57 Month Veteran Reward: Abiding
By
Alvan,
Posted on: 2009-01-20 17:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Hmmm
Half and half, seems a bit weak in comparison to some of the better ones, but will be useful on newer toons I guess that won't have as many tokens to use.
Perhaps more though should have gone in to the order that you get things, not giving the really good stuff, like wings, trenchcoats etc quite so early?
We built this city on Rock and Roll!
I'm hoping Robbie that they do call it a day at the five year mark, then go "right...we're switching it all around, instead of a set reward every 3 months, you get a reward of your choice at each 3 month mark out of certain pool..." as you said.
where we have a costume reward now, that time on your account would reward from the costume pool (so at three months you can pick wings instead of trenchcoats for example) when we have a power choice reward you get to pick from the power pool (Base teleport, Sands of Mu/Ghostslaying Axe, Nemesis Staff/Black Wand, non-combat pets, buff pets etc.)
That way each person can tailor their vet rewards personally to them and then everybody wins IMO.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
Good grief, I hate to even think how much moaning and account canceling if they had added trenchcoats and then made players wait four years forthem!
I really should do something about this signature.
I still like the idea of Veteran Tokens that you can use to buy the rewards you want.
I'm not adverse to the Vet Reward, but it seems redundant as I can do 10 complete costume changes for every character I create for free. Now, a 50% reduction in all NPC store costs I could get my teeth into.
As to where I got the info from, I got it off the badge I was awarded when I logged in today.
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Hmmm
Half and half, seems a bit weak in comparison to some of the better ones, but will be useful on newer toons I guess that won't have as many tokens to use.
Perhaps more though should have gone in to the order that you get things, not giving the really good stuff, like wings, trenchcoats etc quite so early?
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But new toons get access to ALL the costume change tokens available at vet rewards at creation. So they will have as many as a toon that hasn't used any.
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Good grief, I hate to even think how much moaning and account canceling if they had added trenchcoats and then made players wait four years forthem!
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With the pick from a pool option you don't have to wait 4 years for trenchcoats, you can pick them at 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, 15 months, 18 months and so on...
At 12 months, 24 months, 33 months, 36 months and so on you get your choice of perma-temp powers be it the non-combat pets, Sands of Mu/Ghost Slaying Axe etc.
Basically it's up to the player when they get which reward they want.
The problem with the vet reward tokens has already been mentioned, once the player has all the good rewards it reduces the time subscribed but then sticking to the current system doesn't help either...people wouldn't be willing to wait for 39 months if they really wanted the boxing outfit, it isn't something they see getting so it might as well not exist to them.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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but it seems redundant
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It's not redundant, the purpose of poor VRs is to space out the good VRs.
I really should do something about this signature.
Also I believe all the reason that, bar the Greek alphabet letter chest detail reward (which I think is naff...you opinon may vary) it gets the new players hooked, which is why everything up until the 18 month period, excluding the above example, is pretty nice stuff...after 18 months the devs know you'll probably be sticking around for the long haul.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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At 12 months, 24 months, 33 months, 36 months and so on you get your choice of perma-temp powers be it the non-combat pets, Sands of Mu/Ghost Slaying Axe etc.
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Yes, and after you have all those there is nothing good left to take (unless the devs divert a lot of thier effort from the rest of the game) VRs no longer serve thier purpose to keep you subscribing.
What is so difficult to understand about that?!
Pool system = good from the players POV, but very very bad from the devs POV.
I really should do something about this signature.
The only vet reward i was happy to get was me ickle pet demon 
Now for the blue wisp!!!
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Think of it from the other side of the coin PRAF.
The rewards where they are, aren't exactly going to encourage people to keep subscribed either...say a newbie really wants that boxing outfit choice and sees that it's now 39 months away...he's probably going to go 'Screw that, what's the point, I'm not sure I'm even going to be playing this game in 39 months'.
Tada...same effect, different system.
Edit: Lets be honest PRAF, do you see the game still running five years from now? Yes Everquest is still going but it really is bare-bones numbers, a new person joining isn't sure if they game will still be around in five years time to collect their five year reward.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
But if the 39 month reward is not something the player wants, but there is a later reward that they did want, it would keep them subscribing.
The alternative would be give out VRs at the rate of 1 every nine months, thats about the only rate they could put out enough good rewards.
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Lets be honest PRAF, do you see the game still running five years from now?
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No, no I don't. Which is another good reason not to give out good rewards for four-five years: players starting now are unlikely ever to have the oportunity to earn them.
I really should do something about this signature.
But they wouldn't keep subscribed because they would think it would be too damn far away to actually foresee themselves getting it in the future, they would more than likely see it as something too far off in such a time frame.
Edit: People are fairly impatient creatures, waiting six months for something, sure, waiting even a year for it, sure but if they have to wait, lets say four years for something, it may as well not exist to them.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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Lets be totally honest, All the best Vet Rewards have already been put in. Anything extra is good enough for me, not gonna lose my cool because of it being this.
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^This. It's free. I'mma not complaining.
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Gotta love dem dere RolePlayers
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Pool system = good from the players POV, but very very bad from the devs POV.
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I disagree.
Your argument about the current system is entirely dependent on there being something in the future rewards that's good enough for the player to want but not so far away as to not be an incentive. Otherwise, there's no incentive. In practice, as the period covered gets longer it becomes impossible to do. It's bad from both the players' and the devs' POV.
Whereas with a pool system, so long as there is anything left in the pools a player wants, there's an incentive. What's more, with a pool system, a great reward could be added now without the problem of it being effectively unobtainable for new players, so it's much easier to ensure there's usually something people want. The number of rewards would also not necessarily be limited to how long the game has been around. Good for the players, easier for the devs to keep an incentive, so good for the devs too.
Whilst I mostly agree with your post, PRAF, a couple of comments:
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No, I'm sure the devs thought of it.
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And if they didn't then it's already been discussed at length in Suggestions (though it was a while ago, possibly 18+ months back). If we're to believe the mods then this idea, if deemed to have merit, would have been brought to the attention of the devs even if they hadn't thought of it independently.
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What the devs see, that a lot of the playerbase seem to miss, is if they don't keep filling up the pool with good rewards, then after players have the ones they want the VRs become effectively useless for keeping players subcribed.
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Not really certain that the vets rewards have ever really been about customer retention/loyalty. Prior to vets rewards it was known that CoX has an incredibly loyal base compared to most MMOs, with subscribers staying longer than average.
Nothing (like the vets rewards) really needed to be done to keep subscribers subscribing! Lets face it, if someone's been with game for 2 years and now decides that they want to leave they probably won't keep shelling out hard earned cash for any of the vets rewards.
I think, rather than customer loyalty scheme, the rewards are more like a few shiny, trinkets to say thanks. Heck - if they really were a proper customer loyalty scheme then I'd expect them to announce the rewards at least a year in advance of them being needed - i.e. we'd have heard about the 60 month reward early last year.
As they stand they are already effectively useless for keeping players subcribed.
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There is a reason developers are developers, and that is not because they are to stupid to be players.
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Too many players seem to believe the opposite, yet enjoy the game... odd how people can be smart enough to design and implement a good game but obviously dumb as hell past that! 
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
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No, I'm sure the devs thought of it.
What the devs see, that a lot of the playerbase seem to miss, is if they don't keep filling up the pool with good rewards, then after players have the ones they want the VRs become effectively useless for keeping players subcribed. And keeping coming up with, creating and implementing good VRs that won't be game unbalancing would take a pretty significant fraction of developer time.
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Wrong.
If that was true then they only have to read the suggestion forums.
Plenty of great ideas there that give the players what they want and we don't see them implemented.
You're looking at this from a technical point of view when it's a emotional thing.
your basic premise is borked. Vet rewards are all about keeping players in the game and the Devs have sadly run right out of ideas... so I do hope they kill this off as soon as possible to save more whinging from players and embarrasment. What they are doing is implementing stuff with no concept of marketing.
If you're correct then nobody would have to wait 15 months for Wings, and everyone would love the greek letters
You're discounting one very important point: The Dedicated CoX player is actually pretty discerning and if you give them a great big steaming dogpile as a reward, it don't matter how well you polish it, it's still a great big steaming dogpile.
Better to draw a line under it and not give anything.
Thelonious Monk
Considering how much i spend in icon, this will be a godsend 
five months to icon discount!
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Pool system = good from the players POV, but very very bad from the devs POV.
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I disagree.
Your argument about the current system is entirely dependent on there being something in the future rewards that's good enough for the player to want but not so far away as to not be an incentive. Otherwise, there's no incentive. In practice, as the period covered gets longer it becomes impossible to do. It's bad from both the players' and the devs' POV.
Whereas with a pool system, so long as there is anything left in the pools a player wants, there's an incentive. What's more, with a pool system, a great reward could be added now without the problem of it being effectively unobtainable for new players, so it's much easier to ensure there's usually something people want. The number of rewards would also not necessarily be limited to how long the game has been around. Good for the players, easier for the devs to keep an incentive, so good for the devs too.
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If the vets rewards are to truly be an incentive then the pool system (with an extended pool of rewards to pick from) makes far more sense.
Let Sexy J run wild and create 20 new costume pieces/sets - not everyone need like each one, but the fashion pixies (who get incentivised by new clothing) can pick a new costume every 3 months...
What about the prestige sprints? Could a similar pack be done for other powers? Could they do packs of prestige flight/jump or even just prestige brawls? Nothing differently-powered, but a little gfx pizzazz for those that get incentivised by that...
Heck - do 6 different non-combat pets as 6 possible rewards (guessing that 6 out at once for a single character wouldn't strain clients more than a MMs henchmen).
Plenty of ideas you could do with little in-game effect, that I'd hope wouldn't take too much resource to do, but could act as incentives to different people depending upon their individual tastes.
That's the key - individual tastes mean that some people will look at their upcoming rewards and find nothing that appeals to them. That's why the scheme doesn't really work as an incentive scheme IMO, but also why I don't think it's really meant to.
If it's not meant to be an incentive/loyalty scheme to keep subscribers, then it's absolutely fine as is!
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
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Edit: People are fairly impatient creatures, waiting six months for something, sure, waiting even a year for it, sure but if they have to wait, lets say four years for something, it may as well not exist to them.
[/ QUOTE ]Having only just recently gotten Sands of Mu myself, I weep when I look at the time remaining until I get those freaking Arachnos Helmets. 
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And if they didn't then it's already been discussed at length in Suggestions (though it was a while ago, possibly 18+ months back).
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Heck, it was suggested before the rewards scheme was even introduced.
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I think, rather than customer loyalty scheme, the rewards are more like a few shiny, trinkets to say thanks. Heck - if they really were a proper customer loyalty scheme then I'd expect them to announce the rewards at least a year in advance of them being needed - i.e. we'd have heard about the 60 month reward early last year.
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Nah. The promise of a gift, even if you don't know what it is, is still an incentive. Sometimes even more so for not knowing what it is.
It certainly is a proper customer loyalty scheme. It's just not a very good one.
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As they stand they are already effectively useless for keeping players subcribed.
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No argument there.
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"For 57 Months spent in the City of Villains you will receive a 50% discount on all tailor costs"
Really? That's what I get? Well I'll get right to that discount after I use my 10 Veteran Costume tokens and other costume tokens you get thrown along the way!
Feels a little weak, really 
Still, guess it could have been worse!
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I'll be honest. Its been a long time since the Veteran award scheme set my world on fire.
50% off at Icon? - Master Zaprobo has summed it up nicely I think.
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but it seems redundant
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It's not redundant, the purpose of poor VRs is to space out the good VRs.
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And rumour has it (and also by that logic) that the 60 month vet reward will be Legend... wait for it...
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but it seems redundant
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It's not redundant, the purpose of poor VRs is to space out the good VRs.
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And rumour has it (and also by that logic) that the 60 month vet reward will be Legend... wait for it...
[/ QUOTE ]The last of the four veteran attacks that you haven't picked yet.
No, I'm sure the devs thought of it.
What the devs see, that a lot of the playerbase seem to miss, is if they don't keep filling up the pool with good rewards, then after players have the ones they want the VRs become effectively useless for keeping players subcribed. And keeping coming up with, creating and implementing good VRs that won't be game unbalancing would take a pretty significant fraction of developer time.
There is a reason developers are developers, and that is not because they are to stupid to be players.
I really should do something about this signature.