Wheelchair as costume option?
By
Arctic_Princess,
Posted on: 2009-03-11 14:16 in Suggestions and Ideas
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They would be welcomed. But as you now say (finally in agreement with everyone else) they certainly aren't a high priority. And in no way does a lack of them forthcoming mean NCNC are being unethical in not providing them for us.
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No one is grasping the point I made earlier where I pointed out that I had not said they have made an ethical decision.
I merely pointed out that IF they HAD compromized the quality of the game, as a cost cutting measure, then that would be a ethical issue. Read the very first post that mentions ethics, Its in reference to a members post where he believed the quality improvements had slowed or were cut because of funding.
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And if you so find the quality of a game to be the reason to get it. Why don't you go look at Biowares game lineup, better quality for money you won't find anywhere.
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Actually, I do enjoy Neverwinter Nights, and Baldurs Gate 2. Although I admit I had bugs galore with Baldurs Gate 2.
Obsidian however made a totally BAD decision with Neverwinter nights 2. They released the game, when it was still in ALPHA, there were show stopping bugs, players couldnt play on their operating systems, and in general, they released half a game. The game they released on the disc, was not worthy of even considering to buy, It took 10 patches just to get the game to playable, and in many cases, your save games from the earlier unplayable versions, resulted in wasted time. You could say thats an ethically bad decision. Charging for a whole game, that was unplayable AT ALL, imagine the poor sod who didnt have the internet, and couldnt get the patches. The game should not have been allowed into the shops on its original release date.
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The Risk statement was in reference to your own post.
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would also prevent some monsters getting stuck in walls too,
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Erm how exactly? If anything all it does is increase the likelyhood of new, fresh bugs being introduced with the changes.
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Your argument is that they shouldnt attempt to improve the models or civilians because it increases risk,
My arguement is that Risk is increased if they release more features, and things that rely on those models, if they ever do choose to change them.
Means that when they try to fix the models, they potentially have more to break, where as, if they fix the models early on, before too many things rely on them, then the risk is minimal, and less costly to fix.
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I merely pointed out that IF they HAD compromized the quality of the game, as a cost cutting measure, then that would be a ethical issue.
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All games compromise quality. There is always something you could improve or add with a little more time and money. It is a purely business decision about when to sign it off. To early, and it wont sell, to late, and it will have lost to much money in development and won't be profitable.
All this has exactly NOTHING TO DO WITH ETHICS.
I really should do something about this signature.
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GlobeCo had made a decision to stop the daily checks because it took too much time
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Im equating this - to NCSoft not improving the little things in life, like the general nicness of the city and inhabitants, yet still being paid by the customers.
The Civilian Models have been the same way they have been from day 1 as someone else said. No improvements have been made to them, at least not that I've seen, and its been agreed that improvements on them would be welcome. Maybe not a high priority, but certainly welcomed.
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OK, except that in the case you have outlined globeco made that decision when they weren't allowed to stop them. The ethical issue isn't that they stopped the checks (although that is also not really right) but in that they are now trying to falsify information. I think you need to possibly look into ethics a little more before you start trying to debate them.
NC allocating work to a certain area of their business isn't an ethical issue in any way what so ever.
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The Risk statement was in reference to your own post.
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(b)
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would also prevent some monsters getting stuck in walls too,
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Erm how exactly? If anything all it does is increase the likelyhood of new, fresh bugs being introduced with the changes.
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Your argument is that they shouldnt attempt to improve the models or civilians because it increases risk,
My arguement is that Risk is increased if they release more features, and things that rely on those models, if they ever do choose to change them.
Means that when they try to fix the models, they potentially have more to break, where as, if they fix the models early on, before too many things rely on them, then the risk is minimal, and less costly to fix.
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No, my argument is that there's minimal gain to improving models.
"Improving models" is a ridiculously vague idea anyway. Improve what? Textures? Polygon counts? (massive work in those two) City Citizen pathing & AI? (minimal gameplay improvement here)? Enemy Mob AI? (something they are currently tweaking, at least for new bosses & powersets in Architect, because it has a decent gameplay payoff in the new feature) Pet & Henchman AI (a horrible can of worms which makes Castle cry)?
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I think you need to possibly look into ethics a little more before you start trying to debate them.
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Actually, I'd rather not look into ethics more than I have to, its one of those nasty little courses that 'the company' forces employees to do, but no one really likes to do.
Im actually not going to respond to ethics posts now, cause i've already pointed out that I never indicated that ncSoft had made ethically bad moves, I merely pointed out to another member that if they decided to cut corners on quality, to save money, then that could have been an ethically bad move.
To be honest, I think being a quality assurance worker has got me in the mindset to spot quality, and lack of quality.
Thats probably why im having issues accepting the low quality in the city of x civilian population. I've scripted my own Neverwinter Nights Persisntent World Module, and the banter script is alot more believeable than the Civilians that walk around the city of Paragon.
Lets click on Juilian over there..
Julian: "The Time is 14.48."
Lets click on Jenny over there..
Jenny: "The Time is 14.49."
This was just cheap programming, and shouldnt have been done this way.
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Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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Actually, I'd rather not look into ethics more than I have to, its one of those nasty little courses that 'the company' forces employees to do, but no one really likes to do.
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Well, it appears that either:
A) It was a really rubbish course; or
B) You wheren't paying attention.
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I merely pointed out to another member that if they decided to cut corners on quality, to save money, then that could have been an ethically bad move.
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Which would be wrong, unless it put somones lives at risk, or there was an atempt to conceal it.
I really should do something about this signature.
QR
Lets try looking at this another way what would you prefer the devs put there time into.
1) more varied looking civilians on the city streets some of which have disabilities and contacts that have disabilities.
Or
2) the ability to create your own custom mission and factions to fill those mission which is a feature that as far as im aware has never appeared in another MMO and so allows them to re-release the game and get more money in the door so that they can create even better improvements to the game ?
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"Improving models" is a ridiculously vague idea anyway. Improve what? Textures? Polygon counts? (massive work in those two) City Citizen pathing & AI? (minimal gameplay improvement here)? Enemy Mob AI? (something they are currently tweaking, at least for new bosses & powersets in Architect, because it has a decent gameplay payoff in the new feature) Pet & Henchman AI (a horrible can of worms which makes Castle cry)?
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I will admit, you are making good points here, there are other larger things that are being released, but does that really negate the small things?
Pathfinding, and AI - It might be small, but once its improved, thats one thing out of the way, and it improves the environment that the players characters exist in.
Models - It would be a large under taking. But does that negate the benefit it might provide if it resulted in nicer models, textures and maybe even eliminating the stuck in wall bug that many creatures experience. Also making the Models less SOLID would be great. Make civilians stumble, or stop walking or fall down, if they walk into a player or something. At the minute, civilians have the same driving force behind them as a truck, they can push a PB in dwarf form out of the way - I thought I was the one with super strength.
My point is, these things wont get improved, if they dont try.
You say that it would only provide minimal improvement, well, thats more improvement than if they don't fix it.
If I knew it was on their agenda, then I would be happy, but as its been pointed out, Civilian AI and Models have been the same way they've been, for 3+ years. It might not be on their radar at all.
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Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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You say that it would only provide minimal improvement, well, thats more improvement than if they don't fix it.
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No, it's less improvement, because of the big things that don't get improved because some annally retentive dev is fiddling with trivia that 99% of players will ignore anyway.
I really should do something about this signature.
Message effacé par hellking
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Lets try looking at this another way what would you prefer the devs put there time into.
1) more varied looking civilians on the city streets some of which have disabilities and contacts that have disabilities.
Or
2) the ability to create your own custom mission and factions to fill those mission which is a feature that as far as im aware has never appeared in another MMO and so allows them to re-release the game and get more money in the door so that they can create even better improvements to the game ?
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So, your saying they can either fix the 'bad' models on the civilians, and not provide issue 14.
Or
Provide issue 14, and never give us better looking civilians that look, and behave better.
Noting you never said that option 2 could lead to option 1, so Im assuming its one or the other.
I've already said that Issue 14 is going to get me playing for a while, regardless of civilians current lack of quality. However there is no reason for them not to provide both.
Do any of you know whats in Issue 15? Issue 16?
No?
Well, whats wrong with them investigating possible improvements to Models of Civilians (and/or mobs), and better Pathfinding.
Azmodan - 50 - Storm/Energy Blast Defender
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Psi'on - 44 - Kinetics/Psionic Defender
Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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Lets try looking at this another way what would you prefer the devs put there time into.
1) more varied looking civilians on the city streets some of which have disabilities and contacts that have disabilities.
Or
2) the ability to create your own custom mission and factions to fill those mission which is a feature that as far as im aware has never appeared in another MMO and so allows them to re-release the game and get more money in the door so that they can create even better improvements to the game ?
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So, your saying they can either fix the 'bad' models on the civilians, and not provide issue 14.
Or
Provide issue 14, and never give us better looking civilians that look, and behave better.
Noting you never said that option 2 could lead to option 1, so Im assuming its one or the other.
I've already said that Issue 14 is going to get me playing for a while, regardless of civilians current lack of quality. However there is no reason for them not to provide both.
Do any of you know whats in Issue 15? Issue 16?
No?
Well, whats wrong with them investigating possible improvements to Models of Civilians (and/or mobs), and better Pathfinding.
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Nothing, bar the gales of laughter which will greet the Patch Notes when it's announced. Followed by lots and lots of posts along the lines of "FFS, why are they wasting time with this. Fix (PvP || Villains Content || Set X underperforming || Base Raids) instead".
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No, it's less improvement, because of the big things that don't get improved because some annally retentive dev is fiddling with trivia that 99% of players will ignore anyway.
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Thats like saying
"This is a small feature, no one will mind if I dont test it"
If they need more developers to get more done, then hire them.
No improvement they add, will result in the game getting worse.
An improvement, no matter how small, is still an improvement, and as i've said, they have issues 15 all the way to infinity to consider adding Civilian Model enhancements and pathfinding to the list.
So far, im getting the impression, that its acceptable to leave bad things in the game, if they are small.
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Well, it appears that either:
A) It was a really rubbish course; or
B) You wheren't paying attention.
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I think I did well enough since I got 100% in it, so unless you went through the same course, your opinion on the course matters not.
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ummm... is this not a lot of to-ing and fro-ing about a fairly simple suggestion? unless it can be shown to be BAD suggestion, what does anyone have against the idea of wheelchairs in the game? sure, it needs to be prioritised against all the other work going on, as any suggestion would be. and also it would need to be implemented in such a manner as not to break existing game features etc... but isn't all that a given?
i just think, given the scale of the suggestion (and it is a Suggestion forum), the amount of opposition is a little "off the scale", considering this is a cosmetic suggestion.
No?
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Nothing, bar the gales of laughter which will greet the Patch Notes when it's announced. Followed by lots and lots of posts along the lines of "FFS, why are they wasting time with this. Fix (PvP || Villains Content || Set X underperforming || Base Raids) instead".
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Noted - Its ok to leave small things in a bad state, as long as the big things get fixed, then we find more big things to fix, and ignore the small things forever.
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ummm... is this not a lot of to-ing and fro-ing about a fairly simple suggestion? unless it can be shown to be BAD suggestion, what does anyone have against the idea of wheelchairs in the game? sure, it needs to be prioritised against all the other work going on, as any suggestion would be. and also it would need to be implemented in such a manner as not to break existing game features etc... but isn't all that a given?
i just think, given the scale of the suggestion (and it is a Suggestion forum), the amount of opposition is a little "off the scale", considering this is a cosmetic suggestion.
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Sorry Cap,
We are sorta off topic.
We did agree that Wheelchairs are bad idea for players, however we did agree that it might be an acceptable improvement for architect (eg - npc contacts and such)
Now the issue seems to be whether or not civilians and mobs should be allowed to be enhanced to look better, get stuck less in walls, and have better AI and pathfinding.
Which everyone seems to think the answer is NO, because we want PVP fixed.
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Psi'on - 44 - Kinetics/Psionic Defender
Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
right you are, i'll simmer down then. 
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ummm... is this not a lot of to-ing and fro-ing about a fairly simple suggestion? unless it can be shown to be BAD suggestion, what does anyone have against the idea of wheelchairs in the game? sure, it needs to be prioritised against all the other work going on, as any suggestion would be. and also it would need to be implemented in such a manner as not to break existing game features etc... but isn't all that a given?
i just think, given the scale of the suggestion (and it is a Suggestion forum), the amount of opposition is a little "off the scale", considering this is a cosmetic suggestion.
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Sorry Cap,
We are sorta off topic.
We did agree that Wheelchairs are bad idea for players, however we did agree that it might be an acceptable improvement for architect (eg - npc contacts and such)
Now the issue seems to be whether or not civilians and mobs should be allowed to be enhanced to look better, get stuck less in walls, and have better AI and pathfinding.
Which everyone seems to think the answer is NO, because we want PVP fixed.
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No they don't. Learn to read properly.
I'm opposed because of the poor "Development time Spent" vs "Potential gain" ratio. But you seem to be too dim to follow the argument and instead prefer to throw out random Software Development models and weird imaginary Ethical scenarios which have nothing to do with anything.
I was actually being sarcastic when I said
"we" want pvp fixed.
I dont particularly care about pvp, cause at the end of the day, sirens call is a [censored] area that boots you off at inconvenient times if there is over 20 people in the zone.
Why? Cause the server technology the zone is hosted on is really bad.
I tried getting in once on a pvp night that was advertised on the site, and was booted every 5 minutes.
PVP is meaningless if they cant be bothered to get the technology to support it.
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Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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No they don't. Learn to read properly.
I'm opposed because of the poor "Development time Spent" vs "Potential gain" ratio. But you seem to be too dim to follow the argument and instead prefer to throw out random Software Development models
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Yeah, but what your failing to understand is that I am just beyond caring about what you think anymore.
And those "random" development models are industry approved and recognised, and highlight benefit of fixing even small things, early on in a project, if you dont mind the small things in city of heroes remaining dull, and dreary, and talking clock npc's, then by all means, wait in line for the next update that shaves 0.3 seconds of a power activation time.
Azmodan - 50 - Storm/Energy Blast Defender
Baaleos - 50 - Gravity/Power Blast Dominator
Orici - 50 - Fortunata
Psi'on - 44 - Kinetics/Psionic Defender
Azazeel - 40 - Warshade
Bloody-Ice - 31 - Ice/Cold Domination Corruptor
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Lets try looking at this another way what would you prefer the devs put there time into.
1) more varied looking civilians on the city streets some of which have disabilities and contacts that have disabilities.
Or
2) the ability to create your own custom mission and factions to fill those mission which is a feature that as far as im aware has never appeared in another MMO and so allows them to re-release the game and get more money in the door so that they can create even better improvements to the game ?
[/ QUOTE ]
So, your saying they can either fix the 'bad' models on the civilians, and not provide issue 14.
Or
Provide issue 14, and never give us better looking civilians that look, and behave better.
Noting you never said that option 2 could lead to option 1, so Im assuming its one or the other.
I've already said that Issue 14 is going to get me playing for a while, regardless of civilians current lack of quality. However there is no reason for them not to provide both.
Do any of you know whats in Issue 15? Issue 16?
No?
Well, whats wrong with them investigating possible improvements to Models of Civilians (and/or mobs), and better Pathfinding.
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Basically yes big game inprovments such as architect are allways going to take priorety over small QOL inprovments as big game inprovments is what keeps the player base happy now if small inprovments happen thanks to those big inprovments thats a good thing but its not a major thing.
as for i15 and i16
i15 is probably well on the eay to compleasion if not compleat and just waiting for i14 to launch i16 is most likely polanned and possible started its inportant to remember that the dev teams work 2 issues ahead so when i12 launched i13 and i14 were in development when it transpired that MA wasent going to be ready for i13 launch they launched 13 without MA and made MA i14 old 14 is now 15 and old 15 is now 16 so theres a good chance that the devs are curently well into the planning of 17 or atleast have a fair idea of what they wish to include.
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ummm... is this not a lot of to-ing and fro-ing about a fairly simple suggestion? unless it can be shown to be BAD suggestion, what does anyone have against the idea of wheelchairs in the game? sure, it needs to be prioritised against all the other work going on, as any suggestion would be. and also it would need to be implemented in such a manner as not to break existing game features etc... but isn't all that a given?
i just think, given the scale of the suggestion (and it is a Suggestion forum), the amount of opposition is a little "off the scale", considering this is a cosmetic suggestion.
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Sorry Cap,
We are sorta off topic.
We did agree that Wheelchairs are bad idea for players, however we did agree that it might be an acceptable improvement for architect (eg - npc contacts and such)
Now the issue seems to be whether or not civilians and mobs should be allowed to be enhanced to look better, get stuck less in walls, and have better AI and pathfinding.
Which everyone seems to think the answer is NO, because we want PVP fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
No they don't. Learn to read properly.
I'm opposed because of the poor "Development time Spent" vs "Potential gain" ratio. But you seem to be too dim to follow the argument and instead prefer to throw out random Software Development models and weird imaginary Ethical scenarios which have nothing to do with anything.
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Carnifax, as a suggestion, the idea has merit. and it is a suggestion, just that. not a proposal for an ill concieved project plan. we're not even talking about a huge change (from the players point of view). who are we, and you, to decide what the actual "ratio" of development time to "benefit" is? i certainly dont have any visibility of the developers day to day schedules! This is a suggestion forum, where players should feel free to make "suggestions", and not have to defend them with high minded philosophical arguments or cost-to-benefit spreadsheets.
i may be missing something myself here in this whole debate but where does all this "heat" come from? its not as if we are discussing a game imbalance that hinders play or enjoyment here.
surely there are other topics in this forum that deserve a more rigourous "kick up the proverbial" than this one?
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If they need more developers to get more done, then hire them.
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What with? the game is struggling to break even as is. there is no spare cash to employ devs to work on trivia.
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An improvement, no matter how small, is still an improvement,
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Resources are LIMITED.
That means that any improvement in one area of the game means that another area of the game has to be neglected.
Better to focus what resources you have on high profile areas than waste them on something that people don't pay a lot of attention to.
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So far, im getting the impression, that its acceptable to leave bad things in the game, if they are small.
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It's a nessassary evil. Fixing everything requites infinite resourses, so if games had to be bug free, it would mean no more computer games ever.
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I think I did well enough since I got 100% in it, so unless you went through the same course, your opinion on the course matters not.
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Must have been a rubbish course then, since you would expect that someone who got 100% in an ethics course would know what ethics was, but apparently not.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Its clearly not one of their priorities, since the models have been the same way, for years, and no announcements have been made to change them in anyway.
In fact, releasing more things that depend on the current model types and AI only increases their reliance on them, and in the end, increases RISK.
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Risk of what exactly?
Them achieving sentience and overthrowing Statesman and Lord Recluse and hunting Heroes and Villains like dogs (actually that'd be pretty cool).
In my experience there's much more risk in changing code compared to leaving older working code alone. I can't imagine any example where there's a risk in leaving code as-is as oppose to changing it into something newer / shinier.