometry) AND TEXTURES.)
My arguement was that by investing time in the improvement of model geometry, and other aspects, they might actually be able to fix the character models, while in the process of improving them, so they clash less with the environment. It occurs to me that getting stuck out of the level, is caused in part by a conflict between the model geometry and the world, physics forces more a less force the model into a place they are not meant to be in, and collision events dont fire properly. - This is my assumption, I recognise that it is an assumption.
Its just an assumption on your part that civilians getting stuck in roads, is caused by the world geometry, if thats the case then the world needs fixed,indeed, however I feel they could fix character objects (models, npcs, mobs) as a whole, to prevent them getting thrown out of bounds.
Characters, Npcs, and mobs are not just models, there is alot of scripting that goes into a model object, before it becomes an npc,mob, or even the character object.
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And to be frank you have no idea that its not because of faults with the world that models get stuck yet you seem intent on believing upgrading the models would solve this problem
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Civvies are background scenery. If you take them away the game will still be the game, true, it'll be a lot quieter and the city would seem empty, but for the game itself, they add nothing.
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Yeah good idea, take the civilians out, we can have a REAL city of Heroes - Populated entirely by Real people on their computers.
Thats like suggesting to take the doors of a building, its still a building after all, now you can just enter it alot easier.
Im suggesting an improvement, which if the developers did invest time in, might improve the overall look of the exterior areas of city of heroes.
Civilians might look nicer, more varied, they might walk around you instead of plowing through you like a tanker on a mission, heck they might be able to code in some sort of bump into person animation, or some sort of insult on collision with a player.
Eg - Hey Get out of my way!!
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Also.. what's this ficsation with the NPCs that tell the time, there are 26 letters in the alphabet, and only 2 of those give the time, the one of your computer and the one ingame. It's like "Hey buddy, what's the time" when you click him.. what does clicking one do actually?
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I'd also like them to come up with an alternative to the talking clock effect. Its like the civilians were programmed at Crey industries.
The fixation on this, is that its a poor system. What if poor little Jenny wants to say something other than the time. Its like a developer came up with it, and somehow thought it was a good idea.
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Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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And to be frank you have no idea that its not because of faults with the world that models get stuck yet you seem intent on believing upgrading the models would solve this problem
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Hey I have an idea...
Why dont the developers invest some time, and investigate, and fix the issue, seems to me that they might have less petitions if they resolve it.
Ah, But I remember... they arent going to fix it, cause everyone wants pvp fixed. Damn... Oh well.
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but they do say other things of there own back have you never noticed all the "hey there go's hero X did you here how he took down tyrant" they only give you the scripted information if you click on them i like to see how many hours I've played a character for and things like that what is that information being available doing to harm your enjoyment of the game.
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but they do say other things of there own back have you never noticed all the "hey there go's hero X did you here how he took down tyrant" they only give you the scripted information if you click on them i like to see how many hours I've played a character for and things like that what is that information being available doing to harm your enjoyment of the game.
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I fully recognize that they do often say things about <PLAYERX> beating <BOSSZ> and so on. These too are scripted in.
I'll be totally honest, I don't know what would be a better alternative to 'click on npc, and get time played back at me' but thats for business and development leads on ncsoft/city of heroes development team to come up with.
Im not trying to say
You will die of boredom if you walk down the street and the npcs sing the time to you.
Im pointing this out as an improvement, civilian characters are classed as ambient life, and as part of the ambient life of the city, they give a sense of ambience to the player about their surroundings.
Having good Civilian Models, Ai, and pathfinding, can overall, help to increase/add to a good ambience or sense of environment to the player.
One of the issues I've pointed out, is that the models look like they are made of plastic, why is this necessary.
Surely comic style can be less plastic?
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Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
I think that just about everyone here agrees that the ambiant life in this game could be improved upon, nobody is contesting that. However, everyone, except you for some reason, seems to agree that there are other issues that have higher priority, like addding actual content to the game instead of fluffing it up.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
What do you mean by plastic what would stop them looking like plastic in your opinion?
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What do you mean by plastic what would stop them looking like plastic in your opinion?
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Animated hair!
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seems to agree that there are other issues that have higher priority, like addding actual content to the game instead of fluffing it up.
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Actually, I have acknowledged that there are higher priority things, however, what everyone has missed, is that the state of the civilians, AI, PATHFINDING, and general model quality, has remained like this since the games inception, and there are no plans that have been announced to date, about fixing, or improving them. (If there had been, I would not need to post a suggestion about improving them.)
The reason its being pointed out, rebuffed, and pointed out again, is because everyone acknowledges it, but then continues to ignore it, because they want their precious PvP, and as usual, the issue of the civilians and ambient life in the city of heroes universe, continues to NOT GET BETTER, because its pushed to the background, by PvP which is unplayable to begin with, because its hosted on what seems to be an intel pentium 2 processor driven server, with 64 mb of ram. 20 players or more, and everyone else suffers. But the same could be said for every zone in the game.
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Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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but they do say other things of there own back have you never noticed all the "hey there go's hero X did you here how he took down tyrant" they only give you the scripted information if you click on them i like to see how many hours I've played a character for and things like that what is that information being available doing to harm your enjoyment of the game.
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I fully recognize that they do often say things about <PLAYERX> beating <BOSSZ> and so on. These too are scripted in.
I'll be totally honest, I don't know what would be a better alternative to 'click on npc, and get time played back at me' but thats for business and development leads on ncsoft/city of heroes development team to come up with.
Im not trying to say
You will die of boredom if you walk down the street and the npcs sing the time to you.
Im pointing this out as an improvement, civilian characters are classed as ambient life, and as part of the ambient life of the city, they give a sense of ambience to the player about their surroundings.
Having good Civilian Models, Ai, and pathfinding, can overall, help to increase/add to a good ambience or sense of environment to the player.
One of the issues I've pointed out, is that the models look like they are made of plastic, why is this necessary.
Surely comic style can be less plastic?
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Apparently not, looking at DC Online and Champions. Developers in those studios seem to think it's the way to go.
Part of the problem is that it's a bad idea to make an MMO with the level of detail you'd see in Bioshock or Crysis simply because of system constraints. Even compare Halflife 2 and Team Fortress 2. Same engine but the game designed to be multiplayer swaps high level detail for a lower level "cartoony" look partially so it'll run on more customers machines with less graphical lag (and partially because Valve are clever and liked the whole 60s cartoony look in the game)
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What do you mean by plastic what would stop them looking like plastic in your opinion?
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Animated hair!
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No, you evoked it!! She comes. The Golden one comes!!
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Apparently not, looking at DC Online and Champions. Developers in those studios seem to think it's the way to go.
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They think whats the way to go?
Talking clocks?
(Im asking a genuine question, you quoted a large post, and not actually sure which part you are refering to.)
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Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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What do you mean by plastic what would stop them looking like plastic in your opinion?
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What do I mean by plastic?
Look at your character in the character creation screen, you get more glare of their hair than a bald man under a spot light.
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Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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Apparently not, looking at DC Online and Champions. Developers in those studios seem to think it's the way to go.
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They think whats the way to go?
Talking clocks?
(Im asking a genuine question, you quoted a large post, and not actually sure which part you are refering to.)
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The plastically, cartoony graphics (both look like The Incredibles)
I'll admit, the plastic issue I have, is mostly concerned with models hair.
I dont think its necessary to get that much glare from hair.
But thats small change compared to the issue of civilians as a whole spouting c Rap about the time, getting stuck in walls, pushing players out of the way like they have super strength as a primary powerset, and generally not reacting to their environment or players.
You cannot deny that a screenshot of Paladin attacking kings row would look better with NPC civilians Running away with their arms in the air, stumbing over eachother, and screaming.
Opposed to
Paladin in the middle of the road, cars continue to drive at him, push him out of the way, and npc civilians walking up along the footpath ignoring the fact that there is a giant monster with immense power nearby.
Azmodan - 50 - Storm/Energy Blast Defender
Baaleos - 50 - Gravity/Power Blast Dominator
Orici - 50 - Fortunata
Psi'on - 44 - Kinetics/Psionic Defender
Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
And adding more detail, more AI routines and more environmental fluff will help those poor servers how?
No, serious, you are saying it yourself: people care more about content (be it pvp or something else) than about fluff, so the devs seem to making the right decission in ignoring the poor neglected civillians and spending their limited resources on stuff players rather have.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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And adding more detail, more AI routines and more environmental fluff will help those poor servers how?
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Never said it would help the servers, but ya never know, might make the zone look nicer being populated with smart civilians opposed to drones.
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ignoring the poor neglected civillians
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Exactly, but does this mean it will never be fixed?
Does this mean the civilians and ambient life of the city will continue to suck.
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Baaleos - 50 - Gravity/Power Blast Dominator
Orici - 50 - Fortunata
Psi'on - 44 - Kinetics/Psionic Defender
Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
I honestly dont mind when something like civilians gets fixed, as long as it does.
Just ignoring the issue of Civilians that spout the time of day is just sh1tty to be honest, its the poorest example of coding, development, and decision making ever.
They SHOULD fix civilians pathfinding, AI, and if possible improving model quality could help both performance issues if the models are optimized further, and they might be able to prevent the dreadded mob stuck in wall issue.
Whether they do or not is another issue.
But no one can dispute that these things are issues, albeit small issues.
But they are not going to go away, unless a developer fixes them.
Azmodan - 50 - Storm/Energy Blast Defender
Baaleos - 50 - Gravity/Power Blast Dominator
Orici - 50 - Fortunata
Psi'on - 44 - Kinetics/Psionic Defender
Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor