Time to Rework the HEAT.
By
Baby_Phoenix,
Posted on: 2008-08-01 20:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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PB's have got a decent single target heal too if i remember rightly.
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Mine hasn't. I was just comparing my own builds.
I really should do something about this signature.
Dont forget that pb/ws have been around alot longer than the villain epics so of course they are going to be better, that said i still would rather play my pb over a villain epic.
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S'funny... My PB (a triform) is pretty much a mini-tankmage and kicks the <bleep> out of anything stupid enough to get in her way. Solo she kicks bum; teamed, with the correct team makeup, she shreds everything and can even face down an AV whilst the rest of the team recovers.
Whenever there's a Rikti raid, I have NEVER been faceplanted, yet I've seen tanks, blasters, trollers, the lot, get taken out. Mainly because they don't have access to the mixture of resistance, damage and heals Khelds do. They key is to know when to backup, shift form, and go back in. It only takes a couple of seconds, and then you're back in the action. With the right team, I don't even worry about getting my shields up right away, and since the quantum nerf, I don't even have to worry about them either.
You're making the mistake of comparing Khelds with regular AT's. A common mistake because you CAN'T really compare them. They're not like ANY other AT in the game and require actual tactics to play successfully. OK, so they can't buff team mates; but neither can many other AT's, so that point really isn't that relevant.
Ravenswing is right in that the title of "epic AT" really isn't appropriate. They're an advanced AT, that puts CoH into "hard" mode and require a lot more thought than your regular button mashing techniques. For me, they are my most favourite of AT, way above any of the others.
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This...
Having got a Tri-Form Warshade to 50 and a Human-Form Peacebringer to 33 (So far) I have to say they're an awful lot of fun to play, however they are not easy to play! I've gone thought STF, Eden (Repeatedly) and most of the other TF's with my WS and can't really say I've had any issues. I certainly don't find them particularly weak!
Like others have already pointed out, they're not 'Epic.' That really is a misleading title. They're CoH on hard mode. If I'm fully concentrating and playing my WS then he's stupidly powerful and can easily solo 8 man mobs. If i'm not fully switched on then I won't play him as I'll just die lots, it's as simple as that!
I'll admit I haven't played my villain 'Epics' very much yet but from what I've seen they just don't compare. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they're just different. It's like comparing Scrappers and Corruptors, it just don't work.
Though I do accept one comment that the OP made. I do agree that the devs have put more thought into the VEATs than the HEATs but only for the reason that they've had longer to come up with ideas for them. I wouldn't complain if the HEAT's got a bit of buffage but I also wouldn't complain if they don't. Any AT that allows me to have 2 x Buildup, go Unstoppable, nova a mob, get a pet, Aoe the survivors and repeat the whole thing 2 minutes later! is good for me 
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TBH, I think the ONLY buff Kheldians could do with, is to make Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance work in forms. It's conceptually silly for their inherent ability to cease working just because they change form, especially as it's only an energy based copy of the real thing. They STILL remain Kheldians, so their inherent should still function.
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I cant speak for Peacebringers, Banes, Night Widows or Fortunatas. What I do have is a Level 50 Warshade (tri-form double-mire build) and a Level 50 Crab Spider (focused on area damage & with 6 pets) - and I think they can be compared directly, seeing as theyre the most AE-heavy HEAT and the most AE-heavy VEAT. Ill compare both at L50:
Survivability - Warshade wins easily, even without taking Dwarf into account, because of Eclipse. Sure, the Crab has good resists and great defence, and Serum (Dull Pain basically), but my Crab doesnt do so well taking the alpha of a 20-strong hazard/TF spawn (sometimes survives, sometimes dies - defence isnt as reliable as resists), while with my Warshade I dont even hesitate and can guarantee surviving it (and without Dwarf - an Eclipsed Nova is harder to defeat than most archetypes ever get to be). For small spawns you might think the Crab has an advantage as the Warshade needs big spawns to Eclipse/Mire off, but my Warshade can almost cap all of his resists at 85% off 4 mobs hit and CAN cap them all off 5 mobs hit, and eclipse is near to being perma on him.
Mez protection - Crab wins if the Warshade isnt in dwarf. Being mezzed is very annoying for the Warshade and is pretty much the only thing that can stop an Eclipsed warshade. This is the main category where Crab beats Warshade tbh.
AE damage - For burst damage the Warshade wins easily after miring twice as in nova it can wipe out a TF-size spawn on its own in a few attacks. Miring takes time though, especially if you need to Eclipse as well, so the Crab is ahead over the first 5 seconds (though Omega Maneuver takes 5secs to go in, if using that), but then Crab attacks do take ages to animate/recharge compared to Warshade nova. AE dps I think is broadly similar on both if the Warshade doesnt use mire - my Crab has an attack chain purely of AE/cone/PBAE attacks, but then my Warshade nova has so much +rchg so does he.
ST damage - Warshade wins, as the Crabs single target damage isnt that good. Sure, theyre both working off just 2 single target attacks at range (assuming Warshade in nova), but the Warshade ones recharge faster, animate faster and dps is much better taking Mires into account. My Crab had to pick up a single target attack from a PPP to have a gap-less single target chain and all attacks animate slowly.
Control - Warshade wins, as my Crab really has no control beyond its pets
Debuffing - tempting to say the Crab wins because of the -res on Venom Grenade, but the Warshade can stack a ton of -spd -rchg just using attacks (not that it usually matters - most things die so fast).
Pets - my Crab gets 6 pets that do some nice control but not much damage and can only be up 1/3-1/2 of the time, while my Warshade can have 2-3 pets out all the time that do massive damage. Warshade wins.
Buffing - Crab wins, as the Warshade has no buffs but my Crab has both TT:Maneuvers and TT:Assault.
Downtime - my Crab had major end issues until I got expensive IO sets slotted into him nearer L50. My Warshade had zero end issues after getting Stygian Circle at L22. Warshade wins.
Panic button - the Warshade doesnt really need one once mired up and eclipsed, but there is always Dwarf. The Crab has Serum, but thats about it as Omega Maneuver takes too long to explode to be a panic button like the nukes of other ATs and the taunt it has is too weak to work as anything but an alpha-taker (its main purpose). Warshade wins.
Flexibility - Warshade can play controller, tanker or blaster - sure, I dont have that much control, the tanking is only useful on single targets (I only really use dwarf on AV/GM fights and its fine for that, because single target taunting and damage-taking is all that Black Dwarf is really good for), but for blasting my Warshade can easily keep up with my blasters/corruptors/Crab on dps and even outdo them (though my Blaster wins on burst, as it should with BU+Aim+RainOfArrows). Crab can do area damage and buff the team just by standing around, but can only really tank stuff at range and even then cant hold aggro that well. The only role the Crab can really fill on a team is area damage with some minor buffing on the side. Warshade wins I think.
Weaknesses - sure, Warshade is weak to being mezzed in nova/human forms, but Voids/Quants arent the danger they used to be and cysts are only a minor annoyance for a good team. My Crab Spider is weak to being meleed to death when he gets swarmed by all the mobs that his AEs annoy, because his melee def isnt capped like his ranged def. I think the Warshade weaknesses are slightly more annoying, but on the whole theres parity here - every archetypes needs a weakness.
Builds - Warshade build was short on slots but I had so many free power choices I took both SS & SJ and tons of other utility stuff as well. The Crab build I wanted was so short on power choices that I had to skip taking a travel power (I got by with CJ + 2-slotted Hurdle) and also couldnt fit Hasten in, but wasnt particularly tight on slots. Parity, I think, though I really wish VEATs had got inherent travel powers like HEATs as it does make a big difference, especially at low level.
Personally I think both are fine relatively - majorly buffing either would make them too powerful compared to other ATs. I admit, Id like to see nova form getting at least mag2 protection to hold/sleep/stun just to cut out those brief annoyance mezzes that do nothing except toggle drop (and I guess human form toggles could each have mag1 to hold/sleep/stun too) - Id also like to see Crabs getting slightly more damage (20% would do) so that such an AE-focused build compared better on burst/dps to my Warshade, Archery Blaster and Fire Corruptor, but then the latter two dont have the Crabs survivability (well the blaster does if it uses PFF/FoN actually).
I think shapeshift time for Kheldians should be instant too - just to cut down how long it takes to shift between multiple forms when miring and to mitigate some of the annoyance and time lost of having to switch back into nova after being mezzed.
So basically I think Warshades are fine compared to Crabs. Maybe Peacebringer needs a major buff (Im not going to play one, simply because it cant almost permanently self-cap ToHit, Damage and Resists like my Warshade can), but Warshade doesnt. Players who say Warshades are weak either dont have a double-mire build, dont like that playstyle, or havent levelled enough.
I cannot compare either at high level as I found the HEATs very much of a 'Meh' to play and did not enjoy the levelling journey at all. I am hoping the VEATs will better suit my play style when I eventually get Harlequin to 50. I suspect the HEATs require a little more finesse and thought to be fully enjoyed and I definitely more suit the 'Smack it and See' style of AT!
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Im not entirely convinced that the HEATs need looking at tho if the devs were to take a look ta them id like ti see them further diversify and make a bigger difference between WS and PB at the moment there largely copies of eatch other with a few power changes that allow them to perform marginally different rolls in a team Blaster/scrapper/defender/tank for a PB and Blaster/tank/troller for the WS i would like the devs to take them further into these rolls especially the warshades controller like ten dances there present but not really there i would love to see them become more controller ish maybe at the cost o some of there blast attacks in human form
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I cannot compare either at high level as I found the HEATs very much of a 'Meh' to play and did not enjoy the levelling journey at all. I am hoping the VEATs will better suit my play style when I eventually get Harlequin to 50. I suspect the HEATs require a little more finesse and thought to be fully enjoyed and I definitely more suit the 'Smack it and See' style of AT!
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Well apart from not having Eclipse and the pets, more or less the whole playstyle of my Warshade was nailed down by L22 (having both Mires, nova form and Stygian Circle by then) and at L6 in particular it felt more powerful than anything else at that level I've played. My Crab wasn't even a Crab at L22 and I really didn't enjoy the first 24 levels of that VEAT (being just a weak AR blaster with sub-blaster damage and weak buffs/armour).
Oh another "win" to the Warshade I forgot to list (though possibly it's personal preference) is the epic story arcs/missions. The HEATs at least get a full story arc every 5 levels until 50 and it's a good story, while VEATs sometimes just get 1 mission every 5 levels (just occasionally an arc of a few missions, early on) and the story was rather weak imho and not really epic at all - but then I am getting rather sick of all that Destined One stuff.
My two-pennorth:
"Epic" does not mean "More Powerful"
"Easier to play" does not mean "More Powerful"
VEATs are easier to play than HEATs (especially at lower levels), but that doesn't make them "better".
One point that did make my .. er.. (whatever the visual equivalent of ears pricking up is) was "PuGs tend to prefer blasters 'cos they want more damage" - I'm not sure that's entirely the fault of the AT, but more the misconception and pigeon holing that ignorant players put them in to.
I have a lvl 50 PB, and it's one of those toons that I really have to be in the mood to play - as FFM rightly says, to get the best out of it requires an entirely different approach to the normal "mash buttons when they recharge" that you can get away with on most other toons.
Some of the PB powers could probably do with looking at and tweaking, but I wouldn't say that as an AT, Kheldians are entirely broken.
Edit: One after thought; I wonder if the fact that VEATs are easier to play than HEATs is really just a natural progression of generally making the game easier to play. We've had the XP and debt modifications to make levelling easier, The Hollows has been revamped to make it easier, Quantum damage has been nerfed to oblivion to make playing Khelds easier.. maybe VEATs are just another notch in the "dumbing down" of Co* ?
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Come on, people - onto the 4th page, and no one's said "if you can't stand the HEAT, get out fo the kitchen"? 
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TBH, I think the ONLY buff Kheldians could do with, is to make Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance work in forms. It's conceptually silly for their inherent ability to cease working just because they change form, especially as it's only an energy based copy of the real thing. They STILL remain Kheldians, so their inherent should still function.
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And *please* give some degree of buff for teaming with other Kheldians; all Kheldian teams are worse off than teams with only one or two Kheldians because of it.
By comparison, our current SG VEAT team (5 Crab Spiders, 1 Widow & 1 Dominator) is nigh-indestructible, can face down +8 (Yes, +8, though it took about 10 minutes to take him down) bosses without fear and can easily wipe out a 7-man spawn of+3 mobs with its alpha. Hell, we've started massing Mayhem mission ambushes to give ourselves a real challenge.
I want to be able to team my Warshade with other Kheldians without feeling like we're missing out by not having any other ATs involved.
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Come on, people - onto the 4th page, and no one's said "if you can't stand the HEAT, get out fo the kitchen"?
[/ QUOTE ]4th im still on the 1st page i got 50 a page
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I have a lvl 50 PB, and it's one of those toons that I really have to be in the mood to play - as FFM rightly says, to get the best out of it requires an entirely different approach to the normal "mash buttons when they recharge" that you can get away with on most other toons.
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For me this extends to most of my L50s - I have to be in the mood to play them.
Mashing buttons can work for brutes/scrappers if you're feeling lazy, but I disagree you can get away with that on most archetypes unless you're in such a good team that you're steamrollering the content (but even then you'd be setting yourself up as one of the least productive members). Most of the squishier and/or team-supporting archetypes (i.e. not just damage dealers) need to be more alert to the repercussions of their actions than brutes/scrappers, with greater situational awareness and/or active defence (i.e. controlling/debuffing foes & moderating aggro).
If we're talking about complexity of play then I find that my Mind/Psi Dominator requires much much more thought to play than my Warshade (if I want to survive every fight, anyway). Ok, I have a good keybind set-up on the Warshade which probably helps, but in terms of tactical complexity I'd put him on par with my Stalkers/Blasters or Corruptors, as most of my characters in those archetypes have a certain way they begin most fights - debuffs in a certain order before attacking for the corruptors, or an optimal opening attack chain to maximise burst damage under Build Up for stalkers/blasters - similarly my Warshade begins most fights with eclipse/mires before shifting to nova to attack - sure, it's not rocket science, but it's hardly mashing buttons either, unless you define all videogames as basically mashing buttons (though I guess that is somewhat true...).
But sure the Crab Spider is easier to play than most archetypes for me, so I agree with you there - I had a lot less tactical choices with it than with any other ranged archetype I play - mashing buttons could pretty much work on it. I can't speak definitively for the other VEATs yet as I haven't played them to a reasonable level, but the Fortunata seems quite Dominator-like so I'm sure it's more complex to play than a Crab, Bane seems Stalker-like so probably on par with Warshade for me, though Night Widow looks Scrapper-like so maybe simple button-mashing can work there /shrug.
Oh, my PB is actually very easy to play. It's the build which is difficult to get right - it is packed full of pitfalls to trap unwary players.
For example, taking nova form on a PB is basically gimping yourself. Also, there are loads of attacks, but if you take more than a few of them you wont be able to slot them properly and will also be gimping yourself.
I really should do something about this signature.
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And *please* give some degree of buff for teaming with other Kheldians; all Kheldian teams are worse off than teams with only one or two Kheldians because of it.
By comparison, our current SG VEAT team (5 Crab Spiders, 1 Widow & 1 Dominator) is nigh-indestructible
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I think you've hit the nail on the head, my friend. SoA stack much better than multiple Kheldians in teams - I've joined the SoA Night of one of my SGs and we're in serious danger of out-leveling content. Certainly any 8-person Villains team made up of 4 SoA with any two of the Tactical buffs active each will work excellently with any other combination of villains ATs.
Rather than considering Kheldians 'jack of all trades' I would call them wildcards, capable of fulfilling two or three roles in a team depending on build. I think the sheer flexibility of a Kheldian is as valuable as the team buffs of a SoA, having levelled a triform PB to 50 and compared the experience against teaming with my lvl 36 Crab Spider and teaming as other toons in teams with one or more SoA. But as Spad rightly points out SoA are better in numbers than Kheldians.
Although, if you think about it, the villain epics are soldiers - wouldn't it make sense thematically that they team with each other naturally?
On the otherhand with the Great Storm coming and at least the Kheldians facing a fairly grim fate - maybe now is the time to retouch their inherents (bonuses for other Kheldians as well as non-epic ATs) and backgrounds as an organised military force? It would certainly make for interesting metaplot if nothing else.
Personally i never could get into the Kheldians. While i applaud their uniqueness with the diffrent forms and such. I think my personal beef is it takes over my char too much. I could make a buck nekkid cossie and noone would prob see me naked cause i always got some bubbles around me, creepy glowing eyes or transformed into some sort of seafood.
Also feel i didn't bring anything to the team. Average Damage, some sort of control, poor tanking, but not all at once.
hmmm dare I dive into this argument?
well maybe
agree with lots been said abt HEAT so far:
(1) advanced AT, not epic - cos they need some gettin used to to play
(2) need to be in right mood to play - definately. when I dont; its a real pain to play one right. the triform WS has got to be fav though.
(3) adaptability - no point comparing kheldian to any1 hero AT - cos its meant to the a jack of all trades. thats wot i like abt the AT; that ur tactics modify with team u are in (maybe not a def - although I did take heal self/other on mine)
(4) does HEAT need re-working - yes. Would prefer to have access to pool powers in all forms and better mez protect.
(5) are they epic - once played on a newbie team in hollowsw with my WS - half way thorugh 1st mish, leader said; "i thought u would be able to kill everything with a single shot - u arent really EPIC are you?" - refer to point 1
My VEATS are only mid 20's late teens atm - so not really got much experience with em - except high level teaming. And yes they do look very impressive in terms of survivability. But they also look a little more str8 forward to play. But on the whole - that seems to be the way with Villainous ATs - more attacks, faster game, more hybrid ATs rather than super specialists.
as for sitting through levelling a HEAT - i took a long time to play through mine. Mainly cos I have mentality to play trollers and tanks mostly - but it was well worth it in the end. And the journey, though slower, was truly EPIC.
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A small buff, maybe, but no rework. They're a hard AT to master, and they could use a little love, but just because the VEAT is out doesn't suddenly make them useless.
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actually they need a SIGNIFICANT rework to make them commercially viable in game which is what the bottom line is. You may be happy where they are now but the vast majority of players are not. The old "not everyone has a lvl 50" is true but the majority of people do but the mahority of people do not play khelds, they are the least played AT in the game, this is fact and verified by the devs. If people dont play them then they are a waste of code, its lunacy to have a "niche" AT in any MMO, they all need to appeal to a certain amount or they will get changed. A small buff WONT get them being played which is the developers aim, they DONT want a "elitist" AT.
The reason they have not been changed so far is a catch 22, not that many people play them so we can work on things for the majority but not that many people play them because of how they are set up, and with the exception of the lunatic -30% res that khelds had solo back in i3 they havent changed while the whole game, and all other ATs, has changed around them. They herald from the days when unyeilding rooted you and teletanking was considered an exploit, armours being mutually exclusive so you had to chose which on you would use before moving in, elude being a weak form of phase shift and so on. All Ats were "advanced" back then but the game has changed and so are khelds going to....just very late.
The investment in time and delvelopment of khelds has been made, time has been allocated to their redevelopment (see here http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....ue#Post11315481 ) and I have no doubt they will be made into a more commecially viable entity (ie a better proportion of people will play them) My guess, a reduction in the resistences of the human sheilds, a small amount of defence added, mez protection split across the sheilds ala fire armour, base damage increase and cosmic balance altered to reduce self buffs and start to grant team mates some.
Fact is kheld changes are a-coming and Im looking forward to them
(and yes I know people do play them, like them as is and can do a great job but its a waste of an AT if its enjoyed by the few and not the many)
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Fact is kheld changes are a-coming and Im looking forward to them
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Link, plx!
As far as Positron is concerned EATs are not commercially viable. Full stop. He isn't going to alocate time for a major rework. And there is no major rework that would make keldians significantly more popular anyway, unless you throw out the Jack of all Trades master of none concept completly, and have them specialise in something: I.e. delete them and replace with a completly different HEAT.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Personally i never could get into the Kheldians. While i applaud their uniqueness with the diffrent forms and such. I think my personal beef is it takes over my char too much. I could make a buck nekkid cossie and noone would prob see me naked cause i always got some bubbles around me, creepy glowing eyes or transformed into some sort of seafood.
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That's valid, but personally I liked being able to play a non-humanoid character (not something available in most MMOs) as a squid, with lots of tactics not available to most other archetypes. And I didn't feel a lack of individuality because there aren't that many HEATs around
My Warshade felt epic in that it felt different to play compared to other archetypes because of the shapeshifting and because it was a floating blaster that could transform into a makeshift tanker or controller as needed - that opened up tons of additional tactics. My Crab Spider on the other hand just felt like a Blaster that had traded some of its damage and self-buffs/melee ability away for some survivability, extra pets and the leadership pool - beyond Omega Maneuver it really had no unique powers/tactics I couldn't get from a normal AT. If Banes/NWidows just play like stalkers/scrappers with some extra ranged abilities, or Fortunata plays like my Mind/Psi Dom with added defence/damage or my Psy/MM Blaster with extra defence/control, then I'll be somewhat disappointed - I want new tactical possibilities from an epic AT - a new challenge.
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Also feel i didn't bring anything to the team. Average Damage, some sort of control, poor tanking, but not all at once.
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Well, as I've said, I think it's a mistake to tar Warshades with the "average damage" tag - most of the time my Warshade can do more damage, more accurately and more safely than my Blaster (Archery/Energy, which is quite a high damage blaster combo for AE damage - though sure the Blaster can out-burst the Warshade, as it should) - I certainly can't think of another archetype that can get near and even reach its damage, ToHit and resist caps reliably and often, without external buffing or abusing inspirations in a big way.
A Warshade with poor damage is a Warshade that either isn't being played well or has been poorly built, or built for something other than damage - but tbh dealing damage is the only thing a Warshade can be really good at - which as far as I'm concerned puts it in the same category as stalkers, blasters, scrappers and most brutes in terms of teaming. Do they not bring anything to a team either? They obviously do, even though it's not direct support of teammates.
Sure, it's fine for people to dislike Warshades or the tri-form playstyle, but they can't then complain the archetype isn't doing what they want it to (high damage) when it's capable of that via one of its many possible playstyles - that would be like complaining a stalker did poor damage because you didn't like using Hide & Assassin Strike, or complaining a Storm Defender/Corruptor can't heal if you'd skipped O2 Boost.
If we're talking popularity then do dominators and stalkers also need revamps because they're not as popular as brutes, scrappers, etc?
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Fact is kheld changes are a-coming and Im looking forward to them
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Link, plx!
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link is in my post above, there are others on the US boards by the red names
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As far as Positron is concerned EATs are not commercially viable. Full stop. He isn't going to alocate time for a major rework. And there is no major rework that would make keldians significantly more popular anyway, unless you throw out the Jack of all Trades master of none concept completly, and have them specialise in something: I.e. delete them and replace with a completly different HEAT.
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Time IS being spent on them, go trawl the dev digest, theres been a few nice little snippets over the last few months. In the link I provided castle says he cant talk about it but its still on shedule.
mez protection in human form would be a massive boon for most
being less dependant on the inherant would also be a good thing, they grossly overestimated its effectiveness which is why in i3 khelds came with a inherant -30% res to all when unteamed. They know the game isnt all teaming now and forced teaming to get the most out of your character is not a good approach.
Increase dwarf damage
Increase nova resistence/HPs
and then you have a massively atrractive character in all 3 forms, one that is hampered only by lack of slots which is its achilles heel as you will not be able to effectively take advantage of all the good stuff at their disposal. So you can specialise or be the jack of all trades. Nothing TOO major but significant enough changes not to malign any mode.
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If we're talking popularity then do dominators and stalkers also need revamps because they're not as popular as brutes, scrappers, etc?
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uhhhh yes? did you miss the constant buffing of doms since i6 to the permadom gods they can be today? or the plethora of changes to stalkers? See how thats working? They make the unpopular more attractive.
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'Hover' would help with the Warshades 'Teleport' power, removing the 2 second to teleport or you fall effect.
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which you only needed if you are cack handed (and its 4 seconds). In which case you can:
1) Play a PB instead
2) Travel in nova form
3) Take superspeed or SJ
4) Travel in Nebulous Form
Hover = wasted power pick, certainly wouldn't help with balance.
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'Air Superiority' seems to be constantly suggested as a good additional power,
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Air Sup isn't a bad power, but it isn't as good at powers in the PB primary, so again, it would be a wasted power pick, actually making you weaker, not stronger if you took it.
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Absolutely sucks if you're a HEAT, because you would be making every other AT even stronger!
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Sounds to me like you have never played a keldian - they get far more powers than they can slot (from 2 up to 12 more than any other AT), so giving up a power pick for enhancement slots would be a major benefit.
However most other ATs are desperete for power picks, and have sufficent slots, few non keldian builds would benefit by exchanging a power for more enhancement slots.
I really should do something about this signature.